Author Topic: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.  (Read 7400 times)

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Offline nickagneta

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I've read on this blog, ad nauseum, how Doc didn't play the youngsters and doesn't trust them and has a history of not playing young players. I've read how we have to "Free Gabe" and "Free Walker" and "Free JR". I've read that playing the young guys needs to happen to develop them that they can't get better without playing time. I've read a lot of other stuff about the value of playing youth.

And I'm here to tell you it's all hogwash. Doc plays the players he feels he needs to play in order to win games. His job is judged on how well his team plays and just how many games his team wins. He has to play the best players to accomplish this.

What so many miss here is that Doc and his staff are there from the beginning watching these players through Summer League, through two-a-days in training camp, through preseason practices and games, through regular season practices and shootarounds, through after hour workouts and through games. By the time the season starts and then as the season progresses, Doc and his staff have seen their players play hundreds and then possibly multiple thousands of hours.

By observing them this much they see what they can do and what they can't. They see if they get how to move on the defensive rotations. They see if they play the pick and roll properly both offensively and defensively. They see if they run the open floor properly. They see if they understand what "making the extra pass" means. They see if they are ball dominat or to passive. They see all the strengths and all the flaws and they work to make their players and team better. And this means thousands of hours of practice, personal instruction, game film preparation, etc., etc.

So when it comes down to game time, 99% of the work has been done and the coach's job is then to use the correct combo of players to win games. I'm not telling you anything you don't know here.

But why is it that people feel that young players have to have playing time? Simply put if you are a young player and want to play you have to prove you are better than the guys in front of you on the depth chart. Coaches can't just give players playing time, they have to work for it and earn it. For every player you play who hasn't earned the right to play. the coach is going to have another player he has to explain to that, yes, he is better than that young player and has proven it in every way, but he has to play that player to develop him.

I'm sorry that just doesn't work. Telling Paul or Ray that they had to sit during a crucial time of the game that cost the team a win because JR Giddens had to play to develop is going to get Doc fired faster than a Rondo bullet pass. Why? Because players want to win and on championship pursuing teams, that's important.

If players want playing time they have to prove they deserve that time in practice and shootarounds. They have to prove they can make the right decisions and rotations and passes in practice. They have to show they can box out, switch on the pick and roll, set a proper screen, get the rebound and make the shot in practice. Honestly, if a player isn't getting the job done in practice against someone he plays against every day, who he knows what his tendencies, strengths and weaknesses are, then why should he play in a game where he can continue to make the same mistakes that will hurt his team?

Please people, enough with the (player X) has to be played by Doc to develop. That isn't the way it works in team sports. It's the reason people have sat on the bench since youth ball. The best players that continually show they are the best through practice and performance are the ones that play....regardless of age and regardless of whether they need to develop. If they need to develop so much then they need to get "IT" in practice and show the coach they deserve those minutes.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2009, 08:43:08 AM »

Offline Jon

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Philosophically I agree with you.  However, I do think that due to this team's age, we may want to play the youth more simply to ensure that the Big Three aren't gassed come playoff time. 

If Ainge is able to round out a good veteran bench, then this really isn't a concern anymore.  However, if for some reason we go into this season with T. Allen, Giddens, and Walker as the backups at the 2/3, then by all means I will be pushing for them to play.  We can't afford to go into the playoffs this year with Pierce (and to an extent, Allen) looking like they did last year. 

Might that cost us some games?  Yes.  However, this is good enough to blow a few close games and still win 55-60 games. 

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2009, 08:46:10 AM »

Offline toinewalka

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I couldn't agree more.  I read so much about how a backup PG isn't important because it will take time away from developing Pruit and so on.  I feel like we have seen some Pruit minutes out there and I haven't been overly impressed.  I know people are going to fight me on this and say he needs minutes, but if that's the case, he needs a new team instead.  We need to stop worrying about him becoming a good backup PG behind Rondo in 4-5 years and start worrying about who's going to be the best backup PG behind Rondo in 4-5 months.  In a blowout game these guys can go in and prove it.  We saw Walker get some minutes here and there because of his work ethic and what he was accomplishing at practice.  Everyone has that opportunity, its up to them.  

While we're at it.  I have a simliar feeling about the way people look at Vets in the league.  Everyone always claims that you need to add a good Vet big man to solidify a roster, or a Vet PG to control things.  I can see this argument for a Blazers team (or Thunder maybe this year) that is trying to compete and has a chance with a bunch of 21-24 year olds, that's not us, not the Lakers, not the Cavs, not even the Magic.  The Cavs added Joe Smith and got NOTHING out of him in the post season.  We added Miki Moore and got NOTHING.  Year before, we add Cassell and get NOTHING.  Even P.J. Brown.  The only reason that worked out was because he played unbelievable defense and hit one HUGE shot.  Overall however, he wasn't what really pushed that team bast the brink, and it certainly wasn't his savy Veteran mind.

Veteran simply means the guy has been around a while, and that means that he is on the decline/breaking down.  Saying the guy is a winner means nothing.  The best team wins, and the best team has the best and healthiest players.  Adding and older guy because he knows how to win is garbage to me.  Doleac won a championship with the Heat, should we bang down his door.  He is a Vet big man that apparently knows how to win?

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 08:47:20 AM »

Offline Global Celtic

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Doc is old-fashioned. He simply doesn't play rookies/youngs if he's got veterans.

I remember the first couple seasons of Big Al and last year with Bill Walker (was Boy Boy Tony Allen a better option??).

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 08:52:49 AM »

Offline bobdelt

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For the playoffs - yes you're correct.

For the regular season - you're not. The regular season is to prepare for the playoffs. Our younger guys need experience. The older guys have it.

It's ok if we lose a couple games having inexperienced players on the court. Because the next time, they'll be ready, or at least closer to being ready.

You need to at least give the younger guys a chance.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 09:01:15 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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For the playoffs - yes you're correct.

For the regular season - you're not. The regular season is to prepare for the playoffs. Our younger guys need experience. The older guys have it.

It's ok if we lose a couple games having inexperienced players on the court. Because the next time, they'll be ready, or at least closer to being ready.

You need to at least give the younger guys a chance.
But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games?

Six years later through tons and tons of hours of practice and instruction and game time, Kendrick Perkins is still, night in and night out, making stupid fouls and not going straight up with his shot when he gets the ball in the low post. Increased playing time hasn't stopped him from continuing these flaws. Luckily, his strengths outweigh those weaknesses.

But, other young players might not have the strengths that outweigh the weaknesses in practice and hence don't deserve to be on the court because their weaknesses could be fatal flaws that just can't be fixed with playing time. Coaches see these things in practice and don't need to prove them to us by losing game and playing players that don't deserve to play.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 09:02:16 AM »

Offline toinewalka

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Quote
For the playoffs - yes you're correct.

For the regular season - you're not. The regular season is to prepare for the playoffs. Our younger guys need experience. The older guys have it.

It's ok if we lose a couple games having inexperienced players on the court. Because the next time, they'll be ready, or at least closer to being ready.

Completely Incorrect.

You would rather be playing game 7 in CLE or ORL so that Gabe can run around for a couple of minutes a game, maybe hit a shot, and pick up a few assist and a pat on the back?  I don't think so.  Every other team is playing their best players.  Their best players might be a little younger than ours, but unless they have no prayer of a championship, they are playing their best guys, and there's a reason for it.  

Doc is responsible for one thing, he gets paid to get us a ring, and so does Danny.  If they wawnt to babysit and develope these young guys, costing us a couple of wins (what seperated us last year and the year before for 1st/2nd place), they will get flack for it and it might cost them their job.  Play the best guys, win the most games, get a ring.

As far as resting the starters, of course you need a backup, but that is a completely differnt argument.  Bring in a guy or play Tony Allen or maybe Bill Walker a little (who showed he's not afraid and can handle it) and buy PP and Ray a few minutes a game.  Not a big deal.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 09:16:05 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Doc is old-fashioned. He simply doesn't play rookies/youngs if he's got veterans.

I remember the first couple seasons of Big Al and last year with Bill Walker (was Boy Boy Tony Allen a better option??).
I've always thought he's done a great job developing young talent in his coaching career.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 09:20:14 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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How many games did we lose because we gave Gabe, who clearly sucks as a PG, some minutes during the season?

Doc should take a look at his roster, and see that there's a problem with our back-up 3/4 situation, you have to prepare players to assume those roles... he failed to do it.  By not giving him playing time during the season, you eliminate him as an option for the playoffs.

I have little problem with him not being played during the playoffs, I do have a problem with Doc not preparing him to be an option for the playoffs.

He was the tool that was given, and he was misused.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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How many games did we lose because we gave Gabe, who clearly sucks as a PG, some minutes during the season?

Doc should take a look at his roster, and see that there's a problem with our back-up 3/4 situation, you have to prepare players to assume those roles... he failed to do it.  By not giving him playing time during the season, you eliminate him as an option for the playoffs.

I have little problem with him not being played during the playoffs, I do have a problem with Doc not preparing him to be an option for the playoffs.

He was the tool that was given, and he was misused.
Here's the problem. The tool given Doc was a impact socket wrench and what Doc needed was a reciprocating saw.

If the player doesn't have what it takes to play and be successful and has proven it time and again in practice, then no amount of game time is going to turn them into the players needed to be successful. The end result will be that the C's will lose more games than they needed to lose, the vets will be angered because they sat while watching scrubs hand over leads game after game, there will be definite locker room tension and probably an earlier exit out of the playoffs.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 09:27:30 AM »

Offline Jon

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To go back to my original post, I don't think developing Gabe, Giddens, Walker, etc. is all that important for the playoffs if the C's actually sign a few vets.  If the C's get say Wallace and Hill, come playoff time Wallace will get all the backup minutes at the 4 and 5 spots and Hill all the backup minutes at the 2 and 3 spots, so Giddens and Walker aren't going to play anyway.  And Rondo is going to play 40 mpg in the playoffs.  House can back him up for the other 8.  So Pruitt isn't going to get off the bench either.  

However, if we were to get someone like Hill, I don't think we want to see him, along with PP and Ray, get big minutes in the regular season.  So in the interest of that, I would play Giddens or Walker 5-10 mpg in order to prevent overplaying all three.  

And to me, having a rested PP and Ray for the playoffs IS worth playing game 7 in Orlando or Cleveland.  

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 09:28:22 AM »

Offline toinewalka

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Quote
He was the tool that was given, and he was misused.

I'm not sure that's the case.  I think Pruit, at this point in his career, has very limited NBA tools.  His ballhandling, shooting, decision making, rebounding, defending, everything is below average for an NBA PG.  Why throw him out there on a team where these is better options, and a chance to go out and get better optoins for a championship.  

The only case I will make for playing young players because they are young is in two situations:

1)  You are a bad team and have no chance of making the playoffs.  Let them compete, let them learn, let them fail (which they will), and hopefully (but not always) they will learn from it.  WE AREN'T THAT TEAM.
2)  If you have two very simliar players, one being young and one begin a vet, and the vet has no quams about being a backup and teaching.  Once again, WE AREN'T THAT TEAM.

For those of you keeping track at home, taht's 2-0 in favor of playing the better player on the Celtics.  This isn't the Thunder/Grizzlies/Kings blog last time I checked.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 09:31:03 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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How many games did we lose because we gave Gabe, who clearly sucks as a PG, some minutes during the season?

Doc should take a look at his roster, and see that there's a problem with our back-up 3/4 situation, you have to prepare players to assume those roles... he failed to do it.  By not giving him playing time during the season, you eliminate him as an option for the playoffs.

I have little problem with him not being played during the playoffs, I do have a problem with Doc not preparing him to be an option for the playoffs.

He was the tool that was given, and he was misused.
Here's the problem. The tool given Doc was a impact socket wrench and what Doc needed was a reciprocating saw.

If the player doesn't have what it takes to play and be successful and has proven it time and again in practice, then no amount of game time is going to turn them into the players needed to be successful. The end result will be that the C's will lose more games than they needed to lose, the vets will be angered because they sat while watching scrubs hand over leads game after game, there will be definite locker room tension and probably an earlier exit out of the playoffs.

That we'll lose more games is simply an exaggeration. You manage games, there are plenty of times within games where you can put players to get some minutes in without risking much.

Practice and playing time are completely different, and so are the experiences. Also, from everything that was being reported, Walker was doing quite good in practices. Still raw in some departments, but certainly ready to be given some consistent minutes here and there.

Doc didn't stop playing House when he was being killed by the Bulls guards. Scal and Baby kept playing even though they were being destroyed by Lewis.

How do you explain Mikki Moore being given playing time during the season? He clearly sucked in our defensive rotations.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 09:36:41 AM »

Offline Casperian

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I want them to play the guys that deserve to play. The best players, not the youngest.
In the summer of 2017, I predicted this team would not win a championship for the next 10 years.

3 down, 7 to go.

Re: To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2009, 09:37:19 AM »

Offline Chief

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I think our assistant coaches develop young players very well. I don't give Doc much credit for that. I think Doc just does not trust young players. We've seen Rondo, Perkins, Gomes, Powe, Walker, and Big AL get stuck on the bench in favor of veterans. Foolishly this year, Doc tried to gain home court advantage instead of resting Ray and Paul down the stretch. Home court ended being meaningless because Ray and Paul ran out of gas midway through the playoff run.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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