Tony Allen

[Greenbean]

I'd prefer Marbury's defense to Tony's at this point....

I have decided to nickname the Starbury version the Celtics got. "Bizzaro Starbury".

Old Marbury= selfish, fearless, cocky, no effort on D, team cancer
Bizzaro Starbury= unselfish, fearful, humble, busting his butt on D, good teammate.

Bizzare to say the least.

Perfect. TP

[BballTim]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

  While it was a mistake for TA to jump on that three if he'd backed off a little and given Gordon a clean look he'd be getting just as much criticism. Who on the Celts has played great defense on Gordon? Who's done a much better job than TA?

why exactly do i need to find a bench player who is doing better to conclude that he's an overrated defender given his history of stupid fouls in key situations?

Our whole contingent of bench guards are bad defenders, the difference is, TA is supposed to be our "defensive stopper" Thats the new excuse for his continued occupation of a celtics uniform among the TA crowd.

Pointing out correctly that the rest of our guards outside rondo struggle at defense is not a defense of TA, its a weak deflection that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is that TA is a vastly overrated defender, and should be replaced next year as our defender off the bench if this is all he can give us.

  Where did I say anything about bench players?

[NHcat3]

IMO Marbury has played just as good D on Gordon as TA- even better as he is quicker and doesn't fall behind like TA/Ray. Doc benched Marbury the whole 2nd half until the end of 4th/OT. He hadn't shot the ball since early in the 2nd Q so I'm not surprised he passed up that 3. He's shown when given a decent run (game 3) he get's into a rhythm offensively and gains confidence. So if he's not hurting us defensively- which he isn't- to me he's a much better option than TA. At least there's a chance he'll heat up and knock down some shots or make a great pass.

[BballTim]

Well, I definitely do not agree that Tony deserves more minutes after last night, and the catastrophic defensive mistake he made is proof why.

But, he's got to play - in short stretches so his short attention span doesn't beat us. We're simply too beat up to rout this team, and we can't afford that inability to think on the floor for any length of time. Maybe a couple of minutes at a time, but certainly no more.

  That wasn't the first 3 shot foul we've given up this series, was it? We've also had a few late game fouls where people bit on pump fakes, and we had that clear path foul by Scal and not fouling Salmons at the end of the other game. Did you call all of those fouls disastrous? Did you call any of them catastrophic, or point them out about 10 times in the same thread?

I agree that all those other mental errors were just as egregiously stupid as Tony's error, however, the problem here is that Pierce(who committed one three point foul), Scal, and Ray have a history of making the right decisions and playing smart basketball. Tony does not.

Tony has been thinking he can block every shot put up by his defender since he entered the league. Everyone in the league knows this, hence, the abundance of fouls that Tony has in tight game situations that are caused by him going for head fakes or by trying to block shots he has no right thinking he can block. Tonight's OT blunders are isolated instances with Tony as off the top of my head I remember a late game foul for a three pointer last year versus the Lakers and of course the famous Billups foul that cost the C's a game last year.

These errors have never been corrected on Tony's part. His game is still the same game it was when he entered the league. That reeks of a lack of intelligence and that's what Tony exhibits on the floor. It's easy to point to others miscues in defense of Tony as everyone makes mental errors but the problem is those players aren't known historically for making those mistakes where as Tony is.

  While it was a mistake for TA to jump on that three if he'd backed off a little and given Gordon a clean look he'd be getting just as much criticism. Who on the Celts has played great defense on Gordon? Who's done a much better job than TA?

I have no problem with the way Tony plays defense most of the time but he is just way to mental mistake prone to keep him out there for any extended period of time and especially late.  But it's not a given that if Tony didn't jump on that play that Gordon makes the shot as your defense of him is alluding to. If he had held his ground and put his arms straight in the air then he did the best he could and congrats to Gordon if he makes an extremely difficult shot after some great defense is played by him.

  I didn't allude in any way to it being a given that the shot goes in if not for the foul. But near the end of game 3 Gordon hit a shot with TA covering him where he was forced into a one-handed bank shot while he warded off TA with his other hand. TA was roundly criticized for his defense on that play. I think the first post or two were submitted before the ball hit the floor after it went through the net.

But Tony will always make that mistake. He had no right trying to block that shot earlier in the OT. Gordon faked him out and was clearly 5 feet by Tony and in the air when Tony jumped from afar to attempt to block the shot and instead landed on Gordon(or next to him) and sent him to the line after Gordon missed.(See Gordon can actually miss a shot). That's five free trips to the line for a team that otherwise couldn't do a thing offensively in the OT. That can't happen.

  He was trying to bother the shot, not block it. He didn't land on Gordon. His mistake was landing close enough to Gordon that Gordon was able to lean into TA's path. Kind of like when Paul Pierce jumped into the guy flying past him and then making the three, only the official blew his whistle.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

All you TA haters are a sad and sorry lot.  No matter what happens, you keep sticking to your old biases. 

The fact is, if you look at it as an impartial observer, Tony played a great defensive game last night.  Doc credited him and Perk for "turning the game around," with their "phenomenal" defense.  Everybody remembers the foul on the 3 pointer, but nobody seems to remember the big turnover TA forced on Derrick Rose with 51 seconds left, in addition to the multiple times TA kept Gordon from getting or making a shot.

The fact is, once Ray fouled out, TA was the best option to defend down the stretch and for the most part he delivered and helped allow the Celtics to make a comeback.  Y'all should be thankful instead of blowing up the Internet with you bias-fueled hatred.

The fact is, we don't have anybody off the bench who can do what TA does.  Eddie House has been taken completely out of this series by Chicago.  He can't get open on offense and the Bulls search him out on the defensive end in order to exploit him.  Somebody earlier in the thread said they'd have put Rondo on Gordon and House on Rose.  That's nuts.  Rose would have shot layup after layup, just like Gordon did when House was guarding him.  Eddie House has zero business being in the game, expect as a spot-up shooter in strictly offensive situations.  Marbury is the only other bench player (besides TA last night) who has even made a positive contribution when a game has been in doubt (during the 1st half of Game 3), but even though Marbury's defense is better than it's been, TA's is still better.  Gotta give Doc big props for going with TA down the stretch.

As for those fouls:  the first one was pure crap.  TA made a great attempt at bothering the shot, made zero contact with Gordon, and then, after the ball was let go, Gordon falls down and tangles up with TA in some purely incidental contact.  But, as happened multiple times last night, the refs bailed Gordon out, giving him a hand-wrapped present of two free throws.  Great defense by TA, bad call by the refs.  The 2nd foul was even more egregious.  TA works Gordon into stepping out of bounds (refs don't see it since they were so concerned about bailing out Gordon again) and then initiates contact against a set and completely vertical TA, drawing a cheap foul and three shots.  I guarantee you if their roles were reversed, and TA had been the one forcing the 3, either the out-of-bounds would have been called, or there would have been a no-call on the blocked three.  But, because it's Gordon and he's getting every single call all night, he gets another one.  Meanwhile the idiots of the Internet explode in universal ignorance and hatred. 

TA should play 15-20 minutes on Thursday.  If he does, we'll win.

[ScoobyDoo]

I agree with you Potatoes and you as well Kungpowe. I am not the biggest TA fan. If we had a better replacement, fine. But he's the stickiest, toughest wing defender we have outside of Pierce when he's focused on D. TA should be playing 15-20 a night in this series and more if, as some have said and it is true, he isn't making too many bone headed plays. If he's nto making too many bad plays let him keep running, get Pierce and Ray more rest early so their legs are there late.

TA can be rotated around on three guys mainly: Gordon, Rose and Salmons. I think TA on Salmons would take away alot of Salmons speed.

If Tony plays a good 20-25 minutes of hard nosed D tomorrow I agree we'll win and close.

I alos like Tony long term for this team at the right price and as the 3rd off guard/small. He can come in and stick people for 10-15 a night. Good 8th or 9th man.

I'd Love to see Giddens be able to make the jump and contribute with some scoring firepower next year and Tony behind him with Defense. Nice one two combo off the bench at back up off guard. Only if Giddens is really ready though. Otherwise we probably need to get another wing for one more season.

[nickagneta]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

[get_banners]

i thought TA played great D last night. the one play everyone is talking about is the foul on gordon's 3, which happened only because TA played him really well - he forced him to possibly step out of bounds (haven't seen a good angle yet, but at the very least, there's no doubt it was close), and gordon's arm made contact with tony when he got his shot up. he didn't lunge into him or force the contact, either of which are the standard bone-headed fouls. it was a foul, but was more a bad circumstance than a bad play - and he might have forced him out of bounds before the shot.

[KungPoweChicken]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

That's a very informative post; there's no wonder why you have 1011 Tommy Points.

[CDawg834]

And here we go with the "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about" comeback.

Look, I'm sure there are some lurkers or immature posters around somewhere who are of the "PP34 RULZ LEBRON SUX!!!111!!" variety, but I really doubt there are many posters in this forum who don't know what they're talking about.

One could make an argument for or against almost any player in the league if you really wanted to, but I would argue that the TA haters on this board are far from ignorant about the Celtics.

After Ray Allen fouled out with approximately 5:30 left (10 total minutes counting overtime), Gordon scored 12 of his 26 points.  While he didn't exactly go off, I wouldn't call 12 points in 10 minutes good defense.  Tony was guarding him during a good portion of those 10 minutes.

[crownsy]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

That's a very informative post; there's no wonder why you have 1011 Tommy Points.

way to make it personal, Nick's not allowed to joke around because you don't like him now?

nothign like a good old debat eover tony allen to get peopel ticked off at each other.

[KungPoweChicken]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

That's a very informative post; there's no wonder why you have 1011 Tommy Points.

way to make it personal, Nick's not allowed to joke around because you don't like him now?

nothign like a good old debat eover tony allen to get peopel ticked off at each other.

No, but after a few well thought out posts in favor of Allen, you'd like to see something more than "If Tony Allen plays 25 minutes the Celtics will lose." But I guess when you have all the Celticsblog elitist by your side, you can say Tony sucks without further elaboration and get showered with Tommy Points.

[BballTim]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

  Seems pretty reasonable, since we're 18-3 this year with Tony playing 20+ minutes.

[nickagneta]

If Tony Allen is given 20-25 minutes of playing time tomorrow we will lose.

That's a very informative post; there's no wonder why you have 1011 Tommy Points.

way to make it personal, Nick's not allowed to joke around because you don't like him now?

nothign like a good old debat eover tony allen to get peopel ticked off at each other.

No, but after a few well thought out posts in favor of Allen, you'd like to see something more than "If Tony Allen plays 25 minutes the Celtics will lose." But I guess when you have all the Celticsblog elitist by your side, you can say Tony sucks without further elaboration and get showered with Tommy Points.

Sorry, next time I'll provide links to the 7 other posts I have in this thread that have already explained my well thought out reasons as to why Tony isn't a great defender and why he can't be trusted with extended minutes. Or maybe I'll just repost the same post over and over again. Whichever you would prefer.

[EJPLAYA]

TA supporters can't give any ration reasons behind liking the guy therefore they instead choose to make personal attacks. Stating over and over " he's a great defender" doesn't make it so. The guy is a "decent" defender, nothing more. Great offensive players like Gordon lick their chops when a guy like TA is guarding them because they know they can bait them into committing stupid fouls. You may call it getting bailed out by the refs, but everyone else would call it a dumb foul by TA and a smart play by Gordon.

You don't have to agree with the anti-TA crowd, but stop making it personal. No one does that to you.