Clarifying what "our garbage" really is

[BballTim]

Three million is a reasonable price for Davis' skillset. If we could get him at that number, I'd be interested in keeping him.

I hope you're right about the trade exceptions. That adds a little weight to the bag of expirings we have to offer someone this summer up to the deadline next year.

  Does anyone know if the two trade exceptions can be combined? They can't be combined with salaries in a trade, right?

[CoachBo]

garbage is pruitt, giddens and walker...basically the last 2 out of three drafts for boston

How can you know about players that haven't played meaningful minutes yet?

If these players were playing 25-30 minutes for some crappy team everybody'd be suggesting we trade our expiring for THEM.

This idea always vexes me.

The notion that Doc and the staff don't know whether our kids can play because WE haven't seen them play is seriously flawed, but it's an idea that keeps popping up on Celtics sites. It shouldn't, because it's nonsense.

Rivers and the staff see them every day in practice. These guys aren't getting minutes.

There's a cause and effect relationship.

It's very "high school parentish" in nature. I hear that a lot, "You don't know if my kid can play because he never gets any varsity time."

  That's not exactly what he's saying, though. Stick Walker on a crappy team, where they can be more interested in developing young players than winning games and he might get decent minutes. Doesn't mean that he should get them here. Give him a steady 10-15 minutes a game somewhere far from Boston and there would be plenty of people here clamoring for Danny to trade for him.

Funny. I don't see him saying that. I see you saying that.

When he says that, we'll pursue that point, since it's highly subjective.

[JBcat]

Three million is a reasonable price for Davis' skillset. If we could get him at that number, I'd be interested in keeping him.

I hope you're right about the trade exceptions. That adds a little weight to the bag of expirings we have to offer someone this summer up to the deadline next year.

  Does anyone know if the two trade exceptions can be combined? They can't be combined with salaries in a trade, right?

I thought you could but maybe I'm wrong. 

[BballTim]

garbage is pruitt, giddens and walker...basically the last 2 out of three drafts for boston

How can you know about players that haven't played meaningful minutes yet?

If these players were playing 25-30 minutes for some crappy team everybody'd be suggesting we trade our expiring for THEM.

This idea always vexes me.

The notion that Doc and the staff don't know whether our kids can play because WE haven't seen them play is seriously flawed, but it's an idea that keeps popping up on Celtics sites. It shouldn't, because it's nonsense.

Rivers and the staff see them every day in practice. These guys aren't getting minutes.

There's a cause and effect relationship.

It's very "high school parentish" in nature. I hear that a lot, "You don't know if my kid can play because he never gets any varsity time."

  That's not exactly what he's saying, though. Stick Walker on a crappy team, where they can be more interested in developing young players than winning games and he might get decent minutes. Doesn't mean that he should get them here. Give him a steady 10-15 minutes a game somewhere far from Boston and there would be plenty of people here clamoring for Danny to trade for him.

Funny. I don't see him saying that. I see you saying that.

When he says that, we'll pursue that point, since it's highly subjective.

  Maybe you're right. But 3 years ago we were giving steady minutes to players like Gerald Green and Alan Ray. I don't think it's far-fetched to think that Walker could be playing on a crappy team. I just think that's different from the "Doc should play Walker and Giddens more" posts.

[LooseCannon]

  Maybe you're right. But 3 years ago we were giving steady minutes to players like Gerald Green and Alan Ray. I don't think it's far-fetched to think that Walker could be playing on a crappy team. I just think that's different from the "Doc should play Walker and Giddens more" posts.

Three years ago, the Celtics had a ton of injuries and were tanking to move up to get more ping pong balls.

This past season, Giddens and Walker got about seven minutes per game each.  As a rookie, Leon Powe got 11 mpg (although it was the tanking season).   As a rookie, Glen Davis got 13 mpg (how much of that was garbage time?).  You could say that the Celtics didn't have much other options for backup bigs, but then why didn't Walker and Giddens capitalize when Tony Allen's 18-19 mpg were lost to injury during the season?

Right now, I am willing to accept the coaching staff's apparent assessment that, through last season, Walker and Giddens (and Pruitt) were less capable of contributing than Tony Allen.  (Folks, there is such a thing as a worse player than Tony Allen, believe it or not).

Come to think of it, if Tony Allen had never been a Celtic and were getting 30 mpg on some scrub team, there would probably be people on this board saying this his flashes of athleticism and ability to provide some good defense when he's not doing something stupid are sufficient promise for the Celtics to package some expiring contracts for him.

[BballTim]

  Maybe you're right. But 3 years ago we were giving steady minutes to players like Gerald Green and Alan Ray. I don't think it's far-fetched to think that Walker could be playing on a crappy team. I just think that's different from the "Doc should play Walker and Giddens more" posts.

Three years ago, the Celtics had a ton of injuries and were tanking to move up to get more ping pong balls.

This past season, Giddens and Walker got about seven minutes per game each.  As a rookie, Leon Powe got 11 mpg (although it was the tanking season).   As a rookie, Glen Davis got 13 mpg (how much of that was garbage time?).  You could say that the Celtics didn't have much other options for backup bigs, but then why didn't Walker and Giddens capitalize when Tony Allen's 18-19 mpg were lost to injury during the season?

Right now, I am willing to accept the coaching staff's apparent assessment that, through last season, Walker and Giddens (and Pruitt) were less capable of contributing than Tony Allen.  (Folks, there is such a thing as a worse player than Tony Allen, believe it or not).

Come to think of it, if Tony Allen had never been a Celtic and were getting 30 mpg on some scrub team, there would probably be people on this board saying this his flashes of athleticism and ability to provide some good defense when he's not doing something stupid are sufficient promise for the Celtics to package some expiring contracts for him.

  I'm not sure what to make of your post. You're saying that Walker and Giddens didn't earn playing time with the Celts last year which I agree with. You're saying that three years ago the Celts were a crappy team which I agree with. You're saying that if TA was on another team people here would want to trade for him which is similar to if Walker was on another team people would want to trade for him. But the overall tone of your post sounds like you're disagreeing with what I said.

[ToppersBsktball10]

This is our garbage


$10 says that he turned it over 2 seconds after this picture was taken...

[LarBrd33]

Koz,

By no means am I trying to speak for GKC, but I think the point he's trying to make is that expiring contracts are worth more than the talent of the player, and as such they can get you better talent in return. Expiring contracts have more value than ever in this economic climate where over half the teams lost money last year and the future looks even bleaker (just when everyone is trying to get cap room for 2010). Thus, it is not unreasonable to think that expirings could get back better talent from another team. In fact, when looking back at the history of trades in the NBA, there seems to more lop-sided deals driven by finances than deals that make sense for both sides. I'd also add that depending on what your definition of "trash" is, the C's have much more than 5.5 mil in expiring or team-option contracts.

Brian Scalabrine    $3,413,793
Eddie House       $2,862,000
Tony Allen       $2,500,000
J.R. Giddens       $1,028,880   
Gabe Pruitt       $825,497   
Bill Walker       $736,420               

Total          $9,116,590

I agree with you that the C's will not likely get a young stud for expiring contracts, especially if they are on a reasonable contract or rooky contract, but I definitely believe the C's can upgrade the talent on the bench significantly using expiring contracts.

I'll also give you a TP because I'm just that kind of guy.

$9,116,590?

Can't we take back up to 15% more?

so we can take back a player (or players) adding up to $10,484,078 if we trade that collection of expiring contracts, right?  Did I do my math wrong?

So what are the teams that could theoretically look to dump salary and what players would they theoretically look to dump?

Kings:

Andres Nocioni  $7,500,000 (4 years left)
Beno Udrih  $6,077,500 (4 years left)
Francisco Garcia  $5,800,000 (4 years left)

... those contracts are pretty crappy if you ask me.  None of those 3 guys are worth tying up cap space with.  I'm sure all could be had (I believe we could have traded for Nocioni last year, but we decided against it)... maybe two of them could be had if you also signed-and-traded Glen Davis?

Bobcats:

Gerald Wallace $9,075,000 (4 years left)
DeSagana Diop $6,031,800 (4 years left)
Emeka Okafor $10,538,937 (5 years left)
Boris Diaw $9,000,000 (3 years left)

... They also have Vlad and Nazr Mohammid signed for 2 years making around 6.5 mil each.  That's a lot of money dedicated to a crappy team.  A couple of those guys are maybe untouchable... maybe.  But Gerald Wallace for *crap* is exactly the kind of trade that we've seen in the past (Pau Gasol, Richard Jefferson, Shaq, etc)

Detroit:

Rip Hamilton: $11,625,000 (4 years)
A bit out of our price range unless we're doing something with Glen Davis?  Are they ready to dump Rip now that they have Ben Gordon?  Not likely... Not impossible, though...

Golden State:

Monta Ellis: $11,000,000 (5 years)
Andris Biedrins: $9,000,000 (5 years)
Correy Maggette: $8,937,931 (4 years)
Stephen Jackson: $7,650,000 (4 years)

Honestly don't know if they are a team looking to cut payroll.  Maggette might be the only option that makes a little sense. 

Houston:

Shane Battier: $6,864,200 (2 years)

Why dump Shane?  Who knows what the heck the Rockets are doing at this point.  Yao is possibly done for the season.  They could possibly just let McGrady expire... They lost Artest.  This season seems pretty doomed if you ask me.  They might be best just heading into next season with boatloads of cap space to make a run at the "class of 2010".  Clearing an extra 7 mil from their payroll (Shane) might be beneficial?

Clippers:

Chris Kaman: $10,400,000 (3 years)

I thought maybe he'd be an option, but trading away Zach Randolph makes it interesting.  I still think that if the Clippers were smart they would be trying to dump Baron Davis (12 mil, 4 years) for an expiring contract.  Then maybe trade Chris Kaman for our package of expiring contracts.  Why?... because they would be smart to build around Thorton, Griffin and Eric Gordon, tank the season for another top pick... and head into the 2010 offseason with craploads of caproom and the ultimate draw of being in Los Angeles.  Sure, they aren't the Lakers, but can you completely 100% rule out the possibility that Chris Bosh and LeBron decide to one-up Kobe in his own city by joining forces with Blake Griffin?  I can't...   

Chicago:

Kirk Hinrich: $9,500,000 (3 years)

I can't see why they would continue to pay him... they apparently have wanted to trade him for the last year, right? 

Hornets:

James Posey $6,031,800 (3 years)

I'm pretty positive we could have him for some expirings.  I'm pretty positive I still don't think he's worth the 3 years.  They want to trade him for a reason.  Danny made the right decision. 


New York:

Eddie Curry - $10,500,423 (2 years)
Jared Jeffries - $6,466,600 (2 years)

We don't want either of these losers.  New York clearly would love to dump either of these guys for expiring contracts, though.  They are the last pieces to the "summer of LeBron" puzzle.  They already have enough cap space to sign a superstar next offseason... but moving those guys would certainly help their chances of signing TWO...     How badly do they want to dump those guys?... enough to also give up one of their young prospects like Danilo Gallinari?   Beats me...


That's all I can think of at the moment.   There might be other options (multiple players from some team?)


Anything is possible, though.

   

House just picked up his player option, right?  At what point are we able to trade him?  Likewise, if we sign Glen Davis... at what point can we trade him without having the BYC thing? 

[Fafnir]

BYC applies for the first year of a new contract where a player had a large jump in salary.

So if we re-sign BBD, next year he'd much easier to trade. Assuming his contract doesn't end up being like Scal's, not expensive but unmoveable.

[LarBrd33]

BYC applies for the first year of a new contract where a player had a large jump in salary.

So if we re-sign BBD, next year he'd much easier to trade. Assuming his contract doesn't end up being like Scal's, not expensive but unmoveable.

yeah but it's going to be tough to move him a year from now when he's gained 75 pounds of pig lard.

[Fafnir]

BYC applies for the first year of a new contract where a player had a large jump in salary.

So if we re-sign BBD, next year he'd much easier to trade. Assuming his contract doesn't end up being like Scal's, not expensive but unmoveable.

yeah but it's going to be tough to move him a year from now when he's gained 75 pounds of pig lard.

Meh, if he's on a 10/3 deal it wouldn't be that bad. I don't think we have to assume all players are going to be like Antoine.

[Prof. Clutch]

yeah but it's going to be tough to move him a year from now when he's gained 75 pounds of pig lard.

Wow, just remembered how much you hate Big Baby.  We get it, we get it, he's fat and untalented...Are you gonna go into a deep depression when we resign him?  The worst part of bringing him back is that we're gonna have to read another few years of you unnecessarily bashing him.

Plus he's learning martial arts to lose weight.  He'll probably look something like this when he comes back next season:

[GKC]

yeah but it's going to be tough to move him a year from now when he's gained 75 pounds of pig lard.

Wow, just remembered how much you hate Big Baby.  We get it, we get it, he's fat and untalented...Are you gonna go into a deep depression when we resign him.  The worst part of bringing him back is that we're gonna have to read another few years of you unnecessarily bashing him.

Plus he's learning martial arts to lose weight.  He'll probably look something like this when he comes back next season:

There is always the fear that he might revert to his old eating habits after being paid, but I think we have enough guys in the gym that will push him.

[Prof. Clutch]

There is always the fear that he might revert to his old eating habits after being paid, but I think we have enough guys in the gym that will push him.

Oh, when I said he was going to look like this I meant he was going to suddenly be Asian.
 

[GKC]

There is always the fear that he might revert to his old eating habits after being paid, but I think we have enough guys in the gym that will push him.

Oh, when I said he was going to look like this I meant he was going to suddenly be Asian.
 

What's scary is that BBD's peak weight may have been close to this guy.