Author Topic: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play  (Read 20785 times)

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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2009, 10:32:18 AM »

Offline winsomme

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The problem is, even there's a reason for why they're not playing it doesn't mean that they wouldn't produce or play better than the ones that have a reason to be playing.

The assumption you guys are making that X player is not playing because he's not better than Y player is incredibly flawed. I think you've stated as much as it regards Ainge before nick... they're human. Even if there are justifying reasons for why certain players are playing instead of others, it doesn't mean what you guys are assuming is the case with these players, especially when you guys know that Doc hugely favors veterans for better or worse.

Too often around the league is the better player not playing because of X reason. No need to start assuming reasons as to why things happen the way they do. You're merely providing a plausible explanation... not the facts of things or the real explanation of things as you guys are apparently leading us to believe. Just as it's also true that there are people that excel in practices while others excel in games. I'm quite positive that Doc is missing that on the latter as it comes to rookies.
Our reasoning is flawed but the facts of things are that the coach should do the things you suggest because his eyes might be fooling him or because what he has discovered has worked in his system could be wrong. So let's test out these players even though it goes against everything his instincts and years and years of professional experience is telling him. Let's test these players because they might get in right in games even though they aren't getting it right in practice or shoot arounds and other team sponsored work outs. Let's test these players with the possibility of costing this team games and possibly Doc's job because there's a possibility, no matter how slight, that everything his knowledge and experience is telling him could be wrong.

Is that what you are trying to say? Because I don't know if you know this or not but people in the tax bracket that Doc is in, aren't paid to be wishy washy and vacillate on decisions and continue to try new things every day if something didn't work the previous day. Things don't work that way in corporate America and believe it or not, NBA basketball is corporate America.

Could Doc be completely wrong? Sure. But considering that Danny is the one that sent Walker and Giddens to the NBDL, obviously he feels Doc's decision not to play them is valid. And you have said it yourself, POB was supposed to be a project. Projects are developed in game atmospheres on BAD TEAMS, not on world championship caliber teams. Those projects are developed in practice and integrated in when they have earned that right and have shown the consistency of doing right over and over again so that the coach can use that player properly with the objective to win games. We are no longer the 22-60 Celtics. The objective is not to develop players, it's to win games.

I am sorry but I'll trust Doc's moves on this one because from what I saw in preseason and during this year, POB, Walker and Giddens are not the caliber of players I want on the floor defending the title.

this was similar to the reasoning behind many thinking we would not win last year with such a young inexperienced PG in Rondo. but sometimes players rise to occasion.

plus, a player not being ready to contribute is not a static situation. just because Walker and Giddens are rookies and looked uncomfortable in preseason doesn't mean that they will remain that way. and just because Doc didn't feel comfortable playing them early in the season doesn't mean that he will remain feeling that way.

Giddens and Walker have been playing and working on their games and considering how thin we are on the wing, i don't really see the down side of giving at least one of them some PT.

hey, look at how poor Cassel looked in pre-season for the Pats....sometimes the big stage brings something out in a guy....

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2009, 10:48:06 AM »

Offline winsomme

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Powe and BBD were inexperienced players that made pretty significant contributions to last years team as well...

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2009, 10:52:08 AM »

Offline ManUp

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Sure TA is one of the more athletic guys on this team even after injury. He is more athletic than POB, BBD, Powe, Scal, Sam, House, Perk, Giddens, PP...

For clarification the athletic freak I was referring to was Walker. TA USED to be an athletic freak, but now he is just on the upper end of the guys out there. That's why he is a solid defender.

Giddens is an athletic freak.

Actually Giddens might be more athletic than TA pre-injury...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD58bsFoSGo&feature=related
...by a pretty good margin. I think Powe, and Tony are at the same level athletically, right now.




Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2009, 12:17:18 PM »

Offline RmbrRuss

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1) Does anyone remember the history of Mr Rivers? not discovering Gomes when Gomes was the all-time scoring leader at Prov College?  I am not making an argument that Gomes is LeBron James. I argue that Rivers can't see what is front of him.

2) I am a proponent of the attrition theory of basketball. Six very hard
fouls by Big Baby vs Le Bron and LeBron's  less likely to make that crazy scoop shot in quarter 4. Nobody believes Perkins is out there because he's a finesse player.

3) Is it better to run a substitute horse with fresh legs or run worn out or injured ones risking permanent injury? Out of breath vs fresh? Which?  Out of breath hasn't a prayer. Need I repeat the ages of Garnett, R.Allen and Pierce?

4) See last..LeBron v Pierce. Pierce was pathetic...your NBA finals MVP
7 mos ago. Is he injured? He ain't gonna heal playing 35 minutes a game.
I saw three passes by Pierce that put him below D league. He's  never been that tough. Check him out when they're not calling so many fouls. The foul calling in last year's finals was lop-sided. Many ,many many noticed. I digree.

5) Inexperienced guys?  The draft represents the world at that moment entering the NBA.  Ainge said Giddens, top 30 in the world (assesing OUR NEEDS). Put your mouth where your money is baby!  These guys have been playing ball since they were babies!
Inexperienced?! Or is someone's  system too complicated?  A poor teacher? Auerbach was quoted," Get a forearm into his chest, your ass against his..and don't let him get the ball!" It was only good for 7 or so championships.

6) And Pruitt ought to be playing as well.

7) Different opponents have different strenghts. One can mix one's  starters to match them.

8) Panic?  Heck no, it's clearer than that. Either we find 2 helpful players somewhere or this team will be ground to paste. It's  kind of sad because these players deserve better from management. 

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2009, 12:28:10 PM »

Offline Chris

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1) Does anyone remember the history of Mr Rivers? not discovering Gomes when Gomes was the all-time scoring leader at Prov College?  I am not making an argument that Gomes is LeBron James. I argue that Rivers can't see what is front of him.

And I would argue that he saw exactly what Gomes was when he was given 4 games in the rotation very early in the season, and he looked completely lost...like a rookie who wasn't ready.

Quote
2) I am a proponent of the attrition theory of basketball. Six very hard
fouls by Big Baby vs Le Bron and LeBron's  less likely to make that crazy scoop shot in quarter 4. Nobody believes Perkins is out there because he's a finesse player.

You haven't been watching much of Lebron this year.  Big Baby is not slowing him down. 

Quote
3) Is it better to run a substitute horse with fresh legs or run worn out or injured ones risking permanent injury? Out of breath vs fresh? Which?  Out of breath hasn't a prayer. Need I repeat the ages of Garnett, R.Allen and Pierce?

OK, this one I agree with completely.
Quote
4) See last..LeBron v Pierce. Pierce was pathetic...your NBA finals MVP
7 mos ago. Is he injured? He ain't gonna heal playing 35 minutes a game.
I saw three passes by Pierce that put him below D league. He's  never been that tough. Check him out when they're not calling so many fouls. The foul calling in last year's finals was lop-sided. Many ,many many noticed. I digree.

I agree that Pierce looked tired, injured and frustrated.  But Pierce always been tough. 

Quote
5) Inexperienced guys?  The draft represents the world at that moment entering the NBA.  Ainge said Giddens, top 30 in the world (assesing OUR NEEDS). Put your mouth where your money is baby!  These guys have been playing ball since they were babies!
Inexperienced?! Or is someone's  system too complicated?  A poor teacher? Auerbach was quoted," Get a forearm into his chest, your ass against his..and don't let him get the ball!" It was only good for 7 or so championships.

Are you seriously blaming the coaches, for the fact that Gidden's hadn't picked up the defensive system yet?  The system isn't that complicated, but it requires lots of concentration, because it is only effective if every player is executing perfectly.

Quote
6) And Pruitt ought to be playing as well.

Agree with this one.  Although he still worries me with his tentativeness...but he can't be worse than House.

Quote
7) Different opponents have different strenghts. One can mix one's  starters to match them.

I don't know if I am misunderstanding or not.  Do you mean change the starting lineup (in which case I disagree strongly), or just mix in the starters better with the second unit during the game (this I agree with)?

Quote
8 ) Panic?  Heck no, it's clearer than that. Either we find 2 helpful players somewhere or this team will be ground to paste. It's  kind of sad because these players deserve better from management. 

This is fair...although I think one of the players may be sitting on the bench right now, playing coach.  He will be in the rotation sooner, rather than later.  They really need to find a wing though.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2009, 12:44:30 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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1) Does anyone remember the history of Mr Rivers? not discovering Gomes when Gomes was the all-time scoring leader at Prov College?  I am not making an argument that Gomes is LeBron James. I argue that Rivers can't see what is front of him.

2) I am a proponent of the attrition theory of basketball. Six very hard
fouls by Big Baby vs Le Bron and LeBron's  less likely to make that crazy scoop shot in quarter 4. Nobody believes Perkins is out there because he's a finesse player.

3) Is it better to run a substitute horse with fresh legs or run worn out or injured ones risking permanent injury? Out of breath vs fresh? Which?  Out of breath hasn't a prayer. Need I repeat the ages of Garnett, R.Allen and Pierce?

4) See last..LeBron v Pierce. Pierce was pathetic...your NBA finals MVP
7 mos ago. Is he injured? He ain't gonna heal playing 35 minutes a game.
I saw three passes by Pierce that put him below D league. He's  never been that tough. Check him out when they're not calling so many fouls. The foul calling in last year's finals was lop-sided. Many ,many many noticed. I digree.

5) Inexperienced guys?  The draft represents the world at that moment entering the NBA.  Ainge said Giddens, top 30 in the world (assesing OUR NEEDS). Put your mouth where your money is baby!  These guys have been playing ball since they were babies!
Inexperienced?! Or is someone's  system too complicated?  A poor teacher? Auerbach was quoted," Get a forearm into his chest, your ass against his..and don't let him get the ball!" It was only good for 7 or so championships.

6) And Pruitt ought to be playing as well.

7) Different opponents have different strenghts. One can mix one's  starters to match them.

8 ) Panic?  Heck no, it's clearer than that. Either we find 2 helpful players somewhere or this team will be ground to paste. It's  kind of sad because these players deserve better from management. 
How are the starters playing too many minutes when Garnett, Pierce and Allen are playing 0.1, 0.8, and 0.7 minutes more per game than they did last year? Heck at this time last year all three were playing more minutes per game than they are right now through the same number of games. These three are actually playing less now than they did last year, not more.

Remember that in April of last year Doc played the big three somewhere about 4-5 minutes per game less than their season average for the entire month and gave them a couple days off. That lowered their season average to where it was which is only seconds less than they are currently playing.

I agree that they are tired but I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of minutes played I think it has to do with the frantic early season schedule the league gave them and the fact that they might have done a bit more celebrating than training in the off season which was two months shorter than they were used to.

As for Rivers' history with young players you have to coach completely differently when you are a coach who's main goal is to develop players than when you are a coach who has to win a world title. Yes Rivers sat Rondo and Gomes and it appeared to the layman's eyes that he just didn't have a handle on their talent level or preferred vets. Or it could have been as young pros the coach felt certain lessons needed to be learned and so he sat them for internal reasons that we will never know.

There's so much that happens in the day to day running of this club that we never know about and yet we all, myself included jump to conclusions based solely on who is playing and who isn't. But does it occur to those that criticize Doc's handling of young players that he knows what he is doing and that his exact handling of them while not on the court is the reason they eventually do succeed when they hit the court?

His track record for developing talent is extraordinary and that's in both organizations he's been with. Al Jefferson, Kendrick Perkins, Rajon Rondo, Ryan Gomes, Leon Powe, Ben Wallace, Pat Garrity, Matt Harpring, Mike Miller, Drew Gooden, and Tracy McGrady are all young players that Doc coached very early in their careers that have been become good to great NBA players. Early career development is essential for players to go from unproven to productive grizzled vet and has succeeded in doing just that for many a youngster.

It's for those reasons that I put my trust in his decision making as to who should and should not make it on the floor on a nightly basis. I think more of us should trust his judgment. He did assist in getting us a championship after all and he is going no place fast.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2009, 12:49:07 PM »

Offline Cman

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Sure TA is one of the more athletic guys on this team even after injury. He is more athletic than POB, BBD, Powe, Scal, Sam, House, Perk, Giddens, PP...

For clarification the athletic freak I was referring to was Walker. TA USED to be an athletic freak, but now he is just on the upper end of the guys out there. That's why he is a solid defender.

Giddens is an athletic freak.

Actually Giddens might be more athletic than TA pre-injury...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD58bsFoSGo&feature=related
...by a pretty good margin. I think Powe, and Tony are at the same level athletically, right now.





cool video!  looked like he almost took his own arm off the stuff was so powerful...
Celtics fan for life.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2009, 12:49:14 PM »

Offline footey

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Tommy Point for you. I like your style, you tell it like you see it. You are not afraid to be contrarian. I also happen to agree with most of your points, and have posted a similar theme regarding doc's inability to experiment with his lineups.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2009, 12:56:47 PM »

Offline footey

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Nick, the big 3 are a year older. Even though their minutes are only slightly above last year's minutes, surely you are not suggesting that they look energetic and fresh.  They look tired, and even injured. KG has no where near the energy he had last year, or even earlier this year. It is a long season. It would be wise to significantly reduce the minutes of all 3, which would serve two important functions:

1. Give them rest so that they will be fresh come play-off time;
2. Give the others more playing time to learn the rotations better, and get more important game experience under their belts.

Win win.

The only disadvantage is that it might mean the difference between the 2nd and 3rd seed (I am going to concede the 1 seed to Cleveland at this point). Big deal. If we can't beat Orlando without homecourt advantage, then we are not good enough to repeat.

That is why Remember Russ's ideas resonate with me.  Good coaching requires imagination.  The path to the 18 will be different from the one to 17.


Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2009, 01:13:35 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Nick, the big 3 are a year older. Even though their minutes are only slightly above last year's minutes, surely you are not suggesting that they look energetic and fresh.  They look tired, and even injured. KG has no where near the energy he had last year, or even earlier this year. It is a long season. It would be wise to significantly reduce the minutes of all 3, which would serve two important functions:

1. Give them rest so that they will be fresh come play-off time;
2. Give the others more playing time to learn the rotations better, and get more important game experience under their belts.

Win win.

The only disadvantage is that it might mean the difference between the 2nd and 3rd seed (I am going to concede the 1 seed to Cleveland at this point). Big deal. If we can't beat Orlando without homecourt advantage, then we are not good enough to repeat.

That is why Remember Russ's ideas resonate with me.  Good coaching requires imagination.  The path to the 18 will be different from the one to 17.



I think your hearts in the right place footey, its always good to play the older guys less but its pretty unrealistic to expect thier minutes to go down much more than they are and be a competitive ball club.

we won't be getting a good seed playing the big 3 38-32 minutes a game, hate to break it to you. At some point, you have to play your talent. the bench can not pick up 14-16 minutes a night of each spots (SG,SF,PF) workload to give you the rest your sekign here and expect to win. It's just not feasable, for any NBA team, to baby starters THAT much.

Nick is correct, they are at about the minutes you expect the team to hedge them at the moment. The "doc is playign them to much this year, thats why thier tired!" is a knee jerk reaction that doesn't conform to reality once the numbers are broken down.
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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2009, 01:54:06 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Sure TA is one of the more athletic guys on this team even after injury. He is more athletic than POB, BBD, Powe, Scal, Sam, House, Perk, Giddens, PP...

For clarification the athletic freak I was referring to was Walker. TA USED to be an athletic freak, but now he is just on the upper end of the guys out there. That's why he is a solid defender.

Giddens is an athletic freak.

Actually Giddens might be more athletic than TA pre-injury...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD58bsFoSGo&feature=related
...by a pretty good margin. I think Powe, and Tony are at the same level athletically, right now.





Wow!  A 6'6" guy throwing a pass off the backboard and dunking it with one hand. That's the most athletic thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.... I had 6' tall buddies in school who could do that dunk. He was probably at his best right there athletically in his lifetime and his head was no where near the rim. He has long arms and so he could reach back to catch a bad pass off the glass... Not very impressive. Go look at Dunk contest highlights and then tell me that's something freakishly athletic.

Come on. I am not saying that ANY of these guys on our squad are terrible "un-athletic" (maybe Perk and Scal) , but there is no question that TA is ONE OF the more athletic guys. Walker is amazingly athletic as well. TA is no longer in that crazy level, but remember when he was a rookie and would come out of nowhere to throw down two fisted dunks with his head way up there at the rim... Back when we thought we had a star in the making. It is too bad that he blew those knees out. He still would have been dumb though.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2009, 02:09:19 PM »

Offline Chris

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Sure TA is one of the more athletic guys on this team even after injury. He is more athletic than POB, BBD, Powe, Scal, Sam, House, Perk, Giddens, PP...

For clarification the athletic freak I was referring to was Walker. TA USED to be an athletic freak, but now he is just on the upper end of the guys out there. That's why he is a solid defender.

Giddens is an athletic freak.

Actually Giddens might be more athletic than TA pre-injury...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD58bsFoSGo&feature=related
...by a pretty good margin. I think Powe, and Tony are at the same level athletically, right now.





Wow!  A 6'6" guy throwing a pass off the backboard and dunking it with one hand. That's the most athletic thing I have ever seen in my lifetime.... I had 6' tall buddies in school who could do that dunk. He was probably at his best right there athletically in his lifetime and his head was no where near the rim. He has long arms and so he could reach back to catch a bad pass off the glass... Not very impressive. Go look at Dunk contest highlights and then tell me that's something freakishly athletic.

Come on. I am not saying that ANY of these guys on our squad are terrible "un-athletic" (maybe Perk and Scal) , but there is no question that TA is ONE OF the more athletic guys. Walker is amazingly athletic as well. TA is no longer in that crazy level, but remember when he was a rookie and would come out of nowhere to throw down two fisted dunks with his head way up there at the rim... Back when we thought we had a star in the making. It is too bad that he blew those knees out. He still would have been dumb though.

Giddens was one of the best athletes in the draft last year, and I really don't think many scouts would argue with that.  I don't know why there is even a discussion about it.


Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2009, 02:16:43 PM »

Offline crownsy

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me neither, it was listed as one of his pluses.

"freakishly athletic for his size"

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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2009, 02:44:01 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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My whole comment was about TA, not Giddens. That was a whole tangent that he decided to go off on. I said I thought TA was more athletic than Giddens. Not sure why that is such a big stretch...

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2009, 02:55:14 PM »

Offline ManUp

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My whole comment was about TA, not Giddens. That was a whole tangent that he decided to go off on. I said I thought TA was more athletic than Giddens. Not sure why that is such a big stretch...

I don't know where exactly I "Went Off", but uhm okay.

I was just trying to fill you in because you seemed misinformed.

Giddens is some where between 6'4 and 6'5, and if you stop the clip at 21/22 seconds of the clip, I'd say he's just below eye level with the rim.

I don't know what more you  expect.