To play or to not to play (youth that is)? That is the question.

[Michael Anthony]

Are we talking about practice? Practice! Are you asking me about practice?

For the most part, I agree that the coaching staff is capable of making playing time decisions - they did a nice job with our second round bigs and our late first rounders over the years. But they occasionally make mistakes. We had two small forwards on the roster laster season, and Doc insisted on playing TA and Scalabrine (Who, if combined, would be an amazing basketball player) instead of Bill Walker.

I am not saying Walker is the second coming, but in a situation where all alternatives stink, is it not best to spend time on the one most likely to improve?

[toinewalka]

Scal and Baby kept playing even though they were being destroyed by Lewis.

Who were we supposed to put in.  You just said that Moore sucked in our rotations.  And everyone else was hurt.  Should we have gotten Pruit some solid experience playing the 5 in the playoffs?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I want them to play the guys that deserve to play. The best players, not the youngest.

Sadly, not always the ones that deserve or are the best are not the ones that play, regardless of age. The NBA, and pretty much all sports, are littered with more deserving players eating the bench for some reason or another.

Scal and Baby kept playing even though they were being destroyed by Lewis.

Who were we supposed to put in.  You just said that Moore sucked in our rotations.  And everyone else was hurt.  Should we have gotten Pruit some solid experience playing the 5 in the playoffs?

Why do you keep bringing up Pruitt... Pruitt sucks. Walker could've been an option had he been given playing time during the season. He wasn't, so he wasn't an option. Would he have succeeded? Who knows. Lewis isn't a 5, he's more of a 4/3.

[nickagneta]

I want them to play the guys that deserve to play. The best players, not the youngest.

Sadly, not always the ones that deserve or are the best are not the ones that play, regardless of age. The NBA, and pretty much all sports, are littered with more deserving players eating the bench for some reason or another.

Scal and Baby kept playing even though they were being destroyed by Lewis.

Who were we supposed to put in.  You just said that Moore sucked in our rotations.  And everyone else was hurt.  Should we have gotten Pruit some solid experience playing the 5 in the playoffs?

Why do you keep bringing up Pruitt... Pruitt sucks. Walker could've been an option had he been given playing time during the season. He wasn't, so he wasn't an option. Would he have succeeded? Who knows. Lewis isn't a 5, he's more of a 4/3.

What exactly has Walker shown that you keep bringing him up?

He showed me he can mistime a jump for attempting a flashy putback dunk rather than waiting that extra half second and securing the rebound for a lay in put back or kick out to restart the offense.

He showed me he can completely show up late on the rotation and then have to give a foul on a layup for a three point play rather than making the rotation at the proper time and being in a position to stop the shot.

He showed me his outside shot is less consistent than Rondo's.

He showed me that he is easily fooled by veteran moves to the basket.

He showed me he doesn't get it yet.

Besides some flashy dunks, exactly what he he shown that gives you any idea that he is better than Scal or Tony, both players that I think are seriously flawed and weak options?

[BudweiserCeltic]

This is not about being better than them. This is about him being at the very least prepared to contribute if needed, making him an option for the playoffs... he simply wasn't. I'm quite sure he would've guarded Lewis much better.

Anyways, we can't go forward with this discussion until someone here can explain why Moore was given extensive playing time during the season when he clearly wasn't getting it.

[bobdelt]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.
How do you know this?

No matter how many times you do something in practice - it's different in the game. If you don't know this, you've never played sports.

2nd - if these guys can't do it in practice, they should be cut. I dont think its the case of them not doing things correctly in practice - but not handling the intensity of real NBA game. Also, the talent just might not be there, which then of course they don't play.


But you have to give a chance for the players to learn on their own and to gain experience, even if it means a loss.

And yes, this means having BBD brick jump shots during the regular season, if it means he might make them in the play offs. 

[nickagneta]

This is not about being better than them. This is about him being at the very least prepared to contribute if needed, making him an option for the playoffs... he simply wasn't. I'm quite sure he would've guarded Lewis much better.

Anyways, we can't go forward with this discussion until someone here can explain why Moore was given extensive playing time during the season when he clearly wasn't getting it.

Did it ever occur to you he wasn't an option for the playoffs because he just isn't good enough to play?

I don't get it. Doc sees these guys in practice and other situation for thousands of hours. Are you saying he is incapable of judging who is good enough to play in the playoffs or incapable of developing talent? Because his track record shows otherwise.

Walker didn't play during the season and wasn't ready to play in the playoffs because he wasn't good enough.

Why is the simplest solution always the one that is first dismissed as being wrong when it is probably the obvious answer?

[nickagneta]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.

How do you know this?

Because the coach isn't playing them.

[BudweiserCeltic]

This is not about being better than them. This is about him being at the very least prepared to contribute if needed, making him an option for the playoffs... he simply wasn't. I'm quite sure he would've guarded Lewis much better.

Anyways, we can't go forward with this discussion until someone here can explain why Moore was given extensive playing time during the season when he clearly wasn't getting it.

Did it ever occur to you he wasn't an option for the playoffs because he just isn't good enough to play?

I don't get it. Doc sees these guys in practice and other situation for thousands of hours. Are you saying he is incapable of judging who is good enough to play in the playoffs or incapable of developing talent? Because his track record shows otherwise.

Walker didn't play during the season and wasn't ready to play in the playoffs because he wasn't good enough.

Why is the simplest solution always the one that is first dismissed as being wrong when it is probably the obvious answer?

Again, I have no problem with Walker not playing in the playoffs. I have a problem with him not being given the opportunity to become a contributor in this team, and he was pretty much eliminated as an option by not being given playing time. It was clear throughout the season that we needed some help in the 3/4 mold... Walker was the guy we had to fit that role, Doc should've made a better effort in making him an option so that he could do something when needed.

IF Walker was given some consistent minutes during the season, and he still shows no progress, he sucks, etc. then fine, Doc you did what you could. But in my opinion Doc didn't optimize the roster situation.

Again, how do you explain Moore getting minutes during the season? He was given minutes, and he didn't perform so Doc didn't play him during the playoffs. Excellent, great move by Doc... he did his job, he tried to get him ready for the playoffs, but the dude didn't respond. He could've done the same with Walker.

[Who]

The options Doc was given off the bench was shoddy. I don't mind the way he used Pruitt, but the wing was clearly a problem and Doc had lots of opportunities to give either Walker or Giddens some playing time.

There was no fourth wing off the bench, and Tony Allen isn't reliable. Doc should have been using Walker and Giddens to see if he can fast track their growth and hopefully be worth some minutes later on in the season ... when as it turns out, the Celtics actually needed them.

I thought he mishandled the situation. Not a grave mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

[nickagneta]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not. Giving them playing time during the season isn't going to change that. By playing them in games the only people Doc is proving to that Walker wasn't good enough is you. Coaches can see in practice whether a play is good enough or not, he doesn't eed to give a player time on the court to prove that.

Come on. How many young players that played under Doc that Doc didn't play ever became something when they went elsewhere? Gomes and Al was showing good stuff here and got playing time. Rondo and Leon and Perk and baby all developed under Doc. Ben Wallace played big minutes for Doc when he was young. Mike Miller played 33 MPG his second year. Tracy McGrady developed under Doc. Doc never had a young player that ever turned into something big somewhere else. Ever.

His record for developing youth and knowing who is good enough to deserve playing time and who isn't is exceptional after 10 years as a coach. Yet people still want him to prove to them that his decision to not play Walker or Giddens or Telfair or Green is the correct one by playing them more when the don't deserve to be playing.

Your problem with Doc playing Pierce and Ray into the ground is not with Doc for not playing a player that isn't good enough to play. It is with Danny Ainge for giving Doc the options of Giddens, Walker and Tony Allen as the only options for Doc to use as a backup wing. All three aren't good enough to use.

[BudweiserCeltic]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not.

This is simply false.

[nickagneta]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not.

This is simply false.

We'll agree to completely disagree with this.

[bobdelt]

"But if these players aren't doing the correct things after thousands of hours in practice and have shown they aren't getting it, wy do you feel they will suddenly get it in games? "

I didn't know that. I guess I should go to more practices.

How do you know this?

Because the coach isn't playing them.

You don't know that. That's simply your assumption, that you think is a fact, but unless you're Doc Rivers, you don't know if that's true. This isn't high school basketball - you don't get benched for screwing up a play in practice.

While I agree with you the talent has to be there to play, I disagree that experience in games isn't relevant. Or that letting younger guys play (so our older guys get rest too) and maybe lose a game or two isn't beneficial in the long run.

What if we did lose 8 more games and lost home court? But the big 3 had more rest. I'd rather have us on the road than dead tired at home.


Look at how Phil Jackson coaches. His entire philosophy is letting the players do it themselves, giving them a chance to screw up and learn from their mistakes. There is some credit to that. For you to say that practice counts are real experience is ridiculous.

[BudweiserCeltic]

You guys just don't get it. Playing time isn't going to make these guys better. They are either good enough to play or not.

This is simply false.

We'll agree to completely disagree with this.

I guess we'll have to, but it's completely illogical to believe that the experience gained from actual playing time, in real competition doesn't help you improve your game. Sorry, but you're never going to convince me otherwise. Wether Walker improves or not is up to him, but playing time is a huge tool for him to learn from.