Cavs future?

[winsomme]

Unless they give AV a big raise, AND sign someone for the MLE for a multi-year deal they will be able to sign LBJ and another max free agent.

I doubt they'll do anything to screw that up unless its to get someone as good as Bosh/Wade/Amare/etc...

well, what's a big raise?

he made 6 mil last season. Even if they re-signed him for that for two seasons + , that puts CLE in the 42 mil-range. Any raise over 6 puts them even higher than 42 million.

If Moranis is right about the cap hold, them i don't see how they can offer a max deal....

They will have cap room. I just looked at their hoopshype salary page here.

They are at 18 million without LBJ, that includes Delonte's full 4 million. Because his contract is only partially guarenteed that gives them the wiggle room.

LBJ's cap hold will be 130% of his previous year's salary.

How much are they paying Varejao?

[Fafnir]

Unless they give AV a big raise, AND sign someone for the MLE for a multi-year deal they will be able to sign LBJ and another max free agent.

I doubt they'll do anything to screw that up unless its to get someone as good as Bosh/Wade/Amare/etc...

well, what's a big raise?

he made 6 mil last season. Even if they re-signed him for that for two seasons + , that puts CLE in the 42 mil-range. Any raise over 6 puts them even higher than 42 million.

If Moranis is right about the cap hold, them i don't see how they can offer a max deal....

They will have cap room. I just looked at their hoopshype salary page here.

They are at 18 million without LBJ, that includes Delonte's full 4 million. Because his contract is only partially guarenteed that gives them the wiggle room.

LBJ's cap hold will be 130% of his previous year's salary.

How much are they paying Varejao?

They can pay him roughly 7.5 assuming they let Delonte go and still have room to get a max free agent and LeBron.

That should be enough to bring him back. Now if they pay him and use the MLE they might have to be more creative.

[cordobes]

Since I'm confident that Danny Ferry doesn't read this message board, here's what I do if I'm Cleveland.

Trade Ben Wallace for Vince Carter.

Cleveland gets a real sidekick to Lebron and NJ gets under the cap and away from that awful contract.  When Vince brings it, there aren't that many better than him.  With Lebron being the "leader," Vince can really prosper.

Cle starting lineup

Mo Williams
VC
Lebron
Andy
Big Z

Bench
West
Boobi
Hickson
Other SF to replace Wally

Dangerous team, talent wise

Won't happen.  Trading for Vince takes the Cavs out of the Bosh running.  They won't do that.  The Cavs will make as big of an offer as possible for Bosh this year, and if they can't get him through trade they will offer him a max deal after next year.  The Cavs know that they need a second star to go with Lebron.  Bosh and Lebron are close and Lebron wants him on the Cavs 

I haven't read this whole thread so maybe this has already been answered, but how can CLE realistically make a max deal offer to Bosh.

If they add any decent contracts beyond next year, they are out of the running for Bosh, no?

they're are something like 36 mil going into 2010/11 now right? With the cap looming in the low to mid 50's mil, doesn't that mean no Z, no Varejao and now MLE signings in this off season?

is CLE really going to go into next season with a weaker team than the one that just lost to ORL?

That seems so risky to me given that they would have no assurance of Bosh coming here after  next season.

am i right about the money on this? can someone else break it down how CLE can actually not go into the season next year with a weaker team and still have the money to go after Bosh?

As long as they don't add contracts for more than one year (except Varejão) they'll have plenty of room to offer a FA a max contract, unless the salary cap drops drastically (and in that case, they're in great shape in the trade market, with so many expiring contracts). What's the problem with Z? He'll pick up his option but his contract ends next season.

They'll probably use the MLE and sign someone for a season, plus use their LLE to sign another player in a multiple year deal.

but that's my point, how do you sign Varejao? They're at 36 mil without him.

plus, the high quality FAs are going to want more the a one year deal. So how do you replace Varejao with one year MLE deals?

Hum? They sign Varejão with the Bird exception, they don't need to replace him. 

Look, they only have about $18 millions in guaranteed contracts, all the rest they can dump if they want too. They'll probably keep Hickson and Jackson, so it  jumps to $20 millions. Add Varejão and you have, say, $27 millions. How much for the cap holds? $3 millions? It puts them at $30 millions. That should be enough money left to split between LeBron and Bosh or whoever they're going after. Worst case scenario, they dump Gibson's contract (it should be easy) and they can enter 2010 with Mo Williams and some rookie contracts in the books.

I don't see how can they screw this unless they intentionally want to do it (and I think they'll try to get that player via trade).

[winsomme]

Since I'm confident that Danny Ferry doesn't read this message board, here's what I do if I'm Cleveland.

Trade Ben Wallace for Vince Carter.

Cleveland gets a real sidekick to Lebron and NJ gets under the cap and away from that awful contract.  When Vince brings it, there aren't that many better than him.  With Lebron being the "leader," Vince can really prosper.

Cle starting lineup

Mo Williams
VC
Lebron
Andy
Big Z

Bench
West
Boobi
Hickson
Other SF to replace Wally

Dangerous team, talent wise

Won't happen.  Trading for Vince takes the Cavs out of the Bosh running.  They won't do that.  The Cavs will make as big of an offer as possible for Bosh this year, and if they can't get him through trade they will offer him a max deal after next year.  The Cavs know that they need a second star to go with Lebron.  Bosh and Lebron are close and Lebron wants him on the Cavs 

I haven't read this whole thread so maybe this has already been answered, but how can CLE realistically make a max deal offer to Bosh.

If they add any decent contracts beyond next year, they are out of the running for Bosh, no?

they're are something like 36 mil going into 2010/11 now right? With the cap looming in the low to mid 50's mil, doesn't that mean no Z, no Varejao and now MLE signings in this off season?

is CLE really going to go into next season with a weaker team than the one that just lost to ORL?

That seems so risky to me given that they would have no assurance of Bosh coming here after  next season.

am i right about the money on this? can someone else break it down how CLE can actually not go into the season next year with a weaker team and still have the money to go after Bosh?

As long as they don't add contracts for more than one year (except Varejão) they'll have plenty of room to offer a FA a max contract, unless the salary cap drops drastically (and in that case, they're in great shape in the trade market, with so many expiring contracts). What's the problem with Z? He'll pick up his option but his contract ends next season.

They'll probably use the MLE and sign someone for a season, plus use their LLE to sign another player in a multiple year deal.

but that's my point, how do you sign Varejao? They're at 36 mil without him.

plus, the high quality FAs are going to want more the a one year deal. So how do you replace Varejao with one year MLE deals?

Hum? They sign Varejão with the Bird exception, they don't need to replace him. 

Look, they only have about $18 millions in guaranteed contracts, all the rest they can dump if they want too. They'll probably keep Hickson and Jackson, so it  jumps to $20 millions. Add Varejão and you have, say, $27 millions. How much for the cap holds? $3 millions? It puts them at $30 millions. That should be enough money left to split between LeBron and Bosh or whoever they're going after. Worst case scenario, they dump Gibson's contract (it should be easy) and they can enter 2010 with Mo Williams and some rookie contracts in the books.

I don't see how can they screw this unless they intentionally want to do it (and I think they'll try to get that player via trade).

what about the cap hold for LeBron?

and even if your numbers are right, 30 million for two max deals?

[cordobes]

what about the cap hold for LeBron?

I don't understand your question. If they're going to re-sign LeBron why does it matter his cap-hold?

and even if your numbers are right, 30 million for two max deals?

Well, 25% of the projected BRI shouldn't be much more. But if it's not enough:
- pair Gibson with a 1st rounder for an expiring contract.
- draft a combo guard with a jump-shot with the remaining draft pick.

Voilá: Mo Williams, Varejão and a few rookies under contract. If this doesn't create enough room to sign LeBron and another max Free Agent, then nobody will be able to do that anyway and LeBron as no incentive to leave.

[winsomme]

what about the cap hold for LeBron?

I don't understand your question. If they're going to re-sign LeBron why does it matter his cap-hold?

If LeBron opts out, then in order to keep Bron's Bird Rights, I believe they have to keep a cap hold.

I'm not sure how the cap hold is figured out but I believe it is more than the previous year's salary which for Bron is 15.8 million and probably more than he was going to make had he not opted out which is over 17 million.

so in order to know how much cap room they have left, you have to add that figure to existing salaries which puts you on the north side of 36 million before you sign Varejao.

If this doesn't create enough room to sign LeBron and another max Free Agent, then nobody will be able to do that anyway and LeBron as no incentive to leave.

how bout the Knicks? That's the team everyone is talking about, anyway.

[cordobes]

what about the cap hold for LeBron?

I don't understand your question. If they're going to re-sign LeBron why does it matter his cap-hold?

If LeBron opts out, then in order to keep Bron's Bird Rights, I believe they have to keep a cap hold.

I'm not sure how the cap hold is figured out but I believe it is more than the previous year's salary which for Bron is 15.8 million and probably more than he was going to make had he not opted out which is over 17 million.

so in order to know how much cap room they have left, you have to add that figure to existing salaries which puts you on the north side of 36 million before you sign Varejao.

Why can't they simply re-sign LeBron to a new contract? I mean, the cap hold would be at least 150% of his previous contract; if they want to sign the FA before re-signing LeBron it'd be basically impossible. I have no idea why would they want to do that though.

how bout the Knicks? That's the team everyone is talking about, anyway.

What about them? They still have 2 bad contracts in Curry and Jeffries - to me that's a worse situation than the Cavs, whose only suspect contract is Gibson's relatively small one. Yeah, if they let their FA walk and don't sign anybody besides this year draft pick and minimum salary guys, they'll probably have even more cap room than the Cavs, but why would LeBron join such a roster, especially considering he'll have to settle for a smaller contract?

[Moranis]

If Lebron's cap hold is 130% (which is in the range I was thinking), then his salary will count at about 20.75 million, which is far more than the just over 17 million his player option is.

The Cavs have no shot at signing a max player in addition to bringing Lebron back, without cutting out at a minimum Mo Williams salary and probably need to also cut out West or Gibson (and that is without re-signing Varejao).

If the Cavs want a guy like Bosh, then they need to trade for him this summer, or have Lebron and/or Bosh take a fair amount less than the maximum.

[winsomme]

Why can't they simply re-sign LeBron to a new contract? I mean, the cap hold would be at least 150% of his previous contract; if they want to sign the FA before re-signing LeBron it'd be basically impossible. I have no idea why would they want to do that though.

So Bron is going to re-sign with CLE before they've added another player to the roster?

and how much are they going to sign him for? more than he would have made in 2010/11?

What about them? They still have 2 bad contracts in Curry and Jeffries - to me that's a worse situation than the Cavs, whose only suspect contract is Gibson's relatively small one. Yeah, if they let their FA walk and don't sign anybody besides this year draft pick and minimum salary guys, they'll probably have even more cap room than the Cavs, but why would LeBron join such a roster, especially considering he'll have to settle for a smaller contract?

ummm, because it's New York. don't you think he is going to make more money being a New York Knick that a Cav.

plus, the Knicks are going to have two more high level draft picks by then.

So you have Bron + Bosh(?) + Chandler + Gallinari + Curry + top 10 pick from 2010 Draft + Madison Sq Garden...

[hpantazo]

Why can't they simply re-sign LeBron to a new contract? I mean, the cap hold would be at least 150% of his previous contract; if they want to sign the FA before re-signing LeBron it'd be basically impossible. I have no idea why would they want to do that though.

So Bron is going to re-sign with CLE before they've added another player to the roster?

and how much are they going to sign him for? more than he would have made in 2010/11?

What about them? They still have 2 bad contracts in Curry and Jeffries - to me that's a worse situation than the Cavs, whose only suspect contract is Gibson's relatively small one. Yeah, if they let their FA walk and don't sign anybody besides this year draft pick and minimum salary guys, they'll probably have even more cap room than the Cavs, but why would LeBron join such a roster, especially considering he'll have to settle for a smaller contract?

ummm, because it's New York. don't you think he is going to make more money being a New York Knick that a Cav.

plus, the Knicks are going to have two more high level draft picks by then.

So you have Bron + Bosh(?) + Chandler + Gallinari + Curry + top 10 pick from 2010 Draft + Madison Sq Garden...

what do the cavs have that would make lebron want to stay? I mean, he's not going to come out and say that his hometown sucks, but it does. The supporting cast is constantly dissapointing, and the bright lights of NY are calling. The knicks would have a team around him to win in less than a year.

[cordobes]

Why can't they simply re-sign LeBron to a new contract? I mean, the cap hold would be at least 150% of his previous contract; if they want to sign the FA before re-signing LeBron it'd be basically impossible. I have no idea why would they want to do that though.

So Bron is going to re-sign with CLE before they've added another player to the roster?

and how much are they going to sign him for? more than he would have made in 2010/11?

I think there's something you're misunderstanding here. Why would Cleveland sign the FA before re-signing LeBron? Of course it's not more than he would have made in 2010/11. But aren't we assuming he opts out in 2010? If he doesn't, than this is all moot.

What about them? They still have 2 bad contracts in Curry and Jeffries - to me that's a worse situation than the Cavs, whose only suspect contract is Gibson's relatively small one. Yeah, if they let their FA walk and don't sign anybody besides this year draft pick and minimum salary guys, they'll probably have even more cap room than the Cavs, but why would LeBron join such a roster, especially considering he'll have to settle for a smaller contract?

ummm, because it's New York. don't you think he is going to make more money being a New York Knick that a Cav.

plus, the Knicks are going to have two more high level draft picks by then.

So you have Bron + Bosh(?) + Chandler + Gallinari + Curry + top 10 pick from 2010 Draft + Madison Sq Garden...

[/quote]

No, I don't think. Besides, the Cavs can offer him a bigger contract than the Knicks, that are limited to 5 years.

The Knicks don't have their 2010 draft pick, it belongs to Utah. Who's Curry? Eddy or Stephen? Either way, I can't imagine why would anyone believe that's a good roster. You have 3 players who are yet to prove they're starting material, with 2 of them being combo forwards, playing LeBron/Bosh positions.

Anyway, this is well beyond the point and I don't want to go there. What we were arguing was if the Cavs can have cap room to sign LeBron and another max. FA after resigning Varejão. Are you already convinced they can, even if they have to dump Gibson?

[cordobes]

If Lebron's cap hold is 130% (which is in the range I was thinking), then his salary will count at about 20.75 million, which is far more than the just over 17 million his player option is.

The Cavs have no shot at signing a max player in addition to bringing Lebron back, without cutting out at a minimum Mo Williams salary and probably need to also cut out West or Gibson (and that is without re-signing Varejao).

If the Cavs want a guy like Bosh, then they need to trade for him this summer, or have Lebron and/or Bosh take a fair amount less than the maximum.

You're blatantly misinformed. By your reasoning, the only way the Cavs would have to sign 2 max free agents would be by only having rookie contracts in the books. Can't you see how nonsensical is that?

It seems people are making a huge confusion with LeBron cap hold. His cap hold is as important to Cleveland as it is to the Knicks. There's a reason why teams with room under the cap sign their own free-agents before the other teams free-agents: precisely to get rid of the cap holds and create room.

The Cavs, if they resign Varejão and dump Gibson (easy to do), can have Mo Williams ($ 9.3M), Varejão (say $6.5M), LeBron (25% of the cap - say $15 M) as the only guaranteed contracts in that off-season (plus 10% of West's contract).

[winsomme]

I think there's something you're misunderstanding here. Why would Cleveland sign the FA before re-signing LeBron? 

In order to convince LeBron to stay.

Anyway, this is well beyond the point and I don't want to go there. What we were arguing was if the Cavs can have cap room to sign LeBron and another max. FA after resigning Varejão. Are you already convinced they can, even if they have to dump Gibson?

lay it out for me:

2010/2011 payroll:

LeBron - $
Bosh - $
MoWill - $
Varejao - $
DWest - $
Gibson - $
Hickson - $
Jackson - $
2009 first rounder - $
2010 first rounder - $

[MMacOH]

Lebron isn't going to the Knicks.

[cordobes]

LeBron - $15M (25% cap)
Bosh - $15M (25% cap)
MoWill - $9.3 M
Varejao - $7 M
DWest - $0.3 M
Gibson - traded
Hickson - $1.5 M
Jackson - renounced
2009 first rounder - $1 M
2010 first rounder - $ traded with Gibson

Total: $49.1M and a $60 millions cap. Allocate the remaining $11 millions as you wish.

I think there's something you're misunderstanding here. Why would Cleveland sign the FA before re-signing LeBron?  

In order to convince LeBron to stay.

That's nonsensical. By that reasoning, no free-agent will sign with Cleveland without LeBron signing first, so they're basically screwed.   They'll negotiate the contracts, like any other team has to do.