Phil Jackson isn't even in the same class as Red

[Eja117]

There's more to evaluating a team/player/coach than the situation they're in.  My point is that if you want to evaluate something from all angles (which does include situation, as you mentioned), which I think you should, be consistent.

When I say teams I mean franchises. And actually they have been known to move.

If we want consistency then we can maybe say Red is the best coach who stayed with one team his whole career and Phil is the best that followed the best players.

[guava_wrench]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

Jackson would have never come back if Rudy T didn't get diagnosed with cancer (or whatever it was).  Phil bailed the Lakers out when they were left without a coach.  I don't think he would be coaching today if Rudy T didn't have to leave.

Well, if we want to get specific about who bailed out who, then I saw Memphis GM Wallace bailed out the LA Lakers with the stupid Pau Gasol trade.  It was Pau, IMO, which makes the Lakers the championship team they are.

you mean the trade in which Memphis picked up their starting center, a young PG they like, and 2 other first round picks

You mean the young PG they like that now plays for Washington?

That trade was  pure money dump, the Lakers offered Memphis the biggest savings so they pulled the trigger. Marc Gasol turned out okay, that doesn't mean it wasn't 25 cents on the dollar for Gasol.

Just like what teams did for Red. The Celtics historically benefited from money dumps probably more than any other team in the league. Does that make our championships illegitimate?

[Fafnir]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

Jackson would have never come back if Rudy T didn't get diagnosed with cancer (or whatever it was).  Phil bailed the Lakers out when they were left without a coach.  I don't think he would be coaching today if Rudy T didn't have to leave.

Well, if we want to get specific about who bailed out who, then I saw Memphis GM Wallace bailed out the LA Lakers with the stupid Pau Gasol trade.  It was Pau, IMO, which makes the Lakers the championship team they are.

you mean the trade in which Memphis picked up their starting center, a young PG they like, and 2 other first round picks

You mean the young PG they like that now plays for Washington?

That trade was  pure money dump, the Lakers offered Memphis the biggest savings so they pulled the trigger. Marc Gasol turned out okay, that doesn't mean it wasn't 25 cents on the dollar for Gasol.

Just like what teams did for Red. The Celtics historically benefited from money dumps probably more than any other team in the league. Does that make our championships illegitimate?

What money dumps did the Celtics get?

Also where did I say any Laker's titles were illegitimate?

[Manzana]

One of the recurring arguements I keep hearing from the media is that today's players are much more complicated and need to be focused more so PJ is a superior coach blah blah blah.. I think we forget that Phil and organizations have people that do everything.. hell Phil's assistant coaches are the ones who put the defense and triangle offenses together (Tex winter?) So all he does is stroke egos all season. Please, Red had to deal with the racial problems of the times. You can't tell me that it was an easy thing for him to keep Russell focused or even in Boston after all the crap that Russell went through here.

It blows my mind that people haven't considered all the things Red had to overcome and how dominate a figurehead and coach he really was. I suppose it is just one of those things that gets lost in time. It's hard to compare folks from different eras, but to me Phil is like one of those rich kids that goes to college, just barely passes, then gets a job at the company that daddy owns and skates the rest of his life by just being a name. Phil does one thing well and that is talk to his players and assign them books to read, he is a glorified basketball guidance counselor.

[Eja117]

I find this to be a sorta funny quote from Phil

"I come from a generation that believed in karma," Jackson said last season when asked about Sterling."I do think there is karma in effect ultimately. ... If you do a good mitzvah [a Jewish term for an act of kindness], maybe you can eliminate some of those things. You don't think Sterling's done enough mitzvahs to eliminate some of those?"

Wasn't he just saying the league needs to recognize Christian religious holidays by not playing on those days?

This guy goes through religions like Charlie Sheen goes through scotch, only less well

[Bingbangbarros]

In my opinion, you really can't compare coaches from that era to coaches today. The game has changed so much. I read somewhere that Red had Cousy in the pivot until Russel said something about it. It was so different back then, much more advanced nowadays. Also I'm pretty sure he didn't create the fast break as someone said.

[Reyquila]

Which is the NBA coach that has won the most titles? Whom do the record books show? Is there an asterisk next to the name explaining that why he won the most titles?
When Chamberlain scored 100 points in 1 game and had a 50pt/game average during a while season, is there an asterisk explaining that he only did it casue he was the strongest player in the NBA that season. And will the records show that Allen has the 3 pt. record with an asterisk that explains that opossing teams guarded Miller a lot closer than they guarded Allen? Is that how it goes? Give Ceasar what is Ceasar's; Give Kobe what is Kobe's and give Allen what is Allen's. They all earned it. Give Phil what is Phil's Period.  

[Prof. Clutch]

Wow Eja, way to break out an antique, I remember this thread.  It's almost two years old...seriously Brickowski has a post on the second page and I haven't seen his Grand mama avatar in over a year.

That told me instantly how old this was.

[xmuscularghandix]

Red was such a good coach that all the players he coached ended up being championship coaches.

[PaulPierce34G]

At the end  of the day, Phil Jackson knows how to win & that's all that matters.

Whether he is in the same class as Red in regards to other attributes/personal characteristics is a totally different story.

Sometimes I see Phil on TV and some of the comments he makes, it makes me just want to punch his teeth out.   Other times, you find yourself agreeing with some of his comments. 

However, in regards to building teams and being handed the keys, it doesn't matter which route you go, if you don't know how to handle/coach the talent you've built or that you've been handed the keys to, you won't win.

I think Red had a more difficult time during his era, the NBA was in it's early years, racial tensions, etc, but you can't take away what Phil has done if you are strictly comparing Wins/Losses/Championships.  In that regard, these 2 are on the same playing field.

[Lakers are the Best]

Phil Jackson's teams have won more titles than any other team. He has done it in an expanded NBA, where you currently have to beat out 29 other teams. Red only had to beat out 7 other teams. Granted, Red did everything, from making hotel reservations to coaching the team. He was a classic, but one can't dismiss 11-9.

[Prof. Clutch]

Phil Jackson's teams have won more titles than any other team. He has done it in an expanded NBA, where you currently have to beat out 29 other teams. Red only had to beat out 7 other teams. Granted, Red did everything, from making hotel reservations to coaching the team. He was a classic, but one can't dismiss 11-9.

This works both ways though...30 teams could also signify an easier road to a championship since it waters down the competition in the league.

More to the point of this thread though, everyone will consider Phil to be one of the greats by his careers end, but Red will always be the best. 

[Moranis]

Phil Jackson's teams have won more titles than any other team. He has done it in an expanded NBA, where you currently have to beat out 29 other teams. Red only had to beat out 7 other teams. Granted, Red did everything, from making hotel reservations to coaching the team. He was a classic, but one can't dismiss 11-9.

This works both ways though...30 teams could also signify an easier road to a championship since it waters down the competition in the league.

More to the point of this thread though, everyone will consider Phil to be one of the greats by his careers end, but Red will always be the best. 

2 playoff series is a lot easier then 4. 

Thread still cracks me up.  Red is the best coach because he was the best GM.  That logic still strikes me as odd.

[nba is the worst]

Phil Jackson's teams have won more titles than any other team. He has done it in an expanded NBA, where you currently have to beat out 29 other teams. Red only had to beat out 7 other teams. Granted, Red did everything, from making hotel reservations to coaching the team. He was a classic, but one can't dismiss 11-9.

This works both ways though...30 teams could also signify an easier road to a championship since it waters down the competition in the league.

More to the point of this thread though, everyone will consider Phil to be one of the greats by his careers end, but Red will always be the best. 

2 playoff series is a lot easier then 4. 

Thread still cracks me up.  Red is the best coach because he was the best GM.  That logic still strikes me as odd.

This is really true - lots of people forget that 2 of Red's titles were against teams with LOSING RECORDS in the regular season.

That said, Red also had a couple of huge advantages, one he was responsible for and one he wasn't:

Red was the first coach to recruit and develop black players as more than a token presence, and the first with an all-black starting five. Smart, and ahead of his time.

With the reserve clause/no free agency, he was able to stockpile HOF talent, because no player could afford to sit out a year to change teams...

Both guys succeeded in their eras.

Silly IMO is the want/need for people to proclaim that Red or Phil is "the best ever".

[celtics2]

I'm going with the Triangle dude. As far as class if Red lit one up in the Gaaadin nowadays he's be evicted.