Surprising Ainge didn't take either Chalmers or Jordan with the 30th pick...

[nickagneta]

We had Pruitt and Eddit house mandating the pg backup roles so whats the point of getting chalmers?? Its like t'wolves have foye and mccants , so what is the point of getting a comparable(or possibly better) oj mayo to clog up sg spot?

Deandre Jordan made alot of sense but i guess they liked pob better and weren't sure about tony allen coming back(so they got giddens)

I still think giddens will prove us wrong as he gets a chance to play but with walker looking like he will excel, jordan would have been a dream project for the coaching staff and kg to work on.

hey at least we have semih erden =]

DeAndre Jordan makes a lot more sense than what? Giddens, Walker, or anyone else? For all we know Ainge had Jordan rated like a lot of other GMs and scouting teams and groups did, very low to out of the second round. As I said earlier in this thread, Jordan played limited minutes at A&M, only 20MPG. In that time his stats were onlt 7 PPG and 6 RPG while shooting 43% on his FTs. Annnnnnnnnnnd, he withered as the year went on. Many questioned his basketball IQ, his total ceiling on the offensive side, his drive, and his intensity.

So if after doing his extensive scouting, Danny and his scouting staff had Jordan way down on the list of top 60 players, why would it make any more sense to take Jordan over a guy he was obviously very high on in Giddens?

[twistedrico]

irrelevant.

[cordobes]

DeAndre Jordan is amazingly raw. He's very far from being able to contribute consistently in a good team, he makes way too many mistakes. Don't get too impressed with the numbers. Personally, I'd rather have Giddens than Jordan, although I agree the opposite case can be made.

[BballTim]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

  David Lee and Nate McMillan were #30 picks. There were probably more but I had to run out so I didn't check too many years.

[nickagneta]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

  David Lee and Nate McMillan were #30 picks. There were probably more but I had to run out so I didn't check too many years.

I actually went back about thirty years a while back looking to see who were the best number 30 picks ever and, unfortunately Lee and McMillan and Varejao are the three best picks at 30 ever. And unfortunately it isn't close. The rest is garbage.

[BillfromBoston]

I love the Walker pick and the jury is still out on Giddens, in my book. I've seen some footage from Utah Flash games he was in and the kid is an athlete with a game.

I swear, this is the last thing I expected to read in your post, lol. Good stuff.

I made a promise after a long convo with BillfromBoston, I think you and BBallTim. I've kept my promise and even have done a little homework. Kid looked solid in Utah in the stuff I saw. So, to me jury is still out and my promise of not bad mouthing him til I see more is intact. I'm a lot of things good and bad, but, I'm a man of my word.

Hat's off to you nick - a rare commitment from the constituents of this board, who typically just stand their ground without change...Giddens hasn't proven anything, but he was playing outstanding bball before the wrist injury and I wanna see him in game action on the big stage at some point...Walker is top priority right now - if he can get the team defense and offense down he could really contribute off the bench and give Pierce some rest...

[BillfromBoston]

Heh, lots of people wanted Chris Douglas-Roberts, to who I was frontally opposed; where are you now??

Chalmers I'd have liked and was rooting for him, but it's not like we missed a very big thing. Jordan I didn't like and while he's showing some nice tools, it's still to early to be sure he can make a NBA career.

In hindsight, the better pick with the 30th would have been Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. I knew it!

This statement entirely supposes that Ainge was looking to maximize his immediate return, which I don't think he was by evidence of his selections.

Ainge picked two players with superior athletic gifts to Mbah Moute, who has been solid, but remains a player who would have to become EXTREMELY skilled in order to match either Walker or Giddens upside.

At pick 30 and with the FA market in front of them, I don't think Ainge was looking to do anything more than take the players he felt had the best chance of being high-end steals while still having a solid chance to be at minimum rotation level players.

Mbah Moute is a Gomes type pick...Giddens was a home run type pick...there are years and years to go before we see the final outcome of this decision. I am sure that Mbah Moute would get less PT on this team than he does on Milwaukee, but he would have had a good chance to get some minutes at the 3.

I'm fully convinced you've never seen Mbah a Moute playing. The idea that Gomes could guard players like Kobe or Wade is laughable. The problem with Gomes is that he's a tweener, without a position, that isn't fast enough to defend the perimeter. LRMAM is already one of the bests perimeter defenders in the league.

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

[guava_wrench]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

What makes Giddens' ceiling higher? Cognitive dissonance. We are on Celticsblog.

[BillfromBoston]

TP, Cordobes. LRMBAM would be the PERFECT answer to the perimeter defense we've lost off the bench.

Not to mention a pick worthy of all the rationalized credit that Danny gets on this board for cooking up, uh, long-term picks.

I think "long-term" on this board is the same thing as pick and pray.

What are you talking about?

Do you have any notion of how successful Ainge's drafting has been against the average level of production of players taken at his draft spots?

Ainge's picks consistently out-perform the norms for the draft slot and are rarely outperformed by any other players selected afterward.

Marcus Banks and Gerald Green stand as his two major misses and both come with serious caveats attached - Banks was selected after Ainge had about 2 months on the job and Green was projected top 10 all the way up until he refused workouts for any team, so when Ainge lost out on Granger by one pick he went with a kid he hadn't scouted.

Jefferson, Rondo, Perkins, Gomes, West, and Powe have all produced exceptionally relative to draft position while TA, Davis, Pruitt, Walker, and Giddens don't have long enough track records to place valuation, there have been encouraging early returns...

Just because the Csblog hype patrol over-does it doesn't mean the man's drafting is overratted - he's probably the best executive when it comes to drafting - Ainge, Dumars, O'Connor are probably the three best...

[BillfromBoston]

Heh, lots of people wanted Chris Douglas-Roberts, to who I was frontally opposed; where are you now??

Chalmers I'd have liked and was rooting for him, but it's not like we missed a very big thing. Jordan I didn't like and while he's showing some nice tools, it's still to early to be sure he can make a NBA career.

In hindsight, the better pick with the 30th would have been Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. I knew it!

This statement entirely supposes that Ainge was looking to maximize his immediate return, which I don't think he was by evidence of his selections.

Ainge picked two players with superior athletic gifts to Mbah Moute, who has been solid, but remains a player who would have to become EXTREMELY skilled in order to match either Walker or Giddens upside.

At pick 30 and with the FA market in front of them, I don't think Ainge was looking to do anything more than take the players he felt had the best chance of being high-end steals while still having a solid chance to be at minimum rotation level players.

Mbah Moute is a Gomes type pick...Giddens was a home run type pick...there are years and years to go before we see the final outcome of this decision. I am sure that Mbah Moute would get less PT on this team than he does on Milwaukee, but he would have had a good chance to get some minutes at the 3.

I'm fully convinced you've never seen Mbah a Moute playing. The idea that Gomes could guard players like Kobe or Wade is laughable. The problem with Gomes is that he's a tweener, without a position, that isn't fast enough to defend the perimeter. LRMAM is already one of the bests perimeter defenders in the league.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what the comparison between Gomes and Mbah was about.

He did, but he likes to pretend that i've never watched him because of the way I describe him as a 3/4 tweener, which he is...I compared him to other tweeners in terms of usage - which is 100 percent accurate - since his 3 main usage areas are spot-up, P&R, and basket cuts...he tried to tell me he was a 3/2 pure wing which flies in the face of how the team has used him primarily as a 3/4 with more minutes at the 5 than at the 2...

[BillfromBoston]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

George Hill is going to be nice - he's got a steep learning curve coming from Div II in college, but he's shown he belongs.

I would say that both Gomes and Mbah Moute have "upside" in terms of them learning how to apply what they do well to the game in addition to refining things like their jump shot and working on ball-handling etc...

[BillfromBoston]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

One player is getting to apply his skills to a sub-.500 team with no depth and the other is taking a backseat on a championship team loaded at his position.

Giddens was consistently rated higher on most team's draft boards unless he had been completely ruled out due to "character concerns."

Giddens got first round consideration from at least 4 teams I know of, but once Arthur and Greene started sliding all types of things transpired.

Mbah Moute was always considered a 2nd round pick and many teams didn't have him on the draft board at all...good for Milwaukee for IDing him as a quality selection, but until Giddens gets his shot at PT or is out of the league, I'll firmly believe that Giddens is the superior talent - and i'm not alone...

[cordobes]

Yea, BfB was saying that LRMAM was similar to Gomes because they were NBA ready and were pretty much going to be the same player for the majority of their careers. Their rookie season is basically almost at their ceiling already.

You definitely can't say the same for Giddens or Walker. Danny knew this team was going to be a contender this year, and Mbah a Moute wasn't going to push the team over the top. I agree with what Bill from Boston was saying exactly. Once George Hill was off the board, Danny wanted to find another Rondo type steal that could become a legitimate star player. I'd say Walker has a higher chance of being this, but I like JR a lot, too.

Really? What gives JR Giddens such a much bigger ceiling than LRMAM? Giddens is older and had a longer college career. If JR Giddens becomes as good in the future as LRMAM is now, he'll be one of the best 30th picks ever - like in the history of the league.

Giddens is a superior athlete in every way to Mbah Moute is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker...his man defense is cable of playing the 1/2/3 on the NBA level based of latteral movement, length and his overall defensive intensity.

Mbah Moute has a very good future in front of him as a defensive specialist who can hit the set shot and clean up off ball in motion offense, but he was less accomplished in college from an individual standpoint and tests out below Giddens in every physical category.

This isn't a case of athlete vs. basketball player - Giddens is a basketball player and an athlete...his head is the biggest question mark, not his ability...except for to you apparently...

Yeps, I'm surely the only person in the world who thinks LRMAM is the better player. If Giddens is a comparable rebounder, superior passer, superior shooter, shot-blocker and has the ability to defend, it's insane how he isn't playing.

[cordobes]

You're really starting to annoy me Cordobes, I wasn't comparing their games I was comparing their impact and upside - both are role players with little chance to be more - Giddens and Walker have higher upside potential than either...I've seen Mbah Moute probably 12 times this season and pretty much 50% of his college games.

Mbah Moute's stock was its highest as a freshmen in college becuase he was an off-ball hustle guy who defended and rebounded. He hurt himself by going away from his strengths and working on becoming a scorer.

I think he is a fundamentally sound defender, though I don't keep a running list of the top 10 wing defenders in my head. He needs more help on that team before you can fully gauge his defensive potential because he doesn't have great interior support when at the 3 and he isn't a true 4...his minutes at the 2 are extremely limited - he's a 3/4 where Gomes started as a 4/3 - they are both tweeners...

Keep telling me I haven't watched him all you want - your opinion of him is different than mine I guess...Mbah Moute is a P&R and basket cut player who is trying to develop a jumper in order to solidify and offensive role - he's never going to be an ISO or a Post guy he's a catch-and-shoot/kick-out player who can attack off one or two dribbles when within 15 feet...I don't see what i'm missing here...I like his energy and endorsed the Milwaukee pick even though he could have slipped out of the draft entirely...

...but he doesn't have Giddens or Walker's high end potential...

The reason I said you don't watch him playing is because you asked why was Sessions seeing his minutes diminished when that was pretty evident to everyone actually watching the games. If you indeed watch the games and didn't understand why was he losing minutes, I don't know what to say.

By the way, can you quickly explain the difference between the 2 and the 3 on Skiles motion offence?

[winsomme]

Heh, lots of people wanted Chris Douglas-Roberts, to who I was frontally opposed; where are you now??

Chalmers I'd have liked and was rooting for him, but it's not like we missed a very big thing. Jordan I didn't like and while he's showing some nice tools, it's still to early to be sure he can make a NBA career.

In hindsight, the better pick with the 30th would have been Luc Richard Mbah a Moute. I knew it!

This statement entirely supposes that Ainge was looking to maximize his immediate return, which I don't think he was by evidence of his selections.

Ainge picked two players with superior athletic gifts to Mbah Moute, who has been solid, but remains a player who would have to become EXTREMELY skilled in order to match either Walker or Giddens upside.

At pick 30 and with the FA market in front of them, I don't think Ainge was looking to do anything more than take the players he felt had the best chance of being high-end steals while still having a solid chance to be at minimum rotation level players.

Mbah Moute is a Gomes type pick...Giddens was a home run type pick...there are years and years to go before we see the final outcome of this decision. I am sure that Mbah Moute would get less PT on this team than he does on Milwaukee, but he would have had a good chance to get some minutes at the 3.

I'm fully convinced you've never seen Mbah a Moute playing. The idea that Gomes could guard players like Kobe or Wade is laughable. The problem with Gomes is that he's a tweener, without a position, that isn't fast enough to defend the perimeter. LRMAM is already one of the bests perimeter defenders in the league.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you misunderstood what the comparison between Gomes and Mbah was about.

He did, but he likes to pretend that i've never watched him because of the way I describe him as a 3/4 tweener, which he is...I compared him to other tweeners in terms of usage - which is 100 percent accurate - since his 3 main usage areas are spot-up, P&R, and basket cuts...he tried to tell me he was a 3/2 pure wing which flies in the face of how the team has used him primarily as a 3/4 with more minutes at the 5 than at the 2...

i basically agree with what you are saying about upside in regards to these players, but i think one thing i have become acutely aware of this season is that players that can actually move between the 3 and the 4 (traditionally labeled in a non-flattering light as "tweeners") and play solid defense are extremely valuable to a ball club like the Cs...

i am very excited to see how Walker and JR develop, but MBM would really have been nice to have with the loss of Pose...

"value," in certain respects, is relative.