Author Topic: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings  (Read 23633 times)

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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2009, 02:47:55 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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(Question: do we have to name the 12 man roster for the entire playoffs before the playoffs start, or can the rosters be altered between series, in case of injuries? It would be nice to have ten men set (eleven if we sign Marbury), and then be able to choose between Walker, Giddens and an extra big depending on the series.)


Yeah, I think rosters are set before each series and can be changed in between playoff rounds - last year I think the Pistons sat Lindsay Hunter for Walter Herrman against Orlando and reversed it for our series.

Thanks, TP for the answer.
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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2009, 02:48:18 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Quote from: BillfromBoston

...

What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

The plan was clearly always about playing the trade and waiver wire game, so if it pays off then it looks like he did his job well...
Well said, Bill.  TP for perspective.

Wouldn't it be nice if those same people learned from this and stayed in their holes a little longer next time, instead of 2nd guessing every move the minute after it's made?  That's optimistic though, as I'm sure nobody will rush to admit their mistakes when they're so easily rationalized.  I can already hear the refrain: Danny didn't have a 'plan'.  Danny's just lucky.  Danny lucked into great waiver wire savings just like he lucked into the KG trade, the signing of Posey, and the waiver pickups of PJ and Sam.  All luck, no foresight.  Yeah, but it keeps happening over and over.  After awhile you gotta admit Danny might have an idea what he's doing...unless he's the luckiest GM ever.
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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2009, 02:54:40 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

Well, with all due respect to Salmon and Mashed Potatoes. "It is indeed better to be lucky than smart." If it takes a rescinded Tyson Chandler trade for Joe Smith to end up in Shamrock green great. (Great!) But that's not a reasonable Plan B. And the playoff picture is somewhat different if instead of Marbury and Smith we re-sign Sam Cassell and bring Calvin Booth aboard. Wouldn't you agree?

Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2009, 02:56:57 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

Well, with all due respect to Salmon and Mashed Potatoes. "It is indeed better to be lucky than smart." If it takes a rescinded Tyson Chandler trade for Joe Smith to end up in Shamrock green great. (Great!) But that's not a reasonable Plan B. And the playoff picture is somewhat different if instead of Marbury and Smith we re-sign Sam Cassell and bring Calvin Booth aboard. Wouldn't you agree?

Cosign.  +1.  If we sign any players subsequent to the deadline, how is this evidence of Danny's genius, especially after only the sheerest luck kept Smith from being traded?

Just because something works out okay doesn't mean it was a good plan.

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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2009, 03:06:45 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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Also, the argument could at least be offered that if Ainge had spent more of the money available to the team, we would then have been in a better position at the deadline to deal for something more than luxury tax savings and roster space.

Of course, if we'd signed Posey or Gomes or Delonte, Chris Anderson or Matt Barnes, etc. we might not even be hanging our hopes on a Stephon Marbury buyout...

Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2009, 03:09:35 PM »

Offline zerophase

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Also, the argument could at least be offered that if Ainge had spent more of the money available to the team, we would then have been in a better position to deal for something more than luxury tax savings and roster space.

Of course, if we'd signed Posey or Gomes or Delonte, Chris Anderson or Matt Barnes, etc. we might not even be hanging our hopes on a Stephon Marbury buyout...

See I don't understand the huge issue say if we had traded for Nocioni. On the last year of his deal we could use him as a trade asset. And in his prime now, we could use him to keep contending and solidify our bench.

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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2009, 03:11:36 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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From Hollinger's chat:

Quote
Brenton (Boston, MA): Are the C's getting Nocioni, and who are they giving up.

SportsNation John Hollinger: (3:06 PM ET ) Apparently not. Deal would have been Allen, Scalabrine, Giddens and O'Bryant (Big Baby might also have been in it). It was about salary neutral for 2009 so Kings didn't feel any urgency to do it -- if Nocioni plays well they might get better offers in summer or next year to unload that contract.

Those of you worried about sending BBD out, would you have been OK with this instead?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 03:29:08 PM by Lucky17 »
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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2009, 03:30:48 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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Quote from: BillfromBoston

...

What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

The plan was clearly always about playing the trade and waiver wire game, so if it pays off then it looks like he did his job well...
Well said, Bill.  TP for perspective.

Wouldn't it be nice if those same people learned from this and stayed in their holes a little longer next time, instead of 2nd guessing every move the minute after it's made?  That's optimistic though, as I'm sure nobody will rush to admit their mistakes when they're so easily rationalized.  I can already hear the refrain: Danny didn't have a 'plan'.  Danny's just lucky.  Danny lucked into great waiver wire savings just like he lucked into the KG trade, the signing of Posey, and the waiver pickups of PJ and Sam.  All luck, no foresight.  Yeah, but it keeps happening over and over.  After awhile you gotta admit Danny might have an idea what he's doing...unless he's the luckiest GM ever.

Wait a minute, here.

Before I get into this, Ainge has been an excellent GM. Just want to make that clear before I start. The KG and Allen trades were great, and I supported both when they were made (even the Allen one, before Garnett agreed to come here). But he's not infallible.

How can you say that if we get Smith, it's not luck? He was traded two days ago to a team that was not going to buy him out. The fact that the Thunder rescinded the deal is pure, dumb luck and couldn't possibly be part of anybody's "plan"?

As for PJ Brown, I have not seen anything refuting that he came out of retirement because Pierce, Garnett and Allen - not Ainge - talked him into coming to Boston. So how does that prove Ainge's skill?

Onto your general argument, how would getting Marbury and Smith mean that O'Bryant or Allen was a good signing? Or that letting Posey go was a good idea? Ainge already seems to recognize O'Bryant was a waste. Allen seemed like a poor replacement for Posey, and I think that was proven this year, even before he was predictably hurt for the remainder of the season.

And what if Marbury and Smith don't pan out? What if they do a fine job, but we don't have the bench depth on the perimeter to make up for the loss of Posey? How do these issues fit into your scenario? To me, this Nocioni trade, in the highly unlikely event that it occurs, would be a big step toward shoring up the bench and filling a role that we know helps this team. But in a sense, wouldn't this trade also point toward the fact that maybe Ainge made an offseason mistake in letting Poz go?

And if it could have been Giddens instead of Davis, I would have been in favor of doing it regardless of whether we get Smith. Although, if we get Smith, I'd prefer to give up Davis rather than Giddens.
Go Celtics.

Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2009, 03:31:56 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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Sources are saying that they're not sure which side rejected the deal. If it was them it makes sense. If it was us it had to be ownership nixing the deal which makes me sad.
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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2009, 03:33:47 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

Well, with all due respect to Salmon and Mashed Potatoes. "It is indeed better to be lucky than smart." If it takes a rescinded Tyson Chandler trade for Joe Smith to end up in Shamrock green great. (Great!) But that's not a reasonable Plan B. And the playoff picture is somewhat different if instead of Marbury and Smith we re-sign Sam Cassell and bring Calvin Booth aboard. Wouldn't you agree?

Cosign.  +1.  If we sign any players subsequent to the deadline, how is this evidence of Danny's genius, especially after only the sheerest luck kept Smith from being traded?

Just because something works out okay doesn't mean it was a good plan.

Keep telling that to yourselves, guys.  But after awhile even the most hard-headed of y'all are going to have to start to recognize a pattern here...

It wasn't about Joe Smith or Marbury or this or that...it was the well-reasoned hunch that SOMEBODY helpful would be bought out after the trading deadline and that the Cs--being championship contenders--would be there to scoop up Veteran Free Agent X.  So, here we are, after the madness of the trading deadline, with a whole host of potential free agents to choose from....

But, sure, keep using the rationale that Danny's on a great 3-year run of luck...that's certainly plausible, no matter how unlikely.  If that's what it takes to get by, so be it...
Folly. Persist.

Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2009, 03:35:58 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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What i'd like to know is this: If Boston ends up getting Joe Smith and Stephon Marbury, what is everyone going to have to say for themselves that ****ed about the past off-season and Danny "screwing up?"

Well, with all due respect to Salmon and Mashed Potatoes. "It is indeed better to be lucky than smart." If it takes a rescinded Tyson Chandler trade for Joe Smith to end up in Shamrock green great. (Great!) But that's not a reasonable Plan B. And the playoff picture is somewhat different if instead of Marbury and Smith we re-sign Sam Cassell and bring Calvin Booth aboard. Wouldn't you agree?

Cosign.  +1.  If we sign any players subsequent to the deadline, how is this evidence of Danny's genius, especially after only the sheerest luck kept Smith from being traded?

Just because something works out okay doesn't mean it was a good plan.

Keep telling that to yourselves, guys.  But after awhile even the most hard-headed of y'all are going to have to start to recognize a pattern here...

It wasn't about Joe Smith or Marbury or this or that...it was the well-reasoned hunch that SOMEBODY helpful would be bought out after the trading deadline and that the Cs--being championship contenders--would be there to scoop up Veteran Free Agent X.  So, here we are, after the madness of the trading deadline, with a whole host of potential free agents to choose from....

But, sure, keep using the rationale that Danny's on a great 3-year run of luck...that's certainly plausible, no matter how unlikely.  If that's what it takes to get by, so be it...

Uh huh.  And if it wasn't Smith (who was traded away), who was this white knight who was going to save us?  Calvin Booth?

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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2009, 03:41:53 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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As of now it's Will Solomon, Stand-In Extraordinaire.

Hat tip to SW.

Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2009, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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Keep telling that to yourselves, guys.  But after awhile even the most hard-headed of y'all are going to have to start to recognize a pattern here...

It wasn't about Joe Smith or Marbury or this or that...it was the well-reasoned hunch that SOMEBODY helpful would be bought out after the trading deadline and that the Cs--being championship contenders--would be there to scoop up Veteran Free Agent X.  So, here we are, after the madness of the trading deadline, with a whole host of potential free agents to choose from....

But, sure, keep using the rationale that Danny's on a great 3-year run of luck...that's certainly plausible, no matter how unlikely.  If that's what it takes to get by, so be it...

Well, I agree with a certain portion of your premise - there is nothing wrong with hoping for some help via players who are bought out during the year, particularly when you have a championship-caliber roster of veteran players who have good relationships with and reputations among the types of veteran players who are likely to help your team if and when they are bought out. It is fine to hope for those additions. But I see a couple of problems.

First, being in a position to take the help is one thing - relying on it is just a bit dangerous when you have a relatively limited window and a chance to now with a great but aging core. Like Roy pointed out, if the Smith trade had not been miraculously rescinded, who is the answer to our center problem? PJ didn't change his mind. Mourning didn't want to come. We passed on Mutumbo apparently. Do you really think Mikki Moore, Chris Mihm or Calvin Booth would have been a suitable #2 center? And what happens if Marbury keeps up his childish behavior and refuses to give up $2 mil so NY won't agree to a buyout?

Second, and maybe I'm putting words in Bill's mouth here but it seemed like he was saying that getting Smith and Marbury would justify every decision Ainge made in the offseason because he was always planning on picking up guys midseason. The fact is none of the moves the Celtics made in the offseason helped our position to sign newly bought out free agents right now. Paying Patrick O'Bryant for 2/3 of a season didn't help toward getting Joe Smith or any other free agent who could be bought out. Using salary cap money and a roster spot to allow Sam Cassell to be an assistant coach and joke teller didn't help toward getting Stephon Marbury. That we've cut the ties with those guys is pretty good evidence of that fact.

Maybe not signing Posey helped - if we have to use some MLE money to get Smith (I don't think that will be the case, I think we'll go veteran's minimum if and hopefully when we get him). But other than that, having Posey wouldn't have hurt. And while it would have been one less roster space, we hopefully wouldn't have signed Allen, so we'd have the roster spot right here. I just don't see how signing a risky backup point guard and fortunately getting a solid backup center who should be bought out after the trade that would have made him unavailable was rescinded proves that letting Posey go was a good idea. And I definitely don't see how it makes the decisions to give money to POB, TA and Cassell any better.

Bottom line, to me - Things working out, whether through luck or subsequent good moves, doesn't mean that bad moves didn't happen. And it certainly doesn't mean that those who commented on bad moves and were proven right should have to apologize because something good, but completely unrelated, happened later.

(This is different from my still-standing and oft-disputed contention that Raef and Roy for Ratliff and Telfair was and still is a terrible move, as in that case, the moves were related to a later move that in the eyes of many justified the original bad move.)
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Re: Chad ford rumor--C's/Kings
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2009, 06:21:28 PM »

Offline Edgar

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Open your eyes
If Joe Smith and Marbuty land here
it isnt Danny Ainge
It WAS Danny Ainge partially

It is a championship chance and the big 3
Its free agent MAGNET!

He gets a piece of the credit
for putting those 3 together
But the players who got the championship last year earn the rest
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Nice to be back!