Phil Jackson isn't even in the same class as Red

[Manzana]

Now, I know I am a homer and that the title implies that implicitly. But I am having a hard time stomaching all the Phil Jackson ball-washing going on about how he has more championships etc. Now before I just end this note and it becomes a waste of database bytes.. let me give a few reasons why I think Red is by far still the greatest coach in NBA history and why Phil can't even compare.

Red BUILT his teams. That's right folks, I know that the Celtics educated folks on this board know this, but has anyone in the modern media forgot about this small fact? Red built drafted, traded and constructed the Celtics Championship from the ground up as a coach and led them as a coach to dominate throughout the late 50s and 60s. I don't know the numbers as well as I am sure some do, and I am too lazy to research it, but didn't Red win his nine championships in a row?

Phil Jackson was handed the keys to the Chicago Bulls job with Michael Jordan already in the fold. He has never drafted or made trades, there has always been a Jerry Krause, Jerry West, Mitch Kupchak there to pick the players. Now I am not saying he didn't have any say in those selections, but he never had the responsibility that Red had.

Now I won't argue that Phil Jackson isn't a good coach, you have to be to be able to motivate some of the greatest players every to play and get them to work together, hell it took him seven seasons to teach Kobe to trust in his teammates in order for them to win. I won't take that away from him, I can't imagine trying to cope with Kobe and his bigger than life ego as well as Michael's. But I just can't stand the members of the media coming out and saying that Phil is the greatest Coach of all time. Even if we take out the whole arguement about Red building his teams. Red still won his nine championships in a much shorter time span, he was able to maintain that excellence over a shorter period of time. His teams DOMINATED winning over his years as coach of the Celtics.

I don't know, I guess I am a pretty biased when it comes to this as I am sure many of you are, but seeing people saying Phil Jackson is the greatest coach of all time, make me sick and I should know better that it could very well unbiased reporting on their part, which leaves their arguments no better than the ones I just outlined here. Chime in.. what do you think? Give good valid reasons For you stat heads, maybe someone will list playoff winning percentages, winning percentage as Coach, etc.

[PosImpos]

It's always easier to be impressed by the guy with more wins.  It's simpler that way.  Not to mention that hyperbole like "best ever" sounds better when it's about somebody who is still around now as opposed to somebody way back when.

[Cman]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

[RAcker]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

TP.

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

Manzana,

As somebody who hates the "best ever" discussions, the only thing i'll do is give the raw facts.

Firstly, Red didn't win 9 titles in a row. He won 8 in a row from the 58-59 season through the 65-66 season and had one before the 8-0 championship run in 56-57.

Secondly, as a head coach in the NBA Red had a career playoff winning % of .603 (Phil Jackson's is .697).

Both Red and Phil have received the Coach of the Year Award as well as the Ten Greatest Coaches Award/Designation.

[GroverTheClover]

I think you have to also take into consideration the number of championships in the amount of time each person coached. I think it's too convenient for the media to disregard the fact that Red won 9 titles in 11 yeards and fixate on Phil's 10 titles in 18 years. I'll take .818 over .555 anyday.

[paintitgreen]

Yeah, Red won 9 in 10 years but he also won 9 in 20 years. Phil won 10 in 18 and I think 9 in his first 12 seasons of coaching.

The comparison between the two isn't really possible in my mind because you're talking about different eras. Phil is an amazing coach. He works perfectly in the modern era, which requires motivation and gaining the trust of your players from superstar to 15th man. Phil does that. Could he have handled every nuance of running a basketball team from all of the work we consider coaching now to scouting to negotiating contracts to swinging trades to coming up with attendance promotions? Absolutely not. He's too laid back for it.

Conversely, could Red have singlehandedly handled every aspect of an organization in a multibillion dollar, 30-team, 450-player league? No, of course not. But could Red handle just being a coach and letting other people handle all of his scouting, trading, and player acquisitions? No, he was too much of a control freak. He'd have to be running the whole show. Given the choice, I think he would've been a GM and picked somebody he trusted to run his systems and styles to be the coach.

Phil is the best coach of his era, Red was the best coach of his era. But the word "coach" required two totally different jobs in those two eras. So you can't compare them on the level of "Who's the best coach?" You can only respect the greatness of each of them and recognize that they were great at what they did.

But I also think it's ridiculous to say Phil "isn't even in the same class." That implies, to me, different levels of the same basic job, with Red being far superior. The truth is we'll never know, because it's not the same job. Even then, it's one thing to say Red is better but not in the same class? Please. They're clearly the cream of the crop of the overall concept of NBA coach - you just can't say which one comes higher given the vastly different job functions.

[JBcat]

Yeah, Red won 9 in 10 years but he also won 9 in 20 years. Phil won 10 in 18 and I think 9 in his first 12 seasons of coaching.

The comparison between the two isn't really possible in my mind because you're talking about different eras. Phil is an amazing coach. He works perfectly in the modern era, which requires motivation and gaining the trust of your players from superstar to 15th man. Phil does that. Could he have handled every nuance of running a basketball team from all of the work we consider coaching now to scouting to negotiating contracts to swinging trades to coming up with attendance promotions? Absolutely not. He's too laid back for it.

Conversely, could Red have singlehandedly handled every aspect of an organization in a multibillion dollar, 30-team, 450-player league? No, of course not. But could Red handle just being a coach and letting other people handle all of his scouting, trading, and player acquisitions? No, he was too much of a control freak. He'd have to be running the whole show. Given the choice, I think he would've been a GM and picked somebody he trusted to run his systems and styles to be the coach.

Phil is the best coach of his era, Red was the best coach of his era. But the word "coach" required two totally different jobs in those two eras. So you can't compare them on the level of "Who's the best coach?" You can only respect the greatness of each of them and recognize that they were great at what they did.

But I also think it's ridiculous to say Phil "isn't even in the same class." That implies, to me, different levels of the same basic job, with Red being far superior. The truth is we'll never know, because it's not the same job. Even then, it's one thing to say Red is better but not in the same class? Please. They're clearly the cream of the crop of the overall concept of NBA coach - you just can't say which one comes higher given the vastly different job functions.

Very good points.  In short it's very hard to compare coaches from different eras.  Red never had any assistants and Phil has 6 of them so it's much easier for Phil to hand out responsibilities.  ARed had in his favor much fewer teams to compete with.  It's just not easy to compare. 

[Roy Hobbs]

"He's never tried building a team and teaching the fundamentals. When he's gone in there, they've been ready-made for him. It's just a matter of putting his system in there.

"They don't worry about developing players if they're not good enough. They just go get someone else."

[Moranis]

I think you have to also take into consideration the number of championships in the amount of time each person coached. I think it's too convenient for the media to disregard the fact that Red won 9 titles in 11 yeards and fixate on Phil's 10 titles in 18 years. I'll take .818 over .555 anyday.

don't you mean 9 in 20 for Red.  celtic fans always forget the 9 years that Red coached in the league before winning his first championship as a coach.

And for the record Phil Jackson has a title as a player on a team he was a key contributor for (essentially the 6th man) and won a CBA title as a coach before landing the Bulls job.

[Moranis]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

Jackson would have never come back if Rudy T didn't get diagnosed with cancer (or whatever it was).  Phil bailed the Lakers out when they were left without a coach.  I don't think he would be coaching today if Rudy T didn't have to leave.

[Donoghus]

Sure would've been nice to still have Red around to see his reaction to this. 

[Cman]

Agreed and agreed.

Also, did Red ever quit the Celtics for a year to write a memoir about "the last season" before returning to coach a few more seasons?

Jackson would have never come back if Rudy T didn't get diagnosed with cancer (or whatever it was).  Phil bailed the Lakers out when they were left without a coach.  I don't think he would be coaching today if Rudy T didn't have to leave.

Well, if we want to get specific about who bailed out who, then I saw Memphis GM Wallace bailed out the LA Lakers with the stupid Pau Gasol trade.  It was Pau, IMO, which makes the Lakers the championship team they are.

[Kwhit10]

Doesn't Red technically have 16 rings from being associated with the team in one form or another.

[Mr October]

I can't stand Phil Jackson.... and Kobe.... and the Lakers....

But, Phil is a great coach, and is in the same class as a coach.