Surprising Ainge didn't take either Chalmers or Jordan with the 30th pick...

[CoachBo]

Considering the mistakes Ainge made putting this bench together this summer - and Giddens' checkered past - I defintely prefer MBM. And it's not even close. This team needs a defender at the 3 or 4 off the bench to win a title - and that's the focus. We're trying to win a title, not to accumulate a bunch of pieces for another summer of fire sales.

As for Walker, he has potential. His game is extremely immature, especially at the defensive end, but he will grow. He remains, IMHO, the only good move Ainge made this summer.

[CoachBo]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

for this Cs team or just overall?

what is your sample for Giddens?

i gotta say, i have been reading about how little value our rook's have, but that is essentially based on their lack of PT, IMO.

i'd be willing to wager that Walker is actually watched pretty closely by scouts. you can just feel his explosiveness. it's very tangible even in limited minutes.

For this team and this drive for a title, first of all. Out here in Big 12 country, there's zero question in my mind Walker was the better of the two picks. Given the immaturity of Walker personally and of his game, I have serious doubts he will help the club this year - but he will eventually.

Just don't see Giddens as a "home run" draft pick. Streak shooter, spotty defender, clearly behind Walker in Doc's mind already. His game isn't so incredibly unique that it cannot be duplicated down the road.

Frankly, I'm not that worried about either one of them. The focus of this front office has to be maximizing the title opportunities during the Garnett-Allen-Pierce window. Great job doing that in 2007, lousy job in 2008. MBM fills at least one of the skillsets that Ainge outsmarted himself out of this summer.

If we're stripping down the bench in the summer of 08 while drafting for five years down the road, then there are clearly more questions that need to be raised about the front office.

[winsomme]

Considering the mistakes Ainge made putting this bench together this summer - and Giddens' checkered past - I defintely prefer MBM. And it's not even close. This team needs a defender at the 3 or 4 off the bench to win a title - and that's the focus. We're trying to win a title, not to accumulate a bunch of pieces for another summer of fire sales.

As for Walker, he has potential. His game is extremely immature, especially at the defensive end, but he will grow. He remains, IMHO, the only good move Ainge made this summer.

from a need standpoint i agree with you about MBM and Giddens....but from an overall ability standpoint i would have to give that head to head comparison a huge TBC.

all we really know about Giddens at this point is that he played well in his time in the DL. that certainly doesn't hurt him in a comparison against MBM...

i don't see how anyone can make a substantive comparison of the two at this point because JR just doesn't have a sample to compare...

now for the Cs....i agree i would love to have MBM on our roster right now...but those are actually two separate questions from my perspective.

[winsomme]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

for this Cs team or just overall?

what is your sample for Giddens?

i gotta say, i have been reading about how little value our rook's have, but that is essentially based on their lack of PT, IMO.

i'd be willing to wager that Walker is actually watched pretty closely by scouts. you can just feel his explosiveness. it's very tangible even in limited minutes.

For this team and this drive for a title, first of all. Out here in Big 12 country, there's zero question in my mind Walker was the better of the two picks. Given the immaturity of Walker personally and of his game, I have serious doubts he will help the club this year - but he will eventually.

Just don't see Giddens as a "home run" draft pick. Streak shooter, spotty defender, clearly behind Walker in Doc's mind already. His game isn't so incredibly unique that it cannot be duplicated down the road.

Frankly, I'm not that worried about either one of them. The focus of this front office has to be maximizing the title opportunities during the Garnett-Allen-Pierce window. Great job doing that in 2007, lousy job in 2008. MBM fills at least one of the skillsets that Ainge outsmarted himself out of this summer.

If we're stripping down the bench in the summer of 08 while drafting for five years down the road, then there are clearly more questions that need to be raised about the front office.

to be fair though, you are basing your opinion of JR based on his college career and MBM based on what he has done in the NBA....

if MBM was buried on the Lakers bench for example would you still be saying that he was clearly the better pick of the two?

[cordobes]

Guys, you are both very smart basketball people and you are quibbling over very little in total difference in what you are saying.

I'm not a smart basketball person. Also, I've said several times I liked almost every minute I watched from Giddens so far; that's not the question here.

But when I give an opinion on a player, it may be right or wrong (probably it's wrong), but it's based on something I watched and thought about. I'm not going to attribute traits to a player I never watched - at most, my eyes play tricks with me and I see stuff that simply isn't there (or I don't see stuff that is there).  Now, when someone says that player X is used to switch on picks and I've watched like 30 games of that same team and they almost never switch on picks, I know that the opinions of that person are not to be taken seriously. Ditto for supposedly having inside sources and going to another forum and making questions about that situation to the fans of the team. Or that the 7th defence in terms of def. eff. in the league "sux". Etc, etc.

Hopefully Giddens becomes better than LRMAM, it's not really that hard to imagine (although I'll never understand why would anyone trade a player who's already so good - better rebounder, passer, etc - and with such a high ceiling for a draft pick); and all I asked was "why so?". But to simply distort facts to argue this point of view is just plain wrong.

[CoachBo]

Don't really see the NBDL as any sort of a legitimate predictor of NBA results.

Paddy O'Bust did relatively well down there, and we're seeing how that works out.

It's possible that Ainge got a useful piece for the post-Big Three era in Walker. I have my doubts about Giddens, having seen him a bunch in college.

Five years down the road's not my priority, while Garnett, Pierce and Allen are chasing a title. And I question whether it should be anyone's. Ergo, I'd happily pass on Giddens and take MBM right now. There's just no logic in throwing 2009 under the bus for a longshot in 2012.

We'll have shots at wings like Giddens in coming drafts. And defenders at the 3 and 4 have value in the open market.

[winsomme]

Don't really see the NBDL as any sort of a legitimate predictor of NBA results.

Paddy O'Bust did relatively well down there, and we're seeing how that works out.

It's possible that Ainge got a useful piece for the post-Big Three era in Walker. I have my doubts about Giddens, having seen him a bunch in college.

Five years down the road's not my priority, while Garnett, Pierce and Allen are chasing a title. And I question whether it should be anyone's. Ergo, I'd happily pass on Giddens and take MBM right now.

We'll have shots at wings like Giddens in coming drafts. And defenders at the 3 and 4 have value in the open market.

like i mentioned earlier in this thread, this season has made me acutely aware of the value of a defensive-minded 3/4. they are in shockingly short supply. so on that particular point i'm with you...

but your insistence that Danny made a mistake on not taking MBM feels a little like cheating based on the fact that he is on a team where he actually is getting PT and played well.

i go back to my question posed in the last post:

if MBM was buried on the bench of some other team, would you still be highlighting MBM as a player that you would take any day of the week?

[BillfromBoston]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

Yeah, good fiction, but it had nothing to do with impending free-agency; you'll see him playing more now that are more minutes available and he'll still be a free-agent by the end of the season. He just can't run an offence and is a sieve on defence. He's also a ball-hog, but I doubt I provided you that explanation.

I can't understand your explanation about the difference between the 2 and the 3. What's a "true 2"? What if no "true 2" is playing, are they playing with 2 3s? Weird stuff.

And I'm actually embarrassed to tell you this, but Skiles never switches on big/small screens, except on last possession plays. LRMAM takes 2guards as his defensive assignment when it pays and is needed. For example, he took Wade, Kobe or Nick Young when the Wizards guard was creaming Sessions and Redd on the first half.

ANyway, it's nice to see you recognizing that LRMAM would see minutes if he was in Boston. A few weeks ago there was no reason whatsoever to assume he'd be getting them. Oh well, I guess you've re-watched those games you were watching quite a bit once again.

Not fiction, but whatever...I could get a hold of Skiles and ask him about his defensive philosophy if I felt like it...that's truth...

Anyways, just watched every Dwayne Wade posession in the Mil/Mia game, (ya, i can do that.) Mbah Moute had him 2 out of 34 posession during an "all wing" lineup of Jefferson/Alexander/Mbah Moute...that's hardly a substantial endorsement for him playing the 2 - that coupled with his game log data that registers him at less than 1% playing the 2 as well as the other games i've watched him play a majority of his time at the 4 and 3 pretty much puts you in the "nice fiction" category.

Oh, and Skiles uses a good amount of zone when he's employing those lineups where everyone is the same size, but he definitely switches on picks about as much as any other team does - nobody uses the switch as the predominant choice on screens, but it happens - just watched it happen...

[CoachBo]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

The mission now has to be to plug the holes in the bench for another title run. If it's anything else, then even I overestimate the competence of this front office.

[winsomme]

I'm in no way suggesting that Danny made a mistake not taking MBM. What I'm saying is that retirement and the penny wise-pound foolishness of this summer created some definite skillset holes on this bench that should have been addressed this summer.

It's been suggested in this thread that Danny was reaching for post-Big Three by taking Giddens and Walker - a point that I think is giving Ainge more credit than he deserves.

If that's true - and I'm all but certain it isn't; Ainge isn't that stupid - then my point is pretty simple: Throwing a year of the Big Three's fairly small window under the bus to revert back to reaching in the draft for the future - hello, 18-64 redux - is just mindbogglingly stupid.

well the elephant in this debate is obviously Posey. If he did sign here, then this whole debate about JR and Walker changes...

and i actually think DA wanted and expected to get Pose back...maybe i am in the minority on that one. so in that light it makes those picks a lot more logical...

[BillfromBoston]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you CoachBo if you EVER, EVER showed any inclination to understanding how a professional organization balances long and short term decision making.

You are a coach so I undertand your inclination to maximize the "now" and leave the "later" for later. But in pro basketball you have to think multiple years ahead.

This team could use a veteran big and a veteran 3 with length and a veteran PG, sure - but a quality pro organization looks at the available options not only in the year they're in, but up to 5 years in the future.

Boston didn't spend beyond their initial offering point to any of the vets at these position - Joe Smith, Posey, Maggette, Lue, Barnes, Finley, Barry -- all these guys received interest from the team, they just didn't match what other teams spent for them.

Why? Because they aren't just playing for this year - they are factoring in the opportunity lost for spending on players like Rasheed Wallace this coming offseason, as well as eliminating a high upside guy like Walker's chance to grow into a role this season and next at the 3 while having higher upside than the available FA they could have spent for. Same applies for Pruitt.

Giddens was TA insurance and is TA's competition over the next year and a half. The team didn't commit multi-years or big bucks for players marginally better than waiver wire additions after making quality offers to their primary 2 wing veterans...

Is the team "weaker" because of it? Yes...but how much weaker relative to the strength they need to defend their title? You say its too weak and you also completely discount the factual chance of adding some short term vets to fill spots during the year - a strategy Ainge clearly went into the season with.

The coach in you is right about these immediate concerns, but this isn't high school or college - this is pro basketball, where guaranteed contracts and limited roster space forces teams to thing in multi-year blocks..

[BillfromBoston]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

for this Cs team or just overall?

what is your sample for Giddens?

i gotta say, i have been reading about how little value our rook's have, but that is essentially based on their lack of PT, IMO.

Another NBA truism...a team may not trade you much for an unproven guy, but they'll sure as hell track him and try and take him off your hands for nothing...

i'd be willing to wager that Walker is actually watched pretty closely by scouts. you can just feel his explosiveness. it's very tangible even in limited minutes.

[cordobes]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

Yeah, good fiction, but it had nothing to do with impending free-agency; you'll see him playing more now that are more minutes available and he'll still be a free-agent by the end of the season. He just can't run an offence and is a sieve on defence. He's also a ball-hog, but I doubt I provided you that explanation.

I can't understand your explanation about the difference between the 2 and the 3. What's a "true 2"? What if no "true 2" is playing, are they playing with 2 3s? Weird stuff.

And I'm actually embarrassed to tell you this, but Skiles never switches on big/small screens, except on last possession plays. LRMAM takes 2guards as his defensive assignment when it pays and is needed. For example, he took Wade, Kobe or Nick Young when the Wizards guard was creaming Sessions and Redd on the first half.

ANyway, it's nice to see you recognizing that LRMAM would see minutes if he was in Boston. A few weeks ago there was no reason whatsoever to assume he'd be getting them. Oh well, I guess you've re-watched those games you were watching quite a bit once again.

Not fiction, but whatever...I could get a hold of Skiles and ask him about his defensive philosophy if I felt like it...that's truth...

Anyways, just watched every Dwayne Wade posession in the Mil/Mia game, (ya, i can do that.) Mbah Moute had him 2 out of 34 posession during an "all wing" lineup of Jefferson/Alexander/Mbah Moute...that's hardly a substantial endorsement for him playing the 2 - that coupled with his game log data that registers him at less than 1% playing the 2 as well as the other games i've watched him play a majority of his time at the 4 and 3 pretty much puts you in the "nice fiction" category.

Oh, and Skiles uses a good amount of zone when he's employing those lineups where everyone is the same size, but he definitely switches on picks about as much as any other team does - nobody uses the switch as the predominant choice on screens, but it happens - just watched it happen...

I remember that game quite well - and I'll give it a look ASAP -, and I'd be surprised if Alexander played more than a couple of minutes - like 2 or 3 and because it was a blowout. IIRC, Bogut or Gadz were on the floor every second.

He doesn't play zones, he brings the weakside post defender to flood and leaves the naked wing "open".

[winsomme]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you CoachBo if you EVER, EVER showed any inclination to understanding how a professional organization balances long and short term decision making.

You are a coach so I undertand your inclination to maximize the "now" and leave the "later" for later. But in pro basketball you have to think multiple years ahead.

This team could use a veteran big and a veteran 3 with length and a veteran PG, sure - but a quality pro organization looks at the available options not only in the year they're in, but up to 5 years in the future.

Boston didn't spend beyond their initial offering point to any of the vets at these position - Joe Smith, Posey, Maggette, Lue, Barnes, Finley, Barry -- all these guys received interest from the team, they just didn't match what other teams spent for them.

Why? Because they aren't just playing for this year - they are factoring in the opportunity lost for spending on players like Rasheed Wallace this coming offseason, as well as eliminating a high upside guy like Walker's chance to grow into a role this season and next at the 3 while having higher upside than the available FA they could have spent for. Same applies for Pruitt.

Giddens was TA insurance and is TA's competition over the next year and a half. The team didn't commit multi-years or big bucks for players marginally better than waiver wire additions after making quality offers to their primary 2 wing veterans...

Is the team "weaker" because of it? Yes...but how much weaker relative to the strength they need to defend their title? You say its too weak and you also completely discount the factual chance of adding some short term vets to fill spots during the year - a strategy Ainge clearly went into the season with.

The coach in you is right about these immediate concerns, but this isn't high school or college - this is pro basketball, where guaranteed contracts and limited roster space forces teams to thing in multi-year blocks..

while i agree that Danny was thinking about 2010-2011 with Pose, i'm still not convinced that he wouldn't have gone to 4 years on Pose at the final hour...

just based on listening to Wyc the other night....the head honchos want another Title this year and would place "three years from now" a distance second to getting that done...

i think they were genuinely surprised that Pose got that 4 year deal in NO and never had a chance to match...

that's the only scenario that makes sense to me as far as Pose is concerned....I mean he was the only guy they targeted for that spot (other than Maggette who was never really going to take an MLE deal IMO)

[BillfromBoston]

Guys, you are both very smart basketball people and you are quibbling over very little in total difference in what you are saying.

I'm not a smart basketball person. Also, I've said several times I liked almost every minute I watched from Giddens so far; that's not the question here.

But when I give an opinion on a player, it may be right or wrong (probably it's wrong), but it's based on something I watched and thought about. I'm not going to attribute traits to a player I never watched - at most, my eyes play tricks with me and I see stuff that simply isn't there (or I don't see stuff that is there).  Now, when someone says that player X is used to switch on picks and I've watched like 30 games of that same team and they almost never switch on picks, I know that the opinions of that person are not to be taken seriously. Ditto for supposedly having inside sources and going to another forum and making questions about that situation to the fans of the team. Or that the 7th defence in terms of def. eff. in the league "sux". Etc, etc.

Hopefully Giddens becomes better than LRMAM, it's not really that hard to imagine (although I'll never understand why would anyone trade a player who's already so good - better rebounder, passer, etc - and with such a high ceiling for a draft pick); and all I asked was "why so?". But to simply distort facts to argue this point of view is just plain wrong.

Do you for a second think that because I say I have insider sources for information that I am in a position to arbitrarily call up said source and ask him abscure questions in order to satisfy an internet debate?

Truth of the matter is that if you are a Milwaukee Bucks fan and have watched 30 games of that team you probably are aware of some stuff i'm not - I watch all 30 teams and the top 25 NCAA teams, I don't have a great deal of time to focus all my attention on one.

However, I know Mbah Moute's game inside and out - I know what his strengths and weakneses are and have compiled statistical FACTS about his usage - I can also reference any game and watch it to review - like when you start talking about him being used as a 2 when he spends a majority of his time not playing the 2...

You can disregard everything I have said because i said he is good for switching on picks, which is true...but discounting my opinion on a player i've likely watched far longer than you and have far, far more resources to evaluate is simply foolish - but do what you want.

Mbah Moute is an off-ball 3/4 who will probably be moved full time to the 3 if he can improve his atrocious spot-up shooting game. He's got decent enough form, so I don't see why he can't do this.

But Mbah Moute will never be a starting wing player unless he finds some perfect situation where he can master 3 point shooting and be a team's Bruce Bowen.

Right now his highest probability of future role, based off his current skill set and usage is as a 3/4 defender who gets hustle points and inefficiently takes elbow jumpers...that's who he is, period...

...and Sessions is a potential FEATURE PG in training...his drop in PT had a lot more to do with things you are most certainly not seeing on the court. Like most young players, he has things to work on, but he didn't get his PT cut in half because of the reasons you stated - they are a small piece of the puzzle and something that this  team is more than willing to work through as long as it doesn't cost them franchise-caliber money to do so...

You don't believe this is from the horses mouth, that's your bad...