I love Tony Allen

[PosImpos]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

[Steve Weinman]

I must be blind because i don't see him make any more mistakes than anyone else on the floor, and never any TERRIBLE decisions.  When he's hot he will put up points faster than any other bench player.  Not to mention his steals, how can you steal the ball if you're an idiot that doesn't understand the game.

Check out his turnover rate there chief.

Yeah dude, like 1 a game.  This is the freakin Boston Celtics, we average like 20 a game.  I know Rondo and Paul average almost 3. 

Turnover Rates:

Ray Allen - 8.9 (36.4 mpg)
Paul Pierce - 11.7 (37.5 mpg)
Tony Allen - 16.2 (19.3 mpg)

So uh...still want to tell me Tony's as turnover prone as they are?  

Plus, even if he were, he's not an asset in tons of other ways the way they are.

I never said he was a good distributor, of course he's never gonna assists like Paul and Rondo do; he's never really in a position to.  I'm just saying turnovers happen, and i bet the majority of TA's turnovers have been in the past 3 seasons when he's been battling injuries and getting very little minutes.  When you haven't been playing recently you literally have 0 confidence, that's why he tries to get rid of the ball.  Once you get in a grove it's much easier to take the ball in your own hands and try to make something happen.  Tommy's said this before about guys like Pruitt, when you know Doc's probably gonna take you out if you miss some shots you don't have the confidence to take them.
Also, when does Ray even get a chance to turn the ball over?  He never gets the ball inside the arc and usually shoots as soon as he catches it.

Turnover rate doesn't always mean someones a good distributor. It's a % of possessions that become turnovers, and that is pretty high. And that's the point; most of it doesn't even come from distributing. Boneheaded plays from offensive fouls or being stripped going at the rim. Ray? He has many chances to turn the ball over; he sometimes even plays point. He does have the curle-drive-mid range jumper. The reason Ray doesnt have the "chance" to turn the ball over, is because he's smart enough not to give the defense those chances. Tony's driving has become too easy to strip, and his outside shot just isn't good enough for defenders not to stay off him (22% 3pt shooting this year).

I just think he's had a long time to prove himself, and he hasn't. Does nobody remember game 5 of the Bulls-Celtics series with him fouling BG 29 feet away from the basket for 3 ft's to tie it?

All right well Tony doesn't get many possessions, so ANY turnovers is gonna jack up his rate right?

Funny thing about that - TA's usage rate, an estimate of what percentage of the team's possessions he "uses" (it's a *weighted* combination of FGAs, FTAs, TOs and ASTs, if memory serves) when he is on the floor, was 21.5 in 2008-09, trailing only Pierce and Garnett of players who received any significant minutes on this year's team.  

And yet his turnover percentage trailed only Marbury, Perk and Rondo of players receiving significant minutes.  That's two point guards and a center with a well-documented habit for bringing the ball down/walking/committing offensive fouls - but a center who also makes a number of other major contributions to this team.

For reasons that go far beyond his turnover rate, I've had more than enough of his act both on and off the court.  His exit is a major part of my three-pronged goal for this summer.

-sw

[Steve Weinman]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

Boooo, PI, you just took all the fun out of my impending trip through Basketball-Reference for obscure 12th man.   

Instead, that was considerably more effective and concise.  And will allow me to get to sleep shortly.  Good stuff. 

-sw

[GKC]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

I'll raise your Adam Morrison with a Darko Milicic (though at least Darko got to play in game 5 of the finals with the pistons up 20).

Seriously though;

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?playerId=2367

Not only has TA's turnover rate been high (and gotten slightly higher), his assist rate has gotten lower. This really only leads to 3 conclusions;


1) All his passes end up being picked off. Highly unlikely

2) He's looking less to pass yet turnovers go up. Probably because he's trying to bring the offense more and gets stripped a lot. A little more likely

3) He's looking less to pass yet turnovers go up. I'm thinking bad mistakes such as running into traffic, double-dribbles/losing dribbles, bad passes and offensive fouls. especially watching the bulls / celts series, very likely.

[PosImpos]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

Boooo, PI, you just took all the fun out of my impending trip through Basketball-Reference for obscure 12th man.   

Instead, that was considerably more effective and concise.  And will allow me to get to sleep shortly.  Good stuff. 

-sw

np, I have a feeling the "Even Adam Morrison has a ring" repartee will be a staple around here for quite some time.

[star18]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

That arguement is worthless. Morrison wasn't even in uniform for the 2009 Lakers playoffs.   Darko Milicic only played 8 minutes in the playoffs for the 2003-04 Pistons.  Tony Allen played 65 minutes in the 2007-08 playoffs.  He played in 90 out of the 108 games the Celtics played in 2007-08, one of the greatest Celtics teams ever.  He was IN UNIFORM for the entire 2007-08 season & playoffs.   Respect him for that.  Stop looking for Larry Bird and Kevin Garnett in every player who puts on a Celtics uniform.   Tony Allen was ON THE COURT When the gatorade spilled in victory for the greatest team of all-time to add to their lead with most championships ever won.  Respect the man for that.

[GKC]

That arguement is worthless. Morrison wasn't even in uniform for the 2009 Lakers playoffs.   Darko Milicic only played 8 minutes in the playoffs for the 2003-04 Pistons.  Tony Allen played 65 minutes in the 2007-08 playoffs.  He played in 90 out of the 108 games the Celtics played in 2007-08, one of the greatest Celtics teams ever.  He was IN UNIFORM for the entire 2007-08 season & playoffs.   Respect him for that.  Stop looking for Larry Bird and Kevin Garnett in every player who puts on a Celtics uniform.   Tony Allen was ON THE COURT When the gatorade spilled in victory for the greatest team of all-time to add to their lead with most championships ever won.  Respect the man for that.

I don't think anyone is disrespecting Tony for what he was in 07-08. We're just disrespecting them for what he didn't become in 08-09

In the 07-08 season, especially during the playoffs, Tony Allen was the 5th option off the bench. Watch the playoffs from the Cleveland series onwards, and the rotation was generally PJ / Powe / Posey / Eddie (or Sam) / Pierce or Ray. Rarely was Tony in the benches 15-20 minute rotation, with Doc opting to have a starter go with the 4 (this was especially evident in the finals). And that's fine. Tony Allen, as a 10th man off the bench, did what he had to do to get us where we went.

However, last year with the lost of many bench players, we needed Tony to join the main bench rotation, and at least from a 2/3 position perspective be the alpha dog, and become Posey. He did not do that.

I like Tony as the final guy off the bench of as a foul-trouble minute soaker. As the main backup for Ray and Pierce however? I think it's clear we need to do better.

[PosImpos]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

That arguement is worthless. Morrison wasn't even in uniform for the 2009 Lakers playoffs.   Darko Milicic only played 8 minutes in the playoffs for the 2003-04 Pistons.  Tony Allen played 65 minutes in the 2007-08 playoffs.  He played in 90 out of the 108 games the Celtics played in 2007-08, one of the greatest Celtics teams ever.  He was IN UNIFORM for the entire 2007-08 season & playoffs.   Respect him for that.  Stop looking for Larry Bird and Kevin Garnett in every player who puts on a Celtics uniform.   Tony Allen was ON THE COURT When the gatorade spilled in victory for the greatest team of all-time to add to their lead with most championships ever won.  Respect the man for that.

All of our end of the bench guys were on the court when we won the championship...we were up by almost 40 points....

The fact is, we would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen.

[star18]

I don't think the 08-09 season is a way to disresepct Tony.  Check his numbers for the 07-08 playoffs & the 08-09 playoffs.  65 minutes in 08, 60 minutes in 09.  Now with Garnett & Powe out, Tony should have gotten more minutes in 09.  However his numbers were about the same in 08 & 09 playoffs. AND he ONLY had 2 TURNOVERS in 125 minutes of playoff action in 08 & 09.  The way some people write on here you would think he had 30 turnovers.    His numbers from 07-08 regular season to 08-09 season actually improved a bit, he shot better at FG% and scored a bit more per 36 minutes.  He played well in the beginning of the 2009 season, and just came back for the last 6 games of the season in 09, people forget about that.   

[GKC]

I don't think the 08-09 season is a way to disresepct Tony.  Check his numbers for the 07-08 playoffs & the 08-09 playoffs.  65 minutes in 08, 60 minutes in 09.  Now with Garnett & Powe out, Tony should have gotten more minutes in 09.  However his numbers were about the same in 08 & 09 playoffs. AND he ONLY had 2 TURNOVERS in 125 minutes of playoff action in 08 & 09.  The way some people write on here you would think he had 30 turnovers.    His numbers from 07-08 regular season to 08-09 season actually improved a bit, he shot better at FG% and scored a bit more per 36 minutes.  He played well in the beginning of the 2009 season, and just came back for the last 6 games of the season in 09, people forget about that.   

His turnovers are just to show his bad decisions. There are things that don't show up on the stat sheet like the end of the game bricking 2 runners in game 4 against chicago, or fouling ben gordon 29 feet from the basket when he had BG courtside with the shot clock winding down.

I think it's fair to use the regular season to prove how turnover prone he is since this years playoff's isn't enough of a large sample size to prove anything.

[star18]

C'mon Celtics Fans, Dude has a ring you have to respect him for that.    TA WILL BE ON THE CELTICS FOREVER!!

Adam Morrison has a ring.

Next argument.

That arguement is worthless. Morrison wasn't even in uniform for the 2009 Lakers playoffs.   Darko Milicic only played 8 minutes in the playoffs for the 2003-04 Pistons.  Tony Allen played 65 minutes in the 2007-08 playoffs.  He played in 90 out of the 108 games the Celtics played in 2007-08, one of the greatest Celtics teams ever.  He was IN UNIFORM for the entire 2007-08 season & playoffs.   Respect him for that.  Stop looking for Larry Bird and Kevin Garnett in every player who puts on a Celtics uniform.   Tony Allen was ON THE COURT When the gatorade spilled in victory for the greatest team of all-time to add to their lead with most championships ever won.  Respect the man for that.

All of our end of the bench guys were on the court when we won the championship...we were up by almost 40 points....

The fact is, we would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen.

Now let me ask you this question would we have won the championships with or without Sam Cassell? How do you know? How about BBD? Could someone have replaced him and us won the title also? Bottom line is you don't know.  How do you know we would have won Game 4 of the 2008 Finals without Tony? If we lose Game 4 of that series go back to Boston down 3-2 could we have lost? I doubt it, but you don't know.  Do you know what Tony did in Game 4.   Check the stats.   2:14 minutes, +10.   THE 10-0 run late in the 3rd QTR that finally got us back in the game and into single digits.   Do we win Game 4 without Tony.  You don't know.   We would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen. That is your opinion, it is not a fact.

[star18]

Now let me ask you this question would we have won the championships with or without Sam Cassell? How do you know? How about BBD? Could someone have replaced him and us won the title also? Bottom line is you don't know.  How do you know we would have won Game 4 of the 2008 Finals without Tony? If we lose Game 4 of that series go back to Boston down 3-2 could we have lost? I doubt it, but you don't know.  Do you know what Tony did in Game 4.   Check the stats.   2:14 minutes, +10.   THE 10-0 run late in the 3rd QTR that finally got us back in the game and into single digits.   Do we win Game 4 without Tony.  You don't know.   We would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen. That is your opinion, it is not a fact.

[star18]

I don't go for that end of the Game 4 or 6 or whatever it was against Chicago where he threw up 2 bricks.   There were 5 seconds left on the shot clock, the ball should have been in Paul or Ray's hands.  That is an unfair example to give about Tony.  That is what I am talking about.  People incorrectly estimate his role.  He misses 2 shots at the end of a playoff game and he is the worst player in the world.  Really.  Tony Allen is the captain of our team? I thought that was Paul.

[GKC]

Now let me ask you this question would we have won the championships with or without Sam Cassell? How do you know? How about BBD? Could someone have replaced him and us won the title also? Bottom line is you don't know.  How do you know we would have won Game 4 of the 2008 Finals without Tony? If we lose Game 4 of that series go back to Boston down 3-2 could we have lost? I doubt it, but you don't know.  Do you know what Tony did in Game 4.   Check the stats.   2:14 minutes, +10.   THE 10-0 run late in the 3rd QTR that finally got us back in the game and into single digits.   Do we win Game 4 without Tony.  You don't know.   We would have won the championship with or without Tony Allen. That is your opinion, it is not a fact.

I think you watch the game and you can tell right? It was 2:14 minutes with 1 rebound. That is why +/- is such an uneven stat and without any adjustments, it's a very hard stat to use. He has a higher +/- than PJ Brown, who played solid defense when Perk was in foul trouble and had the dunk at the Buzzer as what I thought (besides Eddie's short jumper) that shifted the momentum of the series.

But I think your stat proves our point. Tony played 2 and a half minutes. That's the role he took in the entire 2008 playoffs. That was fine with us.

However, the role we want him to take now (or tried to) was Posey's 18-25  minute role, which he was unable to comfortable fit into. And that's the role we need to fill now.

---

Just saw your reply: You missed the foul on Gordon the game after. I mean, there is a reason why Tony was almost gone from the rotation after that.

[star18]

I do not agree.    Game 4 NBA Finals 2008.   2:14 to go.  Lakers are up 73-61.  From the start of the game the Lakers were up 24 early in the 2nd.  We kept battling, and battling for 2 quarters and couldn't get within single digits.  With just 2 minutes to go in the 3rd all the Lakers had to do was trade baskets and they would have taken a double digit lead into the 4th.  They could have won that game.  You don't know. Doc puts in Tony and boom within 2 minutes the lead is down to 2 points, something the Celtics were trying to for half a game and couldn't get it done.   With Tony in the game we did it in 2 minutes.  It was the most important 2:14 in Celtics basketball history in the past 22 years because it was the run that finally gave us the chance to get over on the Lakers and finally beat them again.  It was because Tony was on the court, he brings an added dimension. The rest of the guys on the floor played great during that run, and the other 4 guys got psyched up knowing Tony was in the game.

On the foul on Ben Gordon, Tony had good defense on Ben, enough to make Ben step out of bounds, so I don't go for that play.  Just because the refs didn't call it right doesn't mean Tony made a bad play.

And when you say we want him to take the Posey 18-25 minutes role now I do not agree. We wanted him to do that last year.  This year we do not need him for that role.  That was last year. Now we have Big Sheed.