Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed

[Chris]

I think some of you are giving last years bench too much credit.  They were not that much better than they are this year.  Last years bench gave away a ton of leads as well, and was having a bunch of problems.  They became stronger down the stretch, and also seemed to be better than they were because the expectations were incredibly low, but even with Posey, the bench was incredibly inconsistent. 

[Roy Hobbs]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

And yet, in your entire post -- and over the past several pages of this thread -- you managed to almost entirely avoid discussion of Tony's inconsistency, instead making excuses for him.  You also lumped all Tony detractors into a single group, presumably because you have no facts to back up your arguments. 

For somebody who prefers the high road and loves the finer points of discussion, you sure do seem to make a lot of personal attacks, which you disguise with your use of a thesaurus.  Since such attacks are not permitted under the blog rules, I'd suggest you modify your method of posting in the future, and perhaps focus on the "discussion" that you profess to love so much.

[TradeProposalDude]

Oh man what have I created

Topics like these tend to create divisions within board members. because there are always two "sides" to the discussion. very distinct ones - the apologizers, and the realists (because let's face it, apologizing means you are not objective).

Honestly, TA can play, the biggest TA critic acknowledges that TA can play when his head's on straight. But how often does he frankly put in a good showing? And for how long will we continue to excuse his continuous erratic play?

[Jesus Shuttlesworth #20]

I'd like to see TA dunk on the threadstarter's head! Bladow!!

[crownsy]

Oh man what have I created

Topics like these tend to create divisions within board members. because there are always two "sides" to the discussion. very distinct ones - the apologizers, and the realists (because let's face it, apologizing means you are not objective).

Honestly, TA can play, the biggest TA critic acknowledges that TA can play when his head's on straight. But how often does he frankly put in a good showing? And for how long will we continue to excuse his continuous erratic play?

thats my take on it. He has one of the worst basketball IQ's ive ever seen.

If he had, say, ray allen's head for the mental aspect of the game, he'd be unstoppable.

[nickagneta]

I am one of Tony's biggest critics. I will freely admit, and have, that I hate his game because it resides completely in the physical and in no way is any part of his game cerebral. I despise that as I just have a deep ingrained passion for smart basketball and how using one's brain on the court can usually overcome the physical disadvantages one may have.

But even I will admit that Tony isn't a bad player. He is what he is, an inconsistent, middle of the road NBA bench player. He will have spectacular games. He will have games that are so bad as to become infectious and effect an entire team. His game almost always lies somewhere in between. Which isn't bad just not what I like or what I think is best for this team.

But when I voiced these opinions during last year's playoffs and during the off season the grief I received was immense. Apparently it was un-Celtic like to criticize a player that had played even the smallest part of getting this team their 17th banner. I was told that Tony was just injured. That he would come back in 2008-09 and be a new player. That Tony would return to the form he exhibited for 16 games in Dec of 2006 and Jan of 2007. That he just lacked confidence in his health. That he just lacked his explosiveness. That I would see the real Tony once again.

But none of that materialized. And all those that had christened Tony the second coming of MJ when into hiding. Sorry if I was gloating earlier but I know quite well that no one amongst the TA Fan Club was going to acknowledge they were wrong or apologize for the grief they gave me. Some of those TA lovers were quite insulting and rude back then(see SalmonandMashedPotatoes last post in this thread for an example of some of the stuff I and some of my friends had to endure).

So again I apologize for gloating, it was probably a bit immature, but I do want to say I feel vindicated.

And as for Tony he will fill a role on this team giving Doc minutes to rest RA and PP and will receive the usual mixed results. I guess it would be nice to have a Leandro Barbosa, Bruce Bowen, James Posey, Jason Terry, Trevor Ariza, Joel Pryzbilla, Rodney Stuckey type quality player coming off our bench but this year it's pretty obvious that we might not and that if we are going to repeat it's going to be because the starting five carry this team there.

And they very well might.

[Roy Hobbs]

It's time to back off the "I told you so" type of posts, as well.  Those aren't permitted under the blog rules, either.

[Brickowski]

Gee nickagenta, you must be in great pain given how well Tony has been playing lately.  He had another outstanding defensive performance last night, with 4 steals (and he forced several other turnovers) plus stifling defense on Salmons.

[dark_lord]

The self-congratulation on this thread is laughable, but maybe I'm just under the mistaken assumption that discussion boards are for discussion

Actually, I have an idea.  Instead of wasting the next 3 pages of this thread agreeing with each other, y'all--namely cordobes, Nickagneta, CoachBo, EJPLAYA, dark_lord, Roy Hobbs, et al--should do Celticsblog a favor and just rent a house together where you can tell each other 24/7 just how great and logical you all are, playfully chide each other for your use of facts, hand out TPs to each other for little things like rolling out of bed, and sit around and remind yourself just how right you were 4 years ago when you first had this or that brilliant thought about TA's ultimate fate.  I mean, in the company of such prescient thinkers who obviously have no use for dissenting viewpoints (since they never bother to listen to or address them), what exactly is the use of posting on a discussion board?  Please, enlighten me.

so because i dont like tony's game, u blackball me and get personal.....talk about juvenile, not to mention against the rules of the blog.  i have not engaged in any self-congratulatory behaviors in this thread.  i have consistently stated i do not like tony's game and listed the reasons why.  i have stated numerous times i am concerned about tony's consistency and play in the playoffs, since thats when it matters most.

 if you have a different viewpoint, bring something to the table about ur stance, rather than be immature and start belittling others who do not share your viewpoint.  thats rather ignorant.

ive been a member of this blog for a long time and have always been able to get along with members who i disagree with.  but posts like this create drama.  not very mature or cool for that matter.

in the end i want tony to be a great player and help the team.  thats the bottom line.  im a celtics fan and want another championship. if he can improve on his weaknesses, great! it only helps the team.  i root for the name on the front of the jersey first and foremost.

[KungPoweChicken]

The Celtic bench is not playing too much worse than last year. However, the idea that Allen was going to replace Posey was unreasonable. Allen is a completely different player than Posey was for the Celtics.

Tony Allen is currently a solid bench player. Stats do not always dictate how important a player is.

The idea that Allen is a terrible player or a great player are both unfounded. And the belief that the Celtics cannot win the championship with Allen playing a prominent role is premature.

The amount of bullying on this thread is sickening.

[EJPLAYA]

I find it kind of funny how we all take people's opinions on here and use them in the extreme to either fit our own view, or show them up and prove them wrong. (of course based on the results of one game) We selfishly forget to comment on the majority of that persons post which was accurate and dead on, only focusing on the part we disagree with.

There isn't one person on here that hates TA's game, myself included, that doesn't think that the guy is a very gifted athlete and if he had ANY basketball sense could be a starter in this league and with some effort on his jumper an All-Star. He is what he is though, and 4 years of the same is a pretty good sample size to show that is likely to continue. An athletic freak who at times can look great, but most of the time he is just a turnover prone out of control player out there.

I sat there watching his defense most of the night last night since the game was so interesting, and here is what I observed. A guy who defensively over ran almost every play, but was so athletic he could often make up for it. He had a couple steals that were him getting faked into the air, but was able to steal the pass or block the shot because he was way up there. None of that was really great defense, rather a gambling player with great athletic ability who made up for his focus. It works for him often. Some times he commits stupid fouls because he got himself out of position. I wouldn't call him an outstanding defender though. Very good in spite of his poor fundamentals.

The point would be, stop attacking the individual person themselves when you haven't made your point and want to stay with it. Back up your comments with at least a fact or two. Don't pull one sentence out of someone's post that you disagree with to bash on without addressing the rest of the post that proved most of your point wrong. Stop taking one game and using it to say "See! He is great." when people are pointing out traits that are consistent his entire career. In TA's case, the sample size is big enough that you are likely to get what you see. A guy who should be a 4th option on the 2nd squad of a championship team who is forced into a big role instead.

[crownsy]

The Celtic bench is not playing too much worse than last year. However, the idea that Allen was going to replace Posey was unreasonable. Allen is a completely different player than Posey was for the Celtics.

Tony Allen is currently a solid bench player. Stats do not always dictate how important a player is.

The idea that Allen is a terrible player or a great player are both unfounded. And the belief that the Celtics cannot win the championship with Allen playing a prominent role is premature.

The amount of bullying on this thread is sickening.

TP4U

This thread has gotten out of hand.

[Finkelskyhook]

Statistical proof that Tony Allen hasn't developed much over the past five years:

Stats per 36 minutes

04-05: 14.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.5 fg%, 38.7 3pt%, 2.2 tpg, 4.5 pf
05-06: 13.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.1 fg%, 32.4 3pt%, 2.5 tpg, 4.6 pf
06-07: 16.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.2 spg,  0.5 bpg,51.4 fg%, 24.2 3pt%, 3.4 tpg, 3.9 pf
07-08: 13.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.6 bpg, 43.6 fg%, 31.6 3pt%, 2.9 tpg, 4.4 pf
08-09: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 fg%, 16.7 3pt%, 3.1 tpg, 4.0 pf

I don't see how anybody looks at that progression and sees any development.  Tony Allen is essentially the exact same player now as he has been the past four seasons.

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.  He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.  He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.  Only Rondo is capable of making the defensive plays that Tony makes. 

If Rivers smartens up and doesn't play the starters when the team is up 40, ala last night, they can pick up more minutes in the playoffs. THEY should be the ones picking up the slack for Posey in the playoffs.  The three are a salary cap in themselves.  It should be expected of them in the playoffs. Putting the starters in for most of the third quarter last night, particularly when things started to get chippy, was one of the dumbest coaching moves in Rivers' coaching history.  And there have been many to choose from.  The starters shouldn't have seen the floor in the second half.  This was an opportunity to give players like Tony, among others, extended minutes against another team's starters while resting the starters (especially Perk coming off a nagging injury) for the Portland game.  Danny idiot-proofed the roster.  He idiot-proofed the coaching staff.  But apparently, he can't idiot-proof Rivers.  When one of the three gets injured in a game like this when they're firing up threes when up 30+, Rivers should be fired.  Especially on the west coast road trip where everybody needs rest.  To have the starters in a game where the Kings had literally no chance to compete the way both teams were playing was ridiculous....And very risky.

[nickagneta]

Gee nickagenta, you must be in great pain given how well Tony has been playing lately.  He had another outstanding defensive performance last night, with 4 steals (and he forced several other turnovers) plus stifling defense on Salmons.

I want Tony to do well and help this team and do not feel good when he is not playing well.

I went out of my way earlier in the year(the first 10-12 games or so) to say that Tony was playing extremely well and seemed to be playing smarter basketball. I will freely admit when I am wrong and have many times in the past here.

But Tony regressed into what Tony is and he had a good game last night, as he is prone to have because he is very inconsistent. Against Portland, he could be spectacular or horrid or somewhere in between because that is his nature. Which is just fine.

But I wasn't the one portraying Tony into something that he wasn't.

And as for last night Tony had some good stats.

He also almost gave away one of those steals because instead of passing the ball to someone on the break he took it in himself and then jumped to soon on the layup, had the ball clank off the front of the rim and was bailed out on a ticky tack foul call. I forget who was running the break but if Tony was smart and had just followed the training coaches had put into him since grade school he would have done what you are supposed to do on a 2 on 1 break. He would have picked one side of the court, spaced out the break, passed back and forth until the defender picked a man and then had an easy lay in. But he went straight down the lane, ignored the man running with him, got himself fouled on a sure 2 points and missed timed his jump on a lay up and missed the shot.

This whole play epitomizes what Tony is all about. And since I went to bed when the score was 72-36 in the third quarter, all I can say is that I saw what EJ saw on some of Tony's defense. Case in point his first foul. His man had just gotten the pass at the foul line and was dribbling away from the camera view. Tony was recovering from doubling down. Tony could have and should have just played tough perimeter defense and forced him outside but instead lunged for the steal and breakaway and he picked up a dumb foul. Fine it was his first, they were up big and he gambled. But he does this all the time whether up twenty, down twenty, in foul trouble or not, whether his team is in the penalty or not, whether his opponent is shooting a three pointer or not. He's a gambling defender that does some really dumb stuff sometimes.

And just like any other gambler whether on or off the court, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. Last night he walked away from the table with more money than he arrived with. Most nights, he won't. That's just the nature of gambling. 

[cordobes]

Statistical proof that Tony Allen hasn't developed much over the past five years:

Stats per 36 minutes

04-05: 14.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.5 fg%, 38.7 3pt%, 2.2 tpg, 4.5 pf
05-06: 13.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.1 fg%, 32.4 3pt%, 2.5 tpg, 4.6 pf
06-07: 16.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 2.2 spg,  0.5 bpg,51.4 fg%, 24.2 3pt%, 3.4 tpg, 3.9 pf
07-08: 13.0 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.6 bpg, 43.6 fg%, 31.6 3pt%, 2.9 tpg, 4.4 pf
08-09: 14.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.7 bpg, 47.6 fg%, 16.7 3pt%, 3.1 tpg, 4.0 pf

I don't see how anybody looks at that progression and sees any development.  Tony Allen is essentially the exact same player now as he has been the past four seasons.

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.

That would be impressive if his USG% was diminished. For example, Ray's usg% went down from 29.5% in Seattle to 21.5% in Boston last season - of course it'd be impossible for him to keep the same numbers on a per minute basis. But that's not the case with Tony Allen. His usg% the last four years has been steady:

18.8
22.1
19.5
21.4

In fact, the improvement on the overall quality of the team should lead to an improvement on his numbers, all things equal - he's playing the same amount of minutes while keeping his usage rate.

He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.

Huh? What's his position?

He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.

He frequently hurts the team. Every 35 minutes he gets 2.7 steals and 3 turnovers. Nobody in the team turns over the ball at his rate; and few in the entire league reach his production on this particular aspect.

If Rivers smartens up and doesn't play the starters when the team is up 40, ala last night, they can pick up more minutes in the playoffs. THEY should be the ones picking up the slack for Posey in the playoffs.  The three are a salary cap in themselves.  It should be expected of them in the playoffs. Putting the starters in for most of the third quarter last night, particularly when things started to get chippy, was one of the dumbest coaching moves in Rivers' coaching history.  And there have been many to choose from.  The starters shouldn't have seen the floor in the second half.  This was an opportunity to give players like Tony, among others, extended minutes against another team's starters while resting the starters (especially Perk coming off a nagging injury) for the Portland game.  Danny idiot-proofed the roster.  He idiot-proofed the coaching staff.  But apparently, he can't idiot-proof Rivers.  When one of the three gets injured in a game like this when they're firing up threes when up 30+, Rivers should be fired.  Especially on the west coast road trip where everybody needs rest.  To have the starters in a game where the Kings had literally no chance to compete the way both teams were playing was ridiculous....And very risky.

I understand you nurture an intense hate for Rivers, but just out of curiosity, has that ever happened? Has a coach kept the starters on the bench for the second half because he had a 25 points advantage at the halftime? It's a honest question, I can't remember, but if you want the guy fired for that, it must be more common than what I thought.