Surprising Ainge didn't take either Chalmers or Jordan with the 30th pick...

[cordobes]

Oh, anyway, I think that comparing him to Gomes is a respectable advance from comparing him to Leon Powe or Paul Millsap. It's still an amusing comparison, but it makes more sense.

Not every undersized PFs are born equal...

[winsomme]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

Yeps, I'm surely the only person in the world who thinks LRMAM is the better player. If Giddens is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker and has the ability to defend, it's insane how he isn't playing.

well to be fair, MBM is playing for a borderline team. If JR was in MIL, we could easily be talking about how great a draft pick he was by MIL because he was getting the playing time...

[cordobes]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

Yeps, I'm surely the only person in the world who thinks LRMAM is the better player. If Giddens is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker and has the ability to defend, it's insane how he isn't playing.

well to be fair, MBM is playing for a borderline team. If JR was in MIL, we could easily be talking about how great a draft pick he was by MIL because he was getting the playing time...

He's not just getting playing time. He's playing very well and he's the 2nd best defensive player for a decent defensive team (and the best when Bogut is out). Just his individual defense alone would guarantee him minutes in every team in the league.

[BillfromBoston]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only 3/4 who does everything a perimeter and frontcourt player does.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

[BillfromBoston]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

Yeps, I'm surely the only person in the world who thinks LRMAM is the better player. If Giddens is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker and has the ability to defend, it's insane how he isn't playing.

I guess one snide and careless comment deserves another - touche...but  you know [dang] well the difference in situation and roster construct plays a heavy part in this...

[winsomme]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

Yeps, I'm surely the only person in the world who thinks LRMAM is the better player. If Giddens is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker and has the ability to defend, it's insane how he isn't playing.

well to be fair, MBM is playing for a borderline team. If JR was in MIL, we could easily be talking about how great a draft pick he was by MIL because he was getting the playing time...

He's not just getting playing time. He's playing very well and he's the 2nd best defensive player for a decent defensive team (and the best when Bogut is out). Just his individual defense alone would guarantee him minutes in every team in the league.

my point is that JR would more likely be getting minutes on a team like MIL and could display all the tools BFB is saying he has....and did actually show in the D League...

[BillfromBoston]

Oh, anyway, I think that comparing him to Gomes is a respectable advance from comparing him to Leon Powe or Paul Millsap. It's still an amusing comparison, but it makes more sense.

Not every undersized PFs are born equal...

Up until this season when Powe became predominantly a post player and Millsap took over as a starter the three were very similar in terms of usage.

Millsap, Powe, and Mbah Moute all have historically been P&R, basket cut, and o-board players - over half of their half-court offense comes or has come off these three usage areas. They all receive the ball in the FT line extended spot up positon too, but only Mbah Moute takes the volume of shots out of this zone.

None of these three do very much ball-handling, ISO, or Post - except for Powe who has suddenly seen a shift to post ops...they are off-ball oportunists hanging out on the baseline, crashing the boards, and cutting to the basket from the weakside or off the pick -- that is how they are similar and was always the point of that initial comparison...

[winsomme]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

i just want to reiterate BFB that at least IMO what MBM does is actually insanely valuable on a championship caliber team like the Cs...

not flashy or All-Star garnering, but elements that are surprisingly scarce....just think about guys that were in the FA class year that actually could have replace Pose on this team....

[cordobes]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

Yeah, good fiction, but it had nothing to do with impending free-agency; you'll see him playing more now that are more minutes available and he'll still be a free-agent by the end of the season. He just can't run an offence and is a sieve on defence. He's also a ball-hog, but I doubt I provided you that explanation.

I can't understand your explanation about the difference between the 2 and the 3. What's a "true 2"? What if no "true 2" is playing, are they playing with 2 3s? Weird stuff.

And I'm actually embarrassed to tell you this, but Skiles never switches on big/small screens, except on last possession plays. LRMAM takes 2guards as his defensive assignment when it pays and is needed. For example, he took Wade, Kobe or Nick Young when the Wizards guard was creaming Sessions and Redd on the first half.

ANyway, it's nice to see you recognizing that LRMAM would see minutes if he was in Boston. A few weeks ago there was no reason whatsoever to assume he'd be getting them. Oh well, I guess you've re-watched those games you were watching quite a bit once again.

[winsomme]

Oh, anyway, I think that comparing him to Gomes is a respectable advance from comparing him to Leon Powe or Paul Millsap. It's still an amusing comparison, but it makes more sense.

Not every undersized PFs are born equal...

Up until this season when Powe became predominantly a post player and Millsap took over as a starter the three were very similar in terms of usage.

Millsap, Powe, and Mbah Moute all have historically been P&R and basket cut player - 60% of their offense comes or has come off these two usage areas. They all receive the ball in the FT line extended spot up positon too, but only Mbah Moute takes the volume of shots out of this zone.

None of these three do very much ball-handling, ISO, or Post - except for Powe who has suddenly seen a shift to post ops...they are off-ball oportunists hanging out on the baseline, crashing the boards, and cutting to the basket from the weakside or off the pick -- that is how they are similar and was always the point of that initial comparison...

i can't really see Powe or Milsap guarding three's...MBM i can.

[nickagneta]

Guys, you are both very smart basketball people and you are quibbling over very little in total difference in what you are saying.

Isn't it time to let go of the snide remarks and passive aggressive insinuations and just be cool.

[CoachBo]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

[winsomme]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

Yeah, good fiction, but it had nothing to do with impending free-agency; you'll see him playing more now that are more minutes available and he'll still be a free-agent by the end of the season. He just can't run an offence and is a sieve on defence. He's also a ball-hog, but I doubt I provided you that explanation.

I can't understand your explanation about the difference between the 2 and the 3. What's a "true 2"? What if no "true 2" is playing, are they playing with 2 3s? Weird stuff.

And I'm actually embarrassed to tell you this, but Skiles never switches on big/small screens, except on last possession plays. LRMAM takes 2guards as his defensive assignment when it pays and is needed. For example, he took Wade, Kobe or Nick Young when the Wizards guard was creaming Sessions and Redd on the first half.

ANyway, it's nice to see you recognizing that LRMAM would see minutes if he was in Boston. A few weeks ago there was no reason whatsoever to assume he'd be getting them. Oh well, I guess you've re-watched those games you were watching quite a bit once again.

cord, just to be middle-man here....as far as watching games goes, you must be starting to see the potency of Walker's game.

i think BFB is right...if he can make decent progress, he could definitely play some key minutes for us (at least in the regular season).

the thing with MBM for me is that a 3/4 is actually a huge need for this Cs team...

[BillfromBoston]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

I actually found out the real reason Sessions got his PT cut and it had little to do with your explanation that he was a ball-hog...I wish I could elaborate on the real reason, but explaining it on a message board isn't worth compromising my sources - it is 99% to do with his impending free agency...

As for the 2 and the 3 in Skiles offense - it depends on the personnel on the court, but the distribution of shots is substantially different as most of Milwaukees true 2's do more ball-handling and 3 point shooting - Charlie V is the only one who does everything.

Defensively, Skiles likes to use Mbah Moute so he can switch on picks instead of risking the penetration - Mbah Moute is excellent for this to be sure. but he doesn't consistently take 2 guards as a principle assignment.

Mbah Moute crashes Glass, uses P&R, and cuts to the basket - how more complicated does it get?

i just want to reiterate BFB that at least IMO what MBM does is actually insanely valuable on a championship caliber team like the Cs...

not flashy or All-Star garnering, but elements that are surprisingly scarce....just think about guys that were in the FA class year that actually could have replace Pose on this team....

Never argued for a second that it wasnt' valuable...but considering the strength of our team i'd rather have Bill Walker and JR Giddens' potential home run impact down the road than Mbah Moute's current impact...personally i think Giddens and Walker will both be plus wing defenders, so i don't think we miss out on much as soon as they see the court...

[winsomme]

Gosh, I feel like I've been dragged, kicking and screaming, back to RealGM.

This forum really needs a popcorn emoticon.

 

Bottom line: I'd take MBM over Giddens any day of the year. MUCH better fit for what this team needs right now on the defensive end.

for this Cs team or just overall?

what is your sample for Giddens?

i gotta say, i have been reading about how little value our rook's have, but that is essentially based on their lack of PT, IMO.

i'd be willing to wager that Walker is actually watched pretty closely by scouts. you can just feel his explosiveness. it's very tangible even in limited minutes.