Surprising Ainge didn't take either Chalmers or Jordan with the 30th pick...

[BillfromBoston]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

The mission now has to be to plug the holes in the bench for another title run. If it's anything else, then even I overestimate the competence of this front office.

The reason it is true and you're certain it isn't is because you are using opinion as fact when assuming Ainge was "throwing away" 2009 for the future.

We all understand you are convinced that this team cannot repeat as built - something that isn't the world's riskiest statement since repeating is a low percentage probability for any team having to go through Clev/Orl/LA/SA...

The draft is the LIFE BLOOD of a franchise when it comes to potentially getting a high caliber player for virtually no money and then having control over their future.

Free Agency is the most expensive way to address needs and can cripple a franchise if the money is spent unwisely. I am positive that Ainge's decison not to overspend for the players he made offers to is indicative of how he values future FA markets as well as his belief that he could add waiver wire vets and would also see his current team grow and improve themselves.

You are treating the FA market of this past off-season as if it was the only way to solidify another title for this season and that Ainge "screwed up" because he didn't add anyone for any monetary denomination.

Beside the fact that the team has 37 more games to go and is 1 loss out of having the best record in the NBA - the team is still hunting for vets to fill limited roles and has kept flexibility in place to grow some younger players into key roles while leaving the option open to pursue more substantial FA in the following 2-3 FA markets -- all of which are in the window for this team.

Ainge didn't "give up" this season, he took a calculated risk that he could address the very limited holes this team has during the regular season. I fully expect Ainge to make some qulaity offers to some big time vets this coming off-season - probably 2 or 3 MLE worthy players in this years crop at the right amount of years.

[bucknersrevenge]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

One player is getting to apply his skills to a sub-.500 team with no depth and the other is taking a backseat on a championship team loaded at his position.

Giddens was consistently rated higher on most team's draft boards unless he had been completely ruled out due to "character concerns."

Giddens got first round consideration from at least 4 teams I know of, but once Arthur and Greene started sliding all types of things transpired.

Mbah Moute was always considered a 2nd round pick and many teams didn't have him on the draft board at all...good for Milwaukee for IDing him as a quality selection, but until Giddens gets his shot at PT or is out of the league, I'll firmly believe that Giddens is the superior talent - and i'm not alone...

not

even

close.....

[winsomme]

Guys, you are both very smart basketball people and you are quibbling over very little in total difference in what you are saying.

I'm not a smart basketball person. Also, I've said several times I liked almost every minute I watched from Giddens so far; that's not the question here.

But when I give an opinion on a player, it may be right or wrong (probably it's wrong), but it's based on something I watched and thought about. I'm not going to attribute traits to a player I never watched - at most, my eyes play tricks with me and I see stuff that simply isn't there (or I don't see stuff that is there).  Now, when someone says that player X is used to switch on picks and I've watched like 30 games of that same team and they almost never switch on picks, I know that the opinions of that person are not to be taken seriously. Ditto for supposedly having inside sources and going to another forum and making questions about that situation to the fans of the team. Or that the 7th defence in terms of def. eff. in the league "sux". Etc, etc.

Hopefully Giddens becomes better than LRMAM, it's not really that hard to imagine (although I'll never understand why would anyone trade a player who's already so good - better rebounder, passer, etc - and with such a high ceiling for a draft pick); and all I asked was "why so?". But to simply distort facts to argue this point of view is just plain wrong.

Do you for a second think that because I say I have insider sources for information that I am in a position to arbitrarily call up said source and ask him abscure questions in order to satisfy an internet debate?

Truth of the matter is that if you are a Milwaukee Bucks fan and have watched 30 games of that team you probably are aware of some stuff i'm not - I watch all 30 teams and the top 25 NCAA teams, I don't have a great deal of time to focus all my attention on one.

However, I know Mbah Moute's game inside and out - I know what his strengths and weakneses are and have compiled statistical FACTS about his usage - I can also reference any game and watch it to review - like when you start talking about him being used as a 2 when he spends a majority of his time not playing the 2...

You can disregard everything I have said because i said he is good for switching on picks, which is true...but discounting my opinion on a player i've likely watched far longer than you and have far, far more resources to evaluate is simply foolish - but do what you want.

Mbah Moute is an off-ball 3/4 who will probably be moved full time to the 3 if he can improve his atrocious spot-up shooting game. He's got decent enough form, so I don't see why he can't do this.

But Mbah Moute will never be a starting wing player unless he finds some perfect situation where he can master 3 point shooting and be a team's Bruce Bowen.

Right now his highest probability of future role, based off his current skill set and usage is as a 3/4 defender who gets hustle points and inefficiently takes elbow jumpers...that's who he is, period...

...and Sessions is a potential FEATURE PG in training...his drop in PT had a lot more to do with things you are most certainly not seeing on the court. Like most young players, he has things to work on, but he didn't get his PT cut in half because of the reasons you stated - they are a small piece of the puzzle and something that this  team is more than willing to work through as long as it doesn't cost them franchise-caliber money to do so...

You don't believe this is from the horses mouth, that's your bad...

you gotta admit BFB, that whether or not MBM will ever be a starting wing isn't the only important question to ask in regards to his value....

on this Cs team without Pose he could be a nice component to two more Title runs with the BIg 3...especially without Pose and few options to get in other players...

[cordobes]

I can't keep the pace when opinions change too fast. Nice to see you recognizing you don't really watch a lot of games, that's pretty different from the first stance. And that he'd be seeing minutes if he was playing for the C's, that he'll be moved full time for the 3. And that you didn't really know what was going on with Sessions (I don't understand: weren't you sure it had to do with his free-agent status?). Also, from Millsap to Bowen goes a decent separation. Or maybe not, afterall they're just off-the-ball 3/4s.

Noted your strong conviction that your analysis is better than mine. I'm not into appeals from authority, but whatever, to each his own.

And, once for all, Joe Smith wasn't a free-agent this off-season. Saying Ainge did well not signing him every thread is bizarre; he couldn't sign him even if he wanted to.

Finally, the difference between the 2 and the 3 is immaterial. Different players with different skill-sets, but that's all. The fact that statistically a player is charted at the 3 doesn't mean he hasn't been guarding the opponent 2 in a given game.

[BballTim]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

The mission now has to be to plug the holes in the bench for another title run. If it's anything else, then even I overestimate the competence of this front office.

  I would expect that Giddens and Walker were more likely post-House/TAllen/Posey than post-big three. What else is he going to do when he's going into the draft with the 30th and 60th picks? Should he have expected to come out of the draft with solid playoff contributors from such late draft picks? And while Ainge is clearly looking to improve the team we're playing about as well as we did last year in almost every category.

[BballTim]

you gotta admit BFB, that whether or not MBM will ever be a starting wing isn't the only important question to ask in regards to his value....

on this Cs team without Pose he could be a nice component to two more Title runs with the BIg 3...especially without Pose and few options to get in other players...

  This may surprise you but I've been watching the NBA for years and I've seen a lot of teams win titles without Posey, or even a nearly exact replica of Posey, on their rosters. It can be done, and it will be done this year unless you see the Hornets lapping the field. We're playing about as well as we did last year without Posey and they're playing somewhat worse than they did last year even though they have him.

[winsomme]

you gotta admit BFB, that whether or not MBM will ever be a starting wing isn't the only important question to ask in regards to his value....

on this Cs team without Pose he could be a nice component to two more Title runs with the BIg 3...especially without Pose and few options to get in other players...

  This may surprise you but I've been watching the NBA for years and I've seen a lot of teams win titles without Posey, or even a nearly exact replica of Posey, on their rosters. It can be done, and it will be done this year unless you see the Hornets lapping the field. We're playing about as well as we did last year without Posey and they're playing somewhat worse than they did last year even though they have him.

I'm not sure that that is the point i am making, but sarcasm noted...

I'm just looking at the construct of this Cs team (not every Title winning team in the history of the game) and IMO a defensive minded 3/4 is a very useful tool to have in our schemes and with our personnel....

[winsomme]

you gotta admit BFB, that whether or not MBM will ever be a starting wing isn't the only important question to ask in regards to his value....

on this Cs team without Pose he could be a nice component to two more Title runs with the BIg 3...especially without Pose and few options to get in other players...

  This may surprise you but I've been watching the NBA for years and I've seen a lot of teams win titles without Posey, or even a nearly exact replica of Posey, on their rosters. It can be done, and it will be done this year unless you see the Hornets lapping the field. We're playing about as well as we did last year without Posey and they're playing somewhat worse than they did last year even though they have him.

and again, not that this was the point i was trying to make, but Horry (who Pose is often compared to) does have 7 rings....

[cordobes]

winsomme, while I understand the comparison between LRMAM and Posey (hard-nosed, defensive minded players who are very versatile), I don't think they're extremely similar players (even comparing LRMAM with Denver's Posey). Mbah a Moute is a better individual defender, but not nearly as good as a help defender or an enforcer as Posey; he's also a way better rebounder than James; Posey became a great spot up shooter while LRMAM is a streaky one without any kind of range.

I think we need size at the wings, so of course I'd welcome LRMAM, but his lack of a ranged jumper would frequently make him an offensive liability on the C's squad. Anyway, he'd certainly be getting some minutes here, saying otherwise is just bizarre.

[winsomme]

winsomme, while I understand the comparison between LRMAM and Posey (hard-nosed, defensive minded players who are very versatile), I don't think they're extremely similar players (even comparing LRMAM with Denver's Posey). Mbah a Moute is a better individual defender, but not nearly as good as a help defender or an enforcer as Posey; he's also a way better rebounder than James; Posey became a great spot up shooter while LRMAM is a streaky one without any kind of range.

I think we need size at the wings, so of course I'd welcome LRMAM, but his lack of a ranged jumper would frequently make him an offensive liability on the C's squad. Anyway, he'd certainly be getting some minutes here, saying otherwise is just bizarre.

I think they are a pretty decent comparison, but i also agree with your general assessment.....Pose is an infinitely better outside shooter (MBM barely even takes those shots at this point) and MBM is, I agree, a more natural rebounder.

not a perfect comparison for sure, but not totally dissimilar.

MBM is just a rookie too so he could add a shot a la Bowen...who knows.

to be honest, I'm not even sure what exactly you and BFB were really debating at its core. personally, I like both Giddens and MBM....and Walker for that matter...

but would also love to have a 3/4 guy to give some different looks...

[guava_wrench]

you gotta admit BFB, that whether or not MBM will ever be a starting wing isn't the only important question to ask in regards to his value....

on this Cs team without Pose he could be a nice component to two more Title runs with the BIg 3...especially without Pose and few options to get in other players...

  This may surprise you but I've been watching the NBA for years and I've seen a lot of teams win titles without Posey, or even a nearly exact replica of Posey, on their rosters. It can be done, and it will be done this year unless you see the Hornets lapping the field. We're playing about as well as we did last year without Posey and they're playing somewhat worse than they did last year even though they have him.

If we win it all, we will say "great job Danny not getting forced into signing Posey for 4 years when we can win without him".

If we lose, we will say "why didn't they give Posey the 4th year?"

If Posey stayed and we won, we would have said "good thing we resigned Posey, even if the contract is too long".

If Posey stayed and we lost, we would have said "we lost, and now we are stuck overpaying Posey for three more years!"

Watching NO, Posey seems more valuable to them anyway. They seem to do so much more with him, even posting him up.

[CoachBo]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

The mission now has to be to plug the holes in the bench for another title run. If it's anything else, then even I overestimate the competence of this front office.

The reason it is true and you're certain it isn't is because you are using opinion as fact when assuming Ainge was "throwing away" 2009 for the future.

We all understand you are convinced that this team cannot repeat as built - something that isn't the world's riskiest statement since repeating is a low percentage probability for any team having to go through Clev/Orl/LA/SA...

The draft is the LIFE BLOOD of a franchise when it comes to potentially getting a high caliber player for virtually no money and then having control over their future.

Free Agency is the most expensive way to address needs and can cripple a franchise if the money is spent unwisely. I am positive that Ainge's decison not to overspend for the players he made offers to is indicative of how he values future FA markets as well as his belief that he could add waiver wire vets and would also see his current team grow and improve themselves.

You are treating the FA market of this past off-season as if it was the only way to solidify another title for this season and that Ainge "screwed up" because he didn't add anyone for any monetary denomination.

Beside the fact that the team has 37 more games to go and is 1 loss out of having the best record in the NBA - the team is still hunting for vets to fill limited roles and has kept flexibility in place to grow some younger players into key roles while leaving the option open to pursue more substantial FA in the following 2-3 FA markets -- all of which are in the window for this team.

Ainge didn't "give up" this season, he took a calculated risk that he could address the very limited holes this team has during the regular season. I fully expect Ainge to make some qulaity offers to some big time vets this coming off-season - probably 2 or 3 MLE worthy players in this years crop at the right amount of years.

I'm aware - from past boards I've left for their lack of quality basketball discussion, Eric - that you believe Ainge to be an unparalleled basketball oracle. Fine. I don't, and I frankly view the above post as a collection of excuses for a terrible off-season.

Your above post is predicated on the same fallacies that led you and others to fall in love with the worst collection of Celtics talent in history - that a team can be rebuilt from the bottom picks in each round of the draft. It cannot, and Ainge has already proven that conclusively. His rebuilding plan failed miserably on the floor. Thank God for the fire sales in Minny and Seattle.

This team has definitive skillset gaps on the bench, some that could have been filled for the NBA equivalent of pocket change. I don't find two long-term reaches in the draft anything remotely approximating an appropriate answer for those weaknesses. Further, I suspect that they're picks made by a GM who thought he was set for 08-09, not part of a great "Danny's master plan," which is one of the enduring canards of every Celtics message board I've ever been on.

I'll say it again: If the priority this past off-season and right now is ANYTHING besides winning the 18th banner, then even I overestimate the intelligence of Ainge and Wyc.

[winsomme]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

The mission now has to be to plug the holes in the bench for another title run. If it's anything else, then even I overestimate the competence of this front office.

The reason it is true and you're certain it isn't is because you are using opinion as fact when assuming Ainge was "throwing away" 2009 for the future.

We all understand you are convinced that this team cannot repeat as built - something that isn't the world's riskiest statement since repeating is a low percentage probability for any team having to go through Clev/Orl/LA/SA...

The draft is the LIFE BLOOD of a franchise when it comes to potentially getting a high caliber player for virtually no money and then having control over their future.

Free Agency is the most expensive way to address needs and can cripple a franchise if the money is spent unwisely. I am positive that Ainge's decison not to overspend for the players he made offers to is indicative of how he values future FA markets as well as his belief that he could add waiver wire vets and would also see his current team grow and improve themselves.

You are treating the FA market of this past off-season as if it was the only way to solidify another title for this season and that Ainge "screwed up" because he didn't add anyone for any monetary denomination.

Beside the fact that the team has 37 more games to go and is 1 loss out of having the best record in the NBA - the team is still hunting for vets to fill limited roles and has kept flexibility in place to grow some younger players into key roles while leaving the option open to pursue more substantial FA in the following 2-3 FA markets -- all of which are in the window for this team.

Ainge didn't "give up" this season, he took a calculated risk that he could address the very limited holes this team has during the regular season. I fully expect Ainge to make some qulaity offers to some big time vets this coming off-season - probably 2 or 3 MLE worthy players in this years crop at the right amount of years.

I'm aware - from past boards I've left for their lack of quality basketball discussion, Eric - that you believe Ainge to be an unparalleled basketball oracle. Fine. I don't, and I frankly view the above post as a collection of excuses for a terrible off-season.

Your above post is predicated on the same fallacies that led you and others to fall in love with the worst collection of Celtics talent in history - that a team can be rebuilt from the bottom picks in each round of the draft. It cannot, and Ainge has already proven that conclusively. His rebuilding plan failed miserably on the floor. Thank God for the fire sales in Minny and Seattle.

This team has definitive skillset gaps on the bench, some that could have been filled for the NBA equivalent of pocket change. I don't find two long-term reaches in the draft anything remotely approximating an appropriate answer for those weaknesses. Further, I suspect that they're picks made by a GM who thought he was set for 08-09, not part of a great "Danny's master plan," which is one of the enduring canards of every Celtics message board I've ever been on.

I'll say it again: If the priority this past off-season and right now is ANYTHING besides winning the 18th banner, then even I overestimate the intelligence of Ainge and Wyc.

I'd say Minny is pretty happy with Big Al, Gomes, Telfair and getting that pick back (was that the Love pick or is it this year's?). Big Al clearly is a stud.

What better deal would they have gotten out there?

I remember all the talk of "if the Bulls would have given up Deng" or "Dallas would have given up Josh Howard" we would be left in the dust....

[winsomme]

I'll say it again: If the priority this past off-season and right now is ANYTHING besides winning the 18th banner, then even I overestimate the intelligence of Ainge and Wyc.

CB, I'm sure you saw with the rest of us that interview with Wyc. I don't know of  a more convincing way to highlight the front office's priority than the owner saying that moves will be made if needed...

[libermaniac]

I just wish Ainge would hurry up and send Giddens and Walker back to the D-league so we can follow their games again, because it's pretty obvious Doc isn't gonna play them - especially Giddens.