Author Topic: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play  (Read 20745 times)

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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2009, 07:31:46 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2009, 07:36:05 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2009, 07:46:46 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

I'm not asking for him to be in the rotation. But as long as TA is hurt, why not let Walker get some burn until the schedule calms down a bit. I'm a supporter of the theory that this team is tired and slow not because they're old or because they've lost their hunger but because their schedule hasn't slowed down enough for them to practice.

So my idea for bringing up Walker is less about him being a member of the rotation, but to provide a spark while the team is in the doldrums their in right now.

As far as Walker's intelligence goes, from all accounts out of Utah his defense has been strong and he's showing a wider skill set than imagined. He's shooting 40% from three, he's rebounding well and is showing himself to be an all around player.

In all honesty , I think he's going to be a huge part of this team going forward after the big 3 move on and I wouldn't mind seeing him get some burn now, if only to help energize the team for a week and a half.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2009, 09:01:59 PM »

Online JBcat

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

I'm not asking for him to be in the rotation. But as long as TA is hurt, why not let Walker get some burn until the schedule calms down a bit. I'm a supporter of the theory that this team is tired and slow not because they're old or because they've lost their hunger but because their schedule hasn't slowed down enough for them to practice.

So my idea for bringing up Walker is less about him being a member of the rotation, but to provide a spark while the team is in the doldrums their in right now.

As far as Walker's intelligence goes, from all accounts out of Utah his defense has been strong and he's showing a wider skill set than imagined. He's shooting 40% from three, he's rebounding well and is showing himself to be an all around player.

In all honesty , I think he's going to be a huge part of this team going forward after the big 3 move on and I wouldn't mind seeing him get some burn now, if only to help energize the team for a week and a half.

I agree.  This is a tired team and I think this week in particular will be good for them.  We are home until Saturday when they travel to New Jersey then home again until the following Wed. when they travel to Miami.  So aside from that one game only in New Jersey they will be home for a week and 1/2.  It will be a good time to get some good rest not traveling everywhere and get some good practice time in.  I wouldn't be surprised after this time frame we start getting on a good roll again. 


Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2009, 11:19:55 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

from the limited times i saw him in college and the utah games, hes a lot smarter basketball wise than TA. Of course, so are alot of people, but i don't think he's going to be Turnover tony 2.0 on the court :D
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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2009, 05:00:50 AM »

Offline thedawg

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When LeBron splits the double and takes his stride to the hoop , who would you rather have there, 6'6" big baby or 7'1" O'Bryant?

Is O'Bryant sleepy?  They used to say that about Sam Perkins.

Wouldn't Walker have relished the challenge of LeBron just now instead of our having to watch Pierce (showing his age) be ripped apart all night?

If Giddens is unable to step on an NBA court now, why did the Celtics
geniuses pick him in the 1st round?  He should be able to provide a few points at the two. Now.

The Celts lost Posey and PJ Brown. Where are their  effective replacements?
That additional big man contribution is essential for this team to equal last years finishers.

And with these shortcomings, Ainge and Rivers are saying the Celts must play better?
This team is exhausted. Play the young fresh guys....get another reliable..6'10' to 7 footer.....develop your guys and you won't need the home court advantage to knock everybody else off.

I totally agree with this post!  Why bother having a bench if it sucks so bad???  The biggest disappointment for me this season is how weak our bench is and how we did not address that issue in the pre-season.  As fantastic Ainge was in last pre-season assembling the big three and their sidekicks but this year he did a poor job!
 
 We desperately need a big man and POB is a huge player and should be given the chance.  We can moan about him not being ready but sports are all about confidence and giving him 10 mins for the next 10-12 games would be enough to judge his performance and see if he has got what we are looking for.  If not, then he can go.  Remember Joe Johnson?  We gave him away because he wasnt getting any minutes and look at him now laughing at the Celtics today.  Billups anyone?  I dont have a coaching degree but I it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that players want to play and they get confidence if they are included in things. 

Why not just cut our two rookies and have 10 players on the bench instead of paying over the odds for playing staff that we dont use?? 
In Danny Ainge I Trust!

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2009, 07:45:00 AM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

TA is no longer one of the most athletic guys on the team. This is a pre-injury myth, and one of the biggest reasons that his mistakes currently outweigh his positive contriubtions.

Pruitt, Rondo, Giddens and especially Walker are all more athletic. POB and Garnett might also be too, if you consider size/position.
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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2009, 08:00:23 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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You know, we're trying - and largely failing, at the moment - to compete for a homecourt advantage.

Now isn't the time to roll players out there just so the fans can see for themselves what the coaching staff already knows.

And the above poster is correct. Athleticism doesn't equate to success in this game - at any level - if it isn't accompanied by some other, more important qualities: effort, basketball intelligence, et al.

The answer isn't to roll out there inexperienced players (Walker, Giddens) or inept players (O'Blount). The answer is for Danny to man up and step up the search for players to correct the ghastly mistakes he made this summer that have turned this bench into a pile of steaming rubble.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 08:07:10 AM by CoachBo »
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Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2009, 08:53:44 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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You know, we're trying - and largely failing, at the moment - to compete for a homecourt advantage.

Now isn't the time to roll players out there just so the fans can see for themselves what the coaching staff already knows.

And the above poster is correct. Athleticism doesn't equate to success in this game - at any level - if it isn't accompanied by some other, more important qualities: effort, basketball intelligence, et al.

The answer isn't to roll out there inexperienced players (Walker, Giddens) or inept players (O'Blount). The answer is for Danny to man up and step up the search for players to correct the ghastly mistakes he made this summer that have turned this bench into a pile of steaming rubble.
TP4U Coach!!

I don't know how many times it has to be said that if these players aren't playing there are reasons for it and those reasons are they just aren't good enough to make it into the rotation. Basketball coaches are fickle people, especially when they are getting paid to coach. this isn't Little League where you have to give everyone some time.

If Walker and Giddens and Pruitt and O'Bryant aren't playing it is because they are not better than, will not perform better than, and have not earned the right to replace Powe, BBD, Scal, Eddie and Tony. Coaches are paid to win games not make sure that their fans get the opportunity to see what they themselves already know, that being that Walker, Giddens and especially O'Bryant don't deserve playing time.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2009, 09:01:36 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The problem is, even there's a reason for why they're not playing it doesn't mean that they wouldn't produce or play better than the ones that have a reason to be playing.

The assumption you guys are making that X player is not playing because he's not better than Y player is incredibly flawed. I think you've stated as much as it regards Ainge before nick... they're human. Even if there are justifying reasons for why certain players are playing instead of others, it doesn't mean what you guys are assuming is the case with these players, especially when you guys know that Doc hugely favors veterans for better or worse.

Too often around the league is the better player not playing because of X reason. No need to start assuming reasons as to why things happen the way they do. You're merely providing a plausible explanation... not the facts of things or the real explanation of things as you guys are apparently leading us to believe. Just as it's also true that there are people that excel in practices while others excel in games. I'm quite positive that Doc is missing that on the latter as it comes to rookies.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 09:12:23 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2009, 09:32:39 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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The problem is, even there's a reason for why they're not playing it doesn't mean that they wouldn't produce or play better than the ones that have a reason to be playing.

The assumption you guys are making that X player is not playing because he's not better than Y player is incredibly flawed. I think you've stated as much as it regards Ainge before nick... they're human. Even if there are justifying reasons for why certain players are playing instead of others, it doesn't mean what you guys are assuming is the case with these players, especially when you guys know that Doc hugely favors veterans for better or worse.

Too often around the league is the better player not playing because of X reason. No need to start assuming reasons as to why things happen the way they do. You're merely providing a plausible explanation... not the facts of things or the real explanation of things as you guys are apparently leading us to believe. Just as it's also true that there are people that excel in practices while others excel in games. I'm quite positive that Doc is missing that on the latter as it comes to rookies.
Our reasoning is flawed but the facts of things are that the coach should do the things you suggest because his eyes might be fooling him or because what he has discovered has worked in his system could be wrong. So let's test out these players even though it goes against everything his instincts and years and years of professional experience is telling him. Let's test these players because they might get in right in games even though they aren't getting it right in practice or shoot arounds and other team sponsored work outs. Let's test these players with the possibility of costing this team games and possibly Doc's job because there's a possibility, no matter how slight, that everything his knowledge and experience is telling him could be wrong.

Is that what you are trying to say? Because I don't know if you know this or not but people in the tax bracket that Doc is in, aren't paid to be wishy washy and vacillate on decisions and continue to try new things every day if something didn't work the previous day. Things don't work that way in corporate America and believe it or not, NBA basketball is corporate America.

Could Doc be completely wrong? Sure. But considering that Danny is the one that sent Walker and Giddens to the NBDL, obviously he feels Doc's decision not to play them is valid. And you have said it yourself, POB was supposed to be a project. Projects are developed in game atmospheres on BAD TEAMS, not on world championship caliber teams. Those projects are developed in practice and integrated in when they have earned that right and have shown the consistency of doing right over and over again so that the coach can use that player properly with the objective to win games. We are no longer the 22-60 Celtics. The objective is not to develop players, it's to win games.

I am sorry but I'll trust Doc's moves on this one because from what I saw in preseason and during this year, POB, Walker and Giddens are not the caliber of players I want on the floor defending the title.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2009, 09:37:15 AM »

Offline Kuberski33

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You know, we're trying - and largely failing, at the moment - to compete for a homecourt advantage.

Now isn't the time to roll players out there just so the fans can see for themselves what the coaching staff already knows.

And the above poster is correct. Athleticism doesn't equate to success in this game - at any level - if it isn't accompanied by some other, more important qualities: effort, basketball intelligence, et al.

The answer isn't to roll out there inexperienced players (Walker, Giddens) or inept players (O'Blount). The answer is for Danny to man up and step up the search for players to correct the ghastly mistakes he made this summer that have turned this bench into a pile of steaming rubble.

Or roll the dice and bring in someone with 'baggage' and hope for the best.  But, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hope that the bad economy will make some decent talent available shortly as some in the media have been speculating.

That seems to be the best hope at this point.


Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2009, 09:47:22 AM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Absolutely no on O'Bryant.  This guy doesn't belong on this team.

Regarding Walker and Giddens, from a personal interest standpoint, I'd like to see them out there in an NBA game just to gauge where they're at.  However, I don't think plugging either of those guys in the regular rotation is going to make a discernable difference.  Look, the C's have been slumping a bit but I really think its more due to lack of rest and the inability to get up to the same intensity that the Charlotte's and New York's of the world have been throwing at us lately.  Not necessarily, the need for a change in personnel.

I think thats the exact reason to Bring Walker up A) It will give us a player who is absolutely thrilled to play an NBA game and B) has the athletic skill set to energize his teammates on any given play.

It's not all about athletic ability though. TA is one of the most athletic guys on the team, but his mental mistakes negate most of the positive. Just because the guy is an athletic freak does not mean he has the ability to contribute positively in an NBA game where there are a lot of guys who have that same ability with better experience. With as thin as we are on the bench, if Danny and Doc thought either one of them could produce on the floor they would have long ago been put into the rotation.

TA is no longer one of the most athletic guys on the team. This is a pre-injury myth, and one of the biggest reasons that his mistakes currently outweigh his positive contriubtions.

Pruitt, Rondo, Giddens and especially Walker are all more athletic. POB and Garnett might also be too, if you consider size/position.

Sure TA is one of the more athletic guys on this team even after injury. He is more athletic than POB, BBD, Powe, Scal, Sam, House, Perk, Giddens, PP...

For clarification the athletic freak I was referring to was Walker. TA USED to be an athletic freak, but now he is just on the upper end of the guys out there. That's why he is a solid defender.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2009, 10:04:34 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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The problem is, even there's a reason for why they're not playing it doesn't mean that they wouldn't produce or play better than the ones that have a reason to be playing.

The assumption you guys are making that X player is not playing because he's not better than Y player is incredibly flawed. I think you've stated as much as it regards Ainge before nick... they're human. Even if there are justifying reasons for why certain players are playing instead of others, it doesn't mean what you guys are assuming is the case with these players, especially when you guys know that Doc hugely favors veterans for better or worse.

Too often around the league is the better player not playing because of X reason. No need to start assuming reasons as to why things happen the way they do. You're merely providing a plausible explanation... not the facts of things or the real explanation of things as you guys are apparently leading us to believe. Just as it's also true that there are people that excel in practices while others excel in games. I'm quite positive that Doc is missing that on the latter as it comes to rookies.
Our reasoning is flawed but the facts of things are that the coach should do the things you suggest because his eyes might be fooling him or because what he has discovered has worked in his system could be wrong. So let's test out these players even though it goes against everything his instincts and years and years of professional experience is telling him. Let's test these players because they might get in right in games even though they aren't getting it right in practice or shoot arounds and other team sponsored work outs. Let's test these players with the possibility of costing this team games and possibly Doc's job because there's a possibility, no matter how slight, that everything his knowledge and experience is telling him could be wrong.

Is that what you are trying to say? Because I don't know if you know this or not but people in the tax bracket that Doc is in, aren't paid to be wishy washy and vacillate on decisions and continue to try new things every day if something didn't work the previous day. Things don't work that way in corporate America and believe it or not, NBA basketball is corporate America.

Could Doc be completely wrong? Sure. But considering that Danny is the one that sent Walker and Giddens to the NBDL, obviously he feels Doc's decision not to play them is valid. And you have said it yourself, POB was supposed to be a project. Projects are developed in game atmospheres on BAD TEAMS, not on world championship caliber teams. Those projects are developed in practice and integrated in when they have earned that right and have shown the consistency of doing right over and over again so that the coach can use that player properly with the objective to win games. We are no longer the 22-60 Celtics. The objective is not to develop players, it's to win games.

I am sorry but I'll trust Doc's moves on this one because from what I saw in preseason and during this year, POB, Walker and Giddens are not the caliber of players I want on the floor defending the title.

Walker and Giddens are rookies, they won't be perfect in the system that's granted, that's a plausible reason for them to not play... nothing to do with they not being better players than some of the other people in the team.

Walker and Giddens were rookies that weren't going to get time on the floor early in the season (and Walker was playing quite well to earn the SF backup minutes over Scal) so their time was best served getting some minutes in the NBDL, little to do with them not being better than some of the other players in the roster.

Walker and Giddens, since they have been in NBDL, they haven't had time to practice with the team, so Doc can't really have much of an impression of what he has seen in practice. That they may not be ready to pick up all the things defensively and offensively that Doc will want at this point? Sure, but that doesn't mean they're lesser players than the ones going to the floor or that they can't contribute more than some that know the system.

Even as good as PJ knew the system last year, it took him quite a bit to perform it like it should... and it was mainly through playing in the playoffs that he started getting better and better.

Sam Cassell never got the system last year in the 2-3 months he was with us.

It's all about trust, and Doc trust veterans that much we all know. I don't blame him for doing such, but it also doesn't mean that he's putting the better player on the floor or that the players that aren't getting on the floor aren't any good nor better. Walker should be the better example of this since by all accounts Doc was quite impressed with his development and how quick he was picking up things in PRACTICE in what little he saw of his during training camp. Walker completely outplayed Scal in GAMES during the preseason. So once again, it all comes down to experience and trust over wether a player is better than another.

Re: O'Bryant, Walker Giddens must play
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2009, 10:26:26 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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They won't play, period, unless its garbage time or everyone else is hurt.

I don't think O'Bryant has looked that bad, actually, but what a fan thinks doesn't matter.