Author Topic: Boston - Toronto trade idea  (Read 13819 times)

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Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2009, 04:34:16 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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I wouldn't trade Perk straight up for Bosh . . .

That seems to be the consensus, and all I can say is, a lot of people are missing the boat on how good Bosh is.

Roy,

You don't need to tell me how good Bosh is as I'm a Raptors season ticket holder (I live in Toronto).

I'm telling you Bosh is soft like frozen yogurt. Yes he can score, but the way he scores kills me as he's transformed into a jump-shooter. Don't get me wrong, his stroke is smooth, but without a legit big man 5 his team never secures a rebound. As the Magic are proving, jump shooting can only take you so far.

He's a TERRIBLE defender. Just terrible.

He's also a relatively terrible passer, especially out of the double-team.

His best quality could be his FT%.
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Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2009, 04:34:33 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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I wouldn't trade Perk straight up for Bosh . . .

That seems to be the consensus, and all I can say is, a lot of people are missing the boat on how good Bosh is.

Bosh KG and Pierce are the best front court in the league. Maybe a top ten front court ever. However, you just don't trade Rajon at this point. Within two years he could be the best player on our team, you don't want to watch him do it for another team.
Perk and Ray for Bosh is ok with me.
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Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2009, 04:37:25 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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OK, anyone who's including Perkins in a trade is actually insane.

His contract for the next two years is AMAZING.

He can make Dwight Howard DISSAPEAR.
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2009, 04:40:13 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I wouldn't trade Perk straight up for Bosh . . .

That seems to be the consensus, and all I can say is, a lot of people are missing the boat on how good Bosh is.

I don't think it's overvaluing Perk to say this. There's a lot at play. Perk's extremely reasonable contract, his ability to defend anyone in the low post. On the other hand, you have Bosh, who will be paid a lot of money with an offensive skill set that already exists in KG and a defensive skill set that is not up to the level required of this team.

I don't think anyone is saying Perk is a better player than Bosh, I just don't think Bosh is as good a fit for this team.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I don't like this trade.

I don't think I'm overvaluing Perkins here at all.  I'm looking at this trade from a need/fit sense for the Celtics.  We already have a PF with a somewhat similar skill set and I don't like the idea of Bosh at Center.

Now if its getting rid of KG instead of Perkins and having a Bosh/Perk frontcourt, I'd be more open to it.  I just don't like the idea of Bosh at the 5. 


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Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2009, 04:41:17 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Of course this is a good deal for the Celtics. Bosh is pretty much a superstar- guess, it's the same reasoning as the Amare deal.

There are all of these proposed deals for some of the best players in the NBA. In these trades, we still keep our two best players (KG and PP). I understand how good Rondo and Ray are, but Calderon isn't that much of a downgrade from Rondo (if at all) and Bosh is soooooo much of a better prospect now and down the road than Ray.

I won't be unhappy if we keep our core and build around it, but if somehow we acquire a young, superstar big man, I will be very excited [as well].

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2009, 04:46:40 PM »

Offline jambr380

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geez, I do hate to lose Perk, though- anyway we can keep Perk and they can keep Graham??

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2009, 04:48:18 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Just thought I'd raise this point because I do think its a serious factor to consider and watching Perk battle Howard in the playoffs illustrates that.

Perkins- 271 lbs.

Bosh- 230 lbs.


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Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2009, 04:51:08 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I'm not a fan of Bosh or Calderon. I wouldn't like the Bosh/Garnett pair upfront also. Maybe if Bosh was extended at an extremely friendly price I'd consider doing this, but then I'd try to trade him (most probable) or Garnett/Pierce.

Roy, if you like guys like Bosh or Stoudemire, what would you be willing to pay for Charlie Villanueva in the free-agency market?

Chris Bosh - 21.5 points per 36, .569 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Charlie Villanueva - 21.7 points per 36, .529 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Amare Stoudemire - 21 points per 36, .617 TS%, 12.9 TRB%

Sure Villanueva is still a few steps bellow and hasn't been able to score so efficiently so far, but he's at their level in every other aspect of the game, may actually be the best rebounder and he's still growing and developing (still 24 years old, also).


Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2009, 04:51:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  The most overrated player in the deal isn't Rondo or Perk, it's Calderon.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2009, 04:54:28 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'm not a fan of Bosh or Calderon. I wouldn't like the Bosh/Garnett pair upfront also. Maybe if Bosh was extended at an extremely friendly price I'd consider doing this, but then I'd try to trade him (most probable) or Garnett/Pierce.

Roy, if you like guys like Bosh or Stoudemire, what would you be willing to pay for Charlie Villanueva in the free-agency market?

Chris Bosh - 21.5 points per 36, .569 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Charlie Villanueva - 21.7 points per 36, .529 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Amare Stoudemire - 21 points per 36, .617 TS%, 12.9 TRB%

Sure Villanueva is still a few steps bellow and hasn't been able to score so efficiently so far, but he's at their level in every other aspect of the game, may actually be the best rebounder and he's still growing and developing (still 24 years old, also).



  I've always been under the impression that CV was either low BBIQ or a head case. He doesn't seem to be overly sought-after for someone with his stats.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I'm not a fan of Bosh or Calderon. I wouldn't like the Bosh/Garnett pair upfront also. Maybe if Bosh was extended at an extremely friendly price I'd consider doing this, but then I'd try to trade him (most probable) or Garnett/Pierce.

Roy, if you like guys like Bosh or Stoudemire, what would you be willing to pay for Charlie Villanueva in the free-agency market?

Chris Bosh - 21.5 points per 36, .569 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Charlie Villanueva - 21.7 points per 36, .529 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Amare Stoudemire - 21 points per 36, .617 TS%, 12.9 TRB%

Sure Villanueva is still a few steps bellow and hasn't been able to score so efficiently so far, but he's at their level in every other aspect of the game, may actually be the best rebounder and he's still growing and developing (still 24 years old, also).



  I've always been under the impression that CV was either low BBIQ or a head case. He doesn't seem to be overly sought-after for someone with his stats.

Headcase? I don't think so. I think he's a good, hard-working kid (and surely an excellent citizen), just inconsistent (but so is Bosh and to some extent Stoudemire) and a bad defender (just like Stoudemire and to some extent Bosh).

edit: Personally, I'm not a fan of any of the 3.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2009, 05:15:01 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I'd really like this deal if Toronto had someone better to offer in the 2 spot than Joey Graham. Some might say try to get Kapono, but Kapono and Calderon as a defensive back court would overshadow any advances you may have made in the front court. I just can't see a back court of Kapono-Calderon or Graham Calderon being a world championship back court, no matter how good the front court is.

Now a Perk and Ray for Bosh and Kapono works great for me.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2009, 05:18:20 PM »

Offline rickyfan3.0...

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Take out Rondo and I would do that.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2009, 05:18:58 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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[dang it], I wrote most of this post once and somehow lost it.

Anyway, I agree with almost everything Roy said, except about Bosh playing some good minutes at center. He can't start at center. However, maybe it's time the 7 foot Garnett, whose mobility will quite possibly no longer be what it once was, made the move to starting center. Despite that one issue, I'd do this trade in a heartbeat. There are some things I'd rather switch out - different pieces instead of Perk, something other than Graham - but I'm just shocked nobody's mentioned there's no way Toronto does this trade.

First, I don't think we lose anything at the point. In fact, I think Calderon might be better than Rondo now and for the future. Calderon is a pure point with great distribution, a ridiculous A/TO ratio and a great shot from all parts of the court. His defense is not good. However, and maybe I'm wrong here but I feel that good players have a much stronger tendency to develop defensive skills (which can be improved through increased effort, conditioning and understanding of team philosophies) than to develop an outside shot (an individual skill based on mechanics).

Look at how Ray Allen and Paul Pierce improved their defense markedly over the past two season. Christ, look at how JJ Redick pestered Ray Allen throughout that Orlando series. I think a big defensive improvement is particularly possible with Calderon who already has excellent height (6'3"), length and quickness for his position. He needs to improve bulk, but he has a lot of room for improvement.

Offensively, as much as I enjoy Rondo's game, Calderon's shot just makes such a huge difference that I'd strongly prefer Calderon on that end. He could be more aggressive, but that's mentality, not a lack of an actual skill. He's already ahead of Rondo on that end, and could get better. I think Calderon was affected quite a bit by having played for the Spanish national team last summer and I'm not overly concerned with his health.

What's more, Calderon already is locked up on a reasonable contract (4 more years, $37.5 million). While a similar contract for Rondo might give me more pause, I think Rondo is gonna be looking for something more like 5 years, $50-55 million minimum. Either way, neither Rondo nor Calderon is going to be a top 2 guard ever (neither will catch Paul or Williams) and are both probably gonna remain in the second tier. Without much difference, especially since Rondo may have a fundamental flaw, why not take the guy who's locked up reasonably instead of the guy who may be trying next year to cash in on having been the point guard on a championship team (or hopefully two)?

With Ray going, we lose a lot. And I just don't like Joey Graham in any way, shape or form. The trade works salarywise without Graham, so I'd just as soon not include him in the deal. It's not like it saves Toronto any money (they can just let him walk) and he just wouldn't help us. If it was a one year deal at the QO level or lower, I'd be fine with it, as his expiring contract could be used around the trade deadline to add somebody of substance. We'd clearly have to find somebody to start at the 2, but the acquisition of Calderon's shot makes the loss of Ray's shot less of a problem and allows us to target a guy who's got a decent shot but can give us better defense.

Finally, the big men. I love Perk and overrate him. And having a true center can't be undervalued, particularly with Howard just coming into his own in our Conference and the potential to see Bynum frequently down the road. However, Bosh over Perk is a bigger upgrade than Allen to Graham/TA(who I hate)/House/Giddens is a downgrade. No doubt. It would make finding a center imperative, that's true. But it's worth it.

The fact is, Bosh is a 25 year old perennial All Star power forward. I think Bosh is a bit overrated, mostly because I think the fact that he gets lumped in with Lebron, Wade and Carmelo (simply because he was from the same draft class) is a huge exaggeration of his talent. However, he has a very good offensive game - solid finisher around the rim, gets to the line a lot and hits free throws, knocks down long jumpers with some measure of consistency, rebounds adequately (not great in that department, but good), a little weak with post defense (which is why I think Roy is wrong on the center argument) but very capable of defending perimeter-oriented bigs due to his quickness and athleticism.

Losing Perk would be a blow because he's ideal next to both Garnett and Bosh, as he can take the physical pounding those other two can't. But like I said, the upgrade to Bosh is so big, I couldn't turn this deal down.

I would strongly prefer if we could make this a sign and trade involving Davis or Powe (though I'm not sure Toronto would want either rather than Perk). For that, I would throw in Giddens, Walker, basically any young player or draft pick Toronto wanted and would even take on, say, Marcus Banks' or Jason Kapono's two remaining years. A frontcourt of Pierce, Bosh and Garnett with Perk coming off the bench would be phenomenal (arguably, you could start all 4, putting Bosh at the 3 more easily than you could put, say, Amare there but it's more likely Garnett would start at center and Perk would come off the bench, with Perk starting against Orlando). That would be a real New Big Three (which to me requires it be the two forwards and center, my biggest problem with KG, Pierce and Ray having that nickname).

Keep in mind, the preceding has really been focused only on the present. For the future, the improvement is incredible. Anybody who would rather build for the future around Perk and Rondo (as much as I love those guys) than Bosh and Calderon is just plain nuts. Bosh is your heir to Garnett. Not as good as KG obviously, but you keep an All Star big man to build around, with a legitimate third option point guard, and they're both in their 20s. They'll need a number 1 or 1a option at the wing (an heir to Pierce) to be perennial title contenders, but Perk and Rondo would need a Lebron type to be perennial title contenders. This would be a good foundation without costing anything substantial in the present.

Like I said, a good 2 guard who can defend and shoot is necessary, and we'd still have our need for a 3/4 backup, but this trade would improve our team radically.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 05:26:04 PM by paintitgreen »
Go Celtics.

Re: Boston - Toronto trade idea
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2009, 06:09:22 PM »

Offline arctic 3.0

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I'm not a fan of Bosh or Calderon. I wouldn't like the Bosh/Garnett pair upfront also. Maybe if Bosh was extended at an extremely friendly price I'd consider doing this, but then I'd try to trade him (most probable) or Garnett/Pierce.

Roy, if you like guys like Bosh or Stoudemire, what would you be willing to pay for Charlie Villanueva in the free-agency market?

Chris Bosh - 21.5 points per 36, .569 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Charlie Villanueva - 21.7 points per 36, .529 TS%, 14.7 TRB%

Amare Stoudemire - 21 points per 36, .617 TS%, 12.9 TRB%

Sure Villanueva is still a few steps bellow and hasn't been able to score so efficiently so far, but he's at their level in every other aspect of the game, may actually be the best rebounder and he's still growing and developing (still 24 years old, also).


I'm with you. while I don't think villanoeva is as good as bosh or stoudemire i think that his addition with out subtracting perk and or ray and or rondo would do more for the club than trading 2 of te three for  bosh or stoudemire.
charlie poseses a good all around game, can bang down low and is quick enough to guard the perimeter. imo would thrive as the first big off the bench for the c's.

however I doubt we can afford him and I don't think a sign and trade is feasible so ...