Trading Ray Allen debate (merged)

[screwedupmaniac]

I agree with all the great things you had to say about truly a class act, Ray Allen, in your post but there is a couple of things to remember:

1.) At this time next year he's a 35 year old SG trying to put up shots using 35 year old legs after having played over 90 games. He might never have another good playoff season.

2.) He is an expiring $20 million contract during a time when teams across the league are looking to dump salary for various reasons(2010 free agency, fiscal problems, getting under the luxury tax, getting rid of long term contracts).

3.) Danny Ainge could be under a very strict budget and if he is the best way to add veteran help could be swapping Ray's $20 million salary for 2 or 3 players who add up to $20 million in salary and at the same time address bench needs.

As much as I love Ray, and if he was already signed to 2-3 more years I wouldn't even consider trading him, Ainge needs to explore all options to improve this team. Besides Perk and Rondo, two young emerging players with cheap contracts, the best trade-able and desirable asset the Celtics have is Ray Allen.

I think discussion on the subject is not only something that should be discussed but is something fun to talk about until the C's tip off again in November.

in response to your points...

1. Reggie Miller did it effectively for the Pacers until he was almost 40...why can't ray? he's a shooter, not a highflyer...so his knees should hold up much better than a SG like vince carter

2. The fact that he is an expiring contract in a year filled with so many other talents is a plus for us, and even more of a reason to hang onto him. we have a better chance of re-signing ray for less money in 2010 than we may have any other year. also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...also, where are we going to get the money to lock up rajon rondo in a big contract for years to come? there's a reason we're waiting to do a contract extension with rondo til next year, folks. danny isn't a fool...he didn't just trade for ray allen's talent, he traded for financial flexibility to stay competitive by offering the aging big 3 less money when each of their contracts runs up, making it possible to keep veteran AND young talent in place, and to also be able to bring new talent aboard. this is also a major factor as to why he refused to give James Posey the 5 year contract that he wanted.

3. management has said it in the past, they don't mind paying the luxury tax if it means we win. the only financial situation that Danny has to worry about is making sure we can pay everyone...not because of Wyc or other management, but because of the financial rules of the NBA.

at the end of the day, it just makes more financial and competitive sense to keep ray allen, let his contract expire, and then work it out in FA...we re-sign rondo, and if we hypothetically lose ray allen, there's a large pool of talent that will be more than willing to hop on board for a championship run. i'm not concerned though, i'm willing to bet that he re-signs with us to keep us competitive for the next few years. call me crazy, but i think he'll be the last of the Big 3 to retire...shooters typically last longer than slashers and big men.

oh, and even if we WERE looking to trade ray allen, i am yet to see a deal proposed on this board that our hypothetical trading partner WOULDN'T laugh at 

[bobdelt]

The problem with trading Ray Allen is that he's a star, and in the NBA you never get back any combination of players that's as good as the star you traded. Look at the KG trade. Look at the Ray Allen TO the Celtics trade. The team trading away the superstar invariably gets the short end of the stick--which is why we shouldn't trade him.

He's also a great guy--intelligent, friendly, and committed.

Do you want a nice team, or a team that wins.

It's hard situation - because you want to be loyal to your players - because that help the organization in certain ways down the road.

But at the same time - the players are rarely loyal to their teams.

Keeping Ray would be the nice thing to do - but not if we want to be able to compete in 3-5 years.

[Fan from VT]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

[screwedupmaniac]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

[Drucci]

I agree with the OP, it would be stupid in my opinion to trade Ray Allen unless you can get a superstar in exchange.

Ray is a great guy on and off the court, great athlete, great teammate, best shooter in the league, his work ethic and training routine are inspirational for other players, he is in the "All-Clutch team" of the league.

Sure, his defense seems to be less effective than last year and it won't improve next year. And yes, he goes on slumps occasionnally and did it twice in the playoffs but every shooter goes through that and without KG his efficiency has been limited by the Magic because they locked him defensively. The guy almost won the series against Chicago by himself, people tend to forget that.

For me, he is the heart of that team, as Paul and Kevin are, and I'm mad when I see that people (and fans) consider Ray just as a "big expiring contract". He is much more than that, you can't see him just as a financial asset to improve the team.

You won't get anything good by trading Ray improvement wise, so just keep him and focus on our priority : find a good bench.

[celticinorlando]

keep ray...he has another good year in him...esp with KG setting him screens. let his contract expire in 2010 and get a big free agent. it isnt the starters that need tweaked...it is the bench

[nickagneta]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

[wdleehi]

Ainge is going to go shopping this year with Ray.


But unless he gets a return he thinks will both help the Celtics win this year and stay in the hunt longer in the future, I think he holds onto Ray.



This is not a move just to trade Ray. 

[nickagneta]

Ainge is going to go shopping this year with Ray.


But unless he gets a return he thinks will both help the Celtics win this year and stay in the hunt longer in the future, I think he holds onto Ray.



This is not a move just to trade Ray. 

Absolutely, agree 100%.

[Brickowski]

I think trading Ray will be very difficult.  First of all, the Celtics would have to take back bad contracts, ands there aren't nearly as many bad contracts in the league as there used to be.

I would look at Charlotte, which does have a number of bad contracts, which is one reason why Bob Johnson is desperate to sell the team.

If the Bobcats took Ray Allen's expiring deal for Boris Diaw and filler, the team would be more salable. The filler I would want is Raja Bell and the always injured Scott May.  I would waive May.

I want no part of Vlad Rad or Nazr Mohammed, and I doubt if the Bobcats would part with Diop (but you never know).

[wdleehi]

I think trading Ray will be very difficult.  First of all, the Celtics would have to take back bad contracts, ands there aren't nearly as many bad contracts in the league as there used to be.

I would look at Charlotte, which does have a number of bad contracts, which is one reason why Bob Johnson is desperate to sell the team.

If the Bobcats took Ray Allen's expiring deal for Boris Diaw and filler, the team would be more salable. The filler I would want is Raja Bell and the always injured Scott May.  I would waive May.

I want no part of Vlad Rad or Nazr Mohammed, and I doubt if the Bobcats would part with Diop (but you never know).

That's the type of trade I do not want to see the Celtics make.  Has to be for a player better the Diaw.

[dlpin]

Ainge is going to go shopping this year with Ray.


But unless he gets a return he thinks will both help the Celtics win this year and stay in the hunt longer in the future, I think he holds onto Ray.



This is not a move just to trade Ray. 

Oh, I have no doubts that Ainge would entertain trades for just about anyone. I just don't think there is any way we'd get fair value for Allen. There are bigger expiring contracts out there.

[celts55]

So here's why I'm confussed. How can you debated in weather to trade Ray if you don't know who you are trading him for?

While Ray has always been one of my favorite players, would I trade him for Labron? Sure you's have to be crazy not to. Not that I'm saying that would every be possible, I'm just trying to make a point. If I was Danny I would trade anyone if the deal was right. So in closing, I think it's kind of a silly debate without knowing what you're getting in return.

[RAcker]

The problem with trading Ray Allen is that he's a star, and in the NBA you never get back any combination of players that's as good as the star you traded. Look at the KG trade. Look at the Ray Allen TO the Celtics trade. The team trading away the superstar invariably gets the short end of the stick--which is why we shouldn't trade him.

He's also a great guy--intelligent, friendly, and committed.

Who got the better of the Jason Kidd to the Mavericks trade? what about the Allen Iverson to the Pistons?

While I agree that most of the time that holds true, I think it's not a 100% given.

This is why I like Danny making this call.  He knows talent and he knows chemistry.  Trading straight for talent is great and all, but it's not a guarantee either way.  You have to get the right skills in return to fill all of the right holes.

I don't think Danny pulls the trigger on any deal involving Ray unless three major holes (a 5, a backup for Paul and a PG backup) are filled immediately.  With $20 million to play with, who knows what could happen?  Let the fun begin.

P.S.  Isn't it great to talk about winning now instead of the ****' draft.  Aaaaah.

[Fan from VT]

Ray is not the only expiring contract the Celtics have. Giddens' deal is a team option from here out, Walker, Pruitt, Tony and Scal are expiring, and if House takes his player option, his is expiring as well.

All together, these players could fetch up to 13.9 million dollars worth of contracts in return. The key is House, because if he doesn't take his option, it's only about 10.3 million. The C's wouldn't really miss any of these players if they got value in return; for other teams it would have to be a straight salary dump of players making up to 13 million per year but locked up past next season.



So, what players make 13.9 or less and play for teams that would trade them away to have expiring and cuttable contracts? (it needs to be a pure money move becasue trading 6 for 1 means the team would need to cut some of them).
Possibilities that I could see arising, depending on team finances:

Gerald wallace 9.1
boris diaw 9.0
Diop 6.1
hinrich 9.5
deng 10.4
dampier 10.2
ellis 11
crawford 9.4
steph jackson 7.7
maggette 9.0
Turiaf 4.2
troy murphy 11.1
Mike Dunleavy 9.8
TJ Ford 8.5
Foster 6.1
Kaman 10.4
baron 12.2
bogut 10.0
Charlie Bell 3.6
Dooling 3.6
CHandler 11.9
Posey 6.3
Peterson 6.1
Curry 10.6
Jefferies 6.5
dalembert 11.4
reggie evans 5.0
jason richardson 13.4
Barbosa 6.6
nocioni 7.5
Udrih 6.1
Garcia 5.8
Kapono 6.3
cj miles 3.7
jameson 11.7
 edit:
add:

Collison 6.35
Krstic 5.161
Battier 6.85
Prince 11.63
Hamilton 10.325
Maxiell 5.0


There may be some workable combos there. For example, I think golden state would give maggette away for expiring contracts, possibly crawford too since they want him to walk away. Would you do scal, tony, giddens and pruitt for crawford? for maggette? would golden state throw in Turiaf, and do a maggette + Turiaf for Scal, tony, eddie, pruitt, giddens, walker?

Phoenix is looking to cut dough, would they want richardson off the books?

Clippers need frontcourt room, would they like to wipe Kaman off the books?

New Orleans tried to give Chandler away to save money last year, would they do it again?

milwaukee's trying to make it financially ok to sign villanueva and sessions, have they soured on bogut?

Will chicago dump hinrich in order to make a big free agent splash to pair with Rose? THey were good last year without Deng, do they regret that contract?


Thoughts...