Trading Ray Allen debate (merged)

[threats13]

Regarding the contract of Brian Scalabrine..if i remember correctly he wants to play with the Celtics no matter what.  I think I read on CB a few months back a quote of Scal saying he would play for the Celtics for the league minimum in a second.  Well, Scal is a great asset to us on the bench with veteran leadership, again great work ethic, and hell hes not even that bad off the bench.  He hurt us against the Magic but we were so short on the bench him playing big minutes was inevitable. 

Point is having him and Allen on our roster is an incredible thing.  Its like having a future coach and the best mentor on the same team.  TA on the other hand can take a nice long walk right out the locker room.  He does nothing for us and was never as effective as he should have been.  House PLEASE stick around.  He's another guy a great teammate and improves team chemistry and hypes the crowd better than anyone on our team did this year (that means if KG was around he would have had that role but he wasnt so House took over).  In a perfect world House Allen and Scal are all on our roster next year and so is the Big Ticket.  We got something special I feel as if we should only mess with it if were guaranteed improvement.

[KungPoweChicken]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

[crownsy]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

[dlpin]

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

Not only were they the #3 defense overall, they were #2 against the 3pt shot, ray's specialty.

[Fan from VT]

Also, i just read that there are rumors that the charlotte owner is trying to sell, so would they be more likely to dump money? could okafor be had for giddens, scal, tony, eddie and possibly a future pick?

[nickagneta]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

So what you guys are saying is the tweaked hammy had nothing to do with throwing Ray's shot off and Orlando was solely responsible for Ray's shooting woes in that series. Apparently they were so good that they even effected the multitude of WIDE open looks that Ray missed.

And even if Ray having had a bad series was Orlando's responsibility 100%, which it definitely wasn't, what does that have to do with Ray being able to continue to be a great shooter as he ages? Reggie Miller is one of the only SG that had success after the age of 35 or so. SG's just just don't age well because their game is soooo reliant upon leg strength.

Danny, IMO, would be nuts on taking the chance that Ray's legs will hold out that much longer and sign him to a contract after next season.

[crownsy]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

So what you guys are saying is the tweaked hammy had nothing to do with throwing Ray's shot off and Orlando was solely responsible for Ray's shooting woes in that series. Apparently they were so good that they even effected the multitude of WIDE open looks that Ray missed.

And even if Ray having had a bad series was Orlando's responsibility 100%, which it definitely wasn't, what does that have to do with Ray being able to continue to be a great shooter as he ages? Reggie Miller is one of the only SG that had success after the age of 35 or so. SG's just just don't age well because their game is soooo reliant upon leg strength.

Danny, IMO, would be nuts on taking the chance that Ray's legs will hold out that much longer and sign him to a contract after next season.

No what were saying is that every time there is a loss on this board, 25 threads show up about how god awful every player on our team is who had a bad night, and how they should be traded/benched/cut over the next offseason.

Not once does anyone allow that, mabey, just mabey, the other team played well. And if you bring it up, your always accused of being an apologist for the player, and not willing to "look at facts"

as far as i can tell from post- loss threads, no celtic player should ever be able to be defended, if they are, its a clear indication that they suck.

That's the attitude that can get annoying that we are talking about, and it runs rampant in "lets blame player X!!!" threads. Did the hamstring hurt his shooting? i'm sure it was a factor. I think a bigger factor is that courtny lee is one hell of a premier defender at fighting through screens and getting a hand in a guys face, thats all we were saying.

[nickagneta]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

So what you guys are saying is the tweaked hammy had nothing to do with throwing Ray's shot off and Orlando was solely responsible for Ray's shooting woes in that series. Apparently they were so good that they even effected the multitude of WIDE open looks that Ray missed.

And even if Ray having had a bad series was Orlando's responsibility 100%, which it definitely wasn't, what does that have to do with Ray being able to continue to be a great shooter as he ages? Reggie Miller is one of the only SG that had success after the age of 35 or so. SG's just just don't age well because their game is soooo reliant upon leg strength.

Danny, IMO, would be nuts on taking the chance that Ray's legs will hold out that much longer and sign him to a contract after next season.

No what were saying is that every time there is a loss on this board, 25 threads show up about how god awful every player on our team is who had a bad night, and how they should be traded/benched/cut over the next offseason.

Not once does anyone allow that, mabey, just mabey, the other team played well. And if you bring it up, your always accused of being an apologist for the player, and not willing to "look at facts"

as far as i can tell from post- loss threads, no celtic player should ever be able to be defended, if they are, its a clear indication that they suck.

That's the attitude that can get annoying that we are talking about, and it runs rampant in "lets blame player X!!!" threads. Did the hamstring hurt his shooting? i'm sure it was a factor. I think a bigger factor is that courtny lee is one hell of a premier defender at fighting through screens and getting a hand in a guys face, thats all we were saying.

Fine I agree with that but since when have I ever been one of those guys?

I agree with what your saying but I have said over and over that trading Ray had everything to do with financial reasons and making the team better and not because I wanted him out of town because of a bad series.

I understand where you are coming from but my comment was in response to someone claiming that trading Ray was crazy because he could be a productive three point shooter until he was 39-40, like Reggie Miller.

I was only pointing out that if a tweaked hammy can effect his shot, what does someone think aging between the ages of 34 and 40 is going to do to his shot, given that it will be his legs that go first? If a tweaked hammy can effect his shooting that much, what is loss of leg strength and 14 years of playing NBA basketball on those legs going to do to his shot?

[crownsy]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

So what you guys are saying is the tweaked hammy had nothing to do with throwing Ray's shot off and Orlando was solely responsible for Ray's shooting woes in that series. Apparently they were so good that they even effected the multitude of WIDE open looks that Ray missed.

And even if Ray having had a bad series was Orlando's responsibility 100%, which it definitely wasn't, what does that have to do with Ray being able to continue to be a great shooter as he ages? Reggie Miller is one of the only SG that had success after the age of 35 or so. SG's just just don't age well because their game is soooo reliant upon leg strength.

Danny, IMO, would be nuts on taking the chance that Ray's legs will hold out that much longer and sign him to a contract after next season.

No what were saying is that every time there is a loss on this board, 25 threads show up about how god awful every player on our team is who had a bad night, and how they should be traded/benched/cut over the next offseason.

Not once does anyone allow that, mabey, just mabey, the other team played well. And if you bring it up, your always accused of being an apologist for the player, and not willing to "look at facts"

as far as i can tell from post- loss threads, no celtic player should ever be able to be defended, if they are, its a clear indication that they suck.

That's the attitude that can get annoying that we are talking about, and it runs rampant in "lets blame player X!!!" threads. Did the hamstring hurt his shooting? i'm sure it was a factor. I think a bigger factor is that courtny lee is one hell of a premier defender at fighting through screens and getting a hand in a guys face, thats all we were saying.

Fine I agree with that but since when have I ever been one of those guys?

I agree with what your saying but I have said over and over that trading Ray had everything to do with financial reasons and making the team better and not because I wanted him out of town because of a bad series.

I understand where you are coming from but my comment was in response to someone claiming that trading Ray was crazy because he could be a productive three point shooter until he was 39-40, like Reggie Miller.

I was only pointing out that if a tweaked hammy can effect his shot, what does someone think aging between the ages of 34 and 40 s going to do to his shot give that it will be his legs that go first. If a tweaked hammy can effect his shooting that much, what is loss of leg strength and 14 years of playing NBA basketball on those legs going to do to his shot?

Oh, my bad if you thought i was talking about you in particular nick, i have indeed never known you to be one of those guys, i was just responding to the post about giving the D some credit, didn't mean to sound like i was accusing you of doing it. It's just an attitude that irks me, and when i saw someone credit orlando's defense, i posted on it.

wasn't ment to be a "nick's gone crazy for saying the hamstring is a factor!" post or anything, i assure you. And i agree the hamstring was a factor, i just have seen alot of posts bashing ray and rondo for playing poorly after Chicago that don't take into account the jump between Chicago's "meh" defense and an orlando team that was a top defensive team all year.

[BballTim]

also, even if ray doesn't come back, we've got money to grab a good player in 2010 FA...

this is often stated, but not true. Just because an 18 million dollar contract expires doesn't mean you can spend 18 million on a player. you need to be 18 million under the cap for that to happen, and even with Ray's contract gone we would be well over the cap and have only the MLE to spend.

The only ways to replace Ray's salary slot with 18 million dollars worth of players would be by trading him now or finding a team that would agree to a sign and trade with Ray in 2010 (basically impossible).

then forget FA, but where are we going to get the flexibility to re-sign rondo? if nothing else, that's why we should keep ray allen...

How about the $9.5 million in expiring contracts of Scal, House, Pruitt and Tony Allen. And let's not even hear about "then let's trade those expiring contracts away and keep Ray" defense because it's a lot easier to trade away $20 million in one expiring contract for a great player than it is to trade away $9.5 million in 4 separate contracts for scrubs.

In response to your earlier post, Reggie Miller is the exception to the rule when discussing SG that stay effective after the age of 35. 99% of all SG lose it after the age of 35 because their entire shot is based on leg strength that usually gives out at that age. And yes that goes for jump shooters as well as slasher/finishers. Why else do you think Ray shot so poorly in the Orlando series. A tweaked hammy through his shot off. If he loses strength in his legs his shot is going to have big problems. Honestly, I don't see Danny taking the gamble that Ray will be in the 1% of SG that keep their leg strength after the age of 35, especially since he was one of those SGs that lost his shot due to leg strength.

How about giving the Orlando defense some credit? It wasn't like Ray was playing against the eighth grade youth team.

TP4U, it annoys me to no end how people act like the other team doesn't exist.

Orlando was the #3 defense in the NBA during the regular season.

  Actually they were #1 in defensive efficiency.

[slamtheking]

The list of options was a nice effort.  knowing the teams they're on without having to look them up would have been the icing on the cake. 

I like the idea of moving the expiring deals and keeping Ray for another year (and a reduced rate after that for a couple of years).  That's where Danny's going to have to earn his pay to build a better, more versatile, bench.  MLE, LLE and vet mins will only accomplish so much.

The problem is getting a good combo of players that don't use up all of our trading chips-->the downside of the KG trade-->Danny left the team thin in assets for future moves to shore up the team/bench.  We're seeing how that's impacting the team currently.  Given the steal of Gasol by the Lakers, is there any doubt KG could have been had for a little less?

[Evantime34]

Ray should not be traded for one reason. We will not get equal value for him. The reason you would trade him as an expiring contract would be to get a better player back with a worse contract. The problem with that is teams are not willing to give away a player better than Ray for just a salary dump move. In other words no one is going to give up a top 20 player in a salary dump move.

[jdpapa3]

Ray should not be traded for one reason. We will not get equal value for him. The reason you would trade him as an expiring contract would be to get a better player back with a worse contract. The problem with that is teams are not willing to give away a player better than Ray for just a salary dump move. In other words no one is going to give up a top 20 player in a salary dump move.

Yea, we wouldn't want to give up Ray for garbage. The point would be to find a younger guy, with a similar talent level to Ray that a team is trying to dump for financial reasons. This is definitely a feasible task for this offseason.

[Fan from VT]

The list of options was a nice effort.  knowing the teams they're on without having to look them up would have been the icing on the cake. 

I like the idea of moving the expiring deals and keeping Ray for another year (and a reduced rate after that for a couple of years).  That's where Danny's going to have to earn his pay to build a better, more versatile, bench.  MLE, LLE and vet mins will only accomplish so much.

The problem is getting a good combo of players that don't use up all of our trading chips-->the downside of the KG trade-->Danny left the team thin in assets for future moves to shore up the team/bench.  We're seeing how that's impacting the team currently.  Given the steal of Gasol by the Lakers, is there any doubt KG could have been had for a little less?

thanks for the comments. I also posted a similar list of ray allen trade options, because to my mind if we are fully committed to keeping ray, KG and pierce until their contracts expire, then we really need to trade the "expiring 6" for something of value. This is because this offseason, we have 2 ways to improve our roster: MLE/LLE contracts and trading expiring contracts. After this next season, the only ways to tinker with the roster will be: a draft pick in the 25-28 range, and MLE/LLE contracts or using bird rights to keep members from the current "expiring 6" on our roster; these are players who really don't do much for the team and are probably most valuable as money savers in trades to other teams. so i say if we get a good offer that uses only some combination of the "expiring 6," do it.

For example, i really don't see how shedding a bunch of guys who don't (or shouldn't) play for us into tyson chandler, kaman, or jason richardson limits flexibility; we weren't going to be players in the free agent market for a while anyway.

[Brickowski]

I think trading Ray will be very difficult.  First of all, the Celtics would have to take back bad contracts, ands there aren't nearly as many bad contracts in the league as there used to be.

I would look at Charlotte, which does have a number of bad contracts, which is one reason why Bob Johnson is desperate to sell the team.

If the Bobcats took Ray Allen's expiring deal for Boris Diaw and filler, the team would be more salable. The filler I would want is Raja Bell and the always injured Scott May.  I would waive May.

I want no part of Vlad Rad or Nazr Mohammed, and I doubt if the Bobcats would part with Diop (but you never know).

That's the type of trade I do not want to see the Celtics make.  Has to be for a player better the Diaw.

Diaw had an excellent year with Charlotte and is certainly the "big small forward" that Rivers craves.  Diaw sometimes disappears on offense, but his defense is always very good.  As for Bell, he's a poor man's Ray Allen.

Also, both of these guys are veterans, and Rivers likes veterans.  No point in trading Ray for young players who will rot on Rivers' bench.

As for getting another player as good as Ray Allen, that's unrealistic.  If that's what you want, just keep him and try to resign him for less money going forward.  The point of trading Ray is to fill holes.  A Diaw/Bell trade fills one big hole, and also helps to plug the hole that will be left if Ray leaves.