Author Topic: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed  (Read 36131 times)

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Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« on: December 25, 2008, 08:53:43 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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God, it's so frustrating to watch Tony Allen. He reminded me of a younger version of himself tonight when he kept turning over the ball and getting called for charges. I cringed whenever he touched the ball tonight. JVG was right, the ball should have been in the hands of Ray Allen when unit B was on the floor.

His number one and two strengths are his ability to attack the rim and his on ball defense. Without most of his (at one time) freakish athleticism, he has trouble finishing. His only move is a crossover dribble and hook volley that goes in about 40% of the time. As for his defense, it's just not "lockdown" material as it used to be. I really do think he's regressed. He can look good once in a while, and remind us what kind of player he *could* be if he were to apply his talents correctly along with the correct mental frame. But how long are we going to apologize for his obvious deficiencies?

It's time the Celtics look to find a real offensive weapon coming off the bench. This team should look into trading for Corey Maggette, who's on the trading block. Defensively we'll be fine. The talk of Dikembe Mutombo considering  signing here doesn't ignite my interest because he won't bring anything significant on offense. OFFENSE is our problem. Team defense is fine, don't fix it.

Honestly, I really don't want this team to look to Sam Cassell when unit A guys are tired and we need instant offense. Powe is a good role player when defenses aren't focusing on him entirely. I guess this is where Posey was most valuable, because he stretched the defense and kept them honest about his range. I totally don't think I'm overreacting to one poor game by the way. I really think it's a concern that could have been highlighted in almost any one of the wins where TA played... it just wasn't because the win overshadowed it.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2008, 08:56:49 PM »

Offline housecall

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Are you saying its possible that TA has reached his ceiling as a player?

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 09:01:15 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Are you saying its possible that TA has reached his ceiling as a player?
I think that Tony Allen had the physical capacity entering the NBA to be an impact player... along the lines of a younger Ron Artest. However mentally he's always been out in left field. He doesn't know how to control himself when he's handling the ball. The experiment transforming him into a PG during the 2005 summer league was the biggest mistake the Celtics coaching staff ever made with him. He can look good against gimmick defenses, but against a healthy balanced team like LA, he'll get his shot blocked and make careless decisions. When there's a fast break opportunity, it's so easy to just step in front of him and get called for the charge. Because he's so predictable.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2008, 09:09:53 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Are you saying its possible that TA has reached his ceiling as a player?
I think that Tony Allen had the physical capacity entering the NBA to be an impact player... along the lines of a younger Ron Artest. However mentally he's always been out in left field. He doesn't know how to control himself when he's handling the ball. The experiment transforming him into a PG during the 2005 summer league was the biggest mistake the Celtics coaching staff ever made with him. He can look good against gimmick defenses, but against a healthy balanced team like LA, he'll get his shot blocked and make careless decisions. When there's a fast break opportunity, it's so easy to just step in front of him and get called for the charge. Because he's so predictable.

With TA it has always been mental vs. physical. The problem now though is his physical ability has slipped due to injuries, while his mental has not improved a bit. He isn't a bright guy. Just athletic.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2008, 09:13:14 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Are you saying its possible that TA has reached his ceiling as a player?
I think that Tony Allen had the physical capacity entering the NBA to be an impact player... along the lines of a younger Ron Artest. However mentally he's always been out in left field. He doesn't know how to control himself when he's handling the ball. The experiment transforming him into a PG during the 2005 summer league was the biggest mistake the Celtics coaching staff ever made with him. He can look good against gimmick defenses, but against a healthy balanced team like LA, he'll get his shot blocked and make careless decisions. When there's a fast break opportunity, it's so easy to just step in front of him and get called for the charge. Because he's so predictable.

With TA it has always been mental vs. physical. The problem now though is his physical ability has slipped due to injuries, while his mental has not improved a bit. He isn't a bright guy. Just athletic.
And we're counting on this guy to be a 6th / 7th man!

We're in trouble... 19 game streak aside, the bench Isnt that good
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 09:23:32 PM by Edgar »

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2008, 10:54:51 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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I feel like a broken record, as about 25% of my posts mention my hatred for TA, so all I am going to say is that we all better hope that none of our starting 5 gets hurt, as the bench is a disaster.  Tony is not the answer at backup 2/3...I know Pruitt is undersized but at this point they really need to stick him out there and see what he can do.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 11:15:10 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Imagine me becoming the voice of reason on TA.

The guy simply doesn't think the game. He can help us as a lockdown defender - on occasion, when he can keep his feet on the floor. From that standpoint, he's a useful piece. But for the folks on this board who've contended that basketball intelligence doesn't matter, evaluate his play today objectively, then look me in the eyes again and tell me hoop smarts don't matter. They make a HUGE difference, to the point that they elevated a player with very ordinary physical skills to iconic status. That player was Larry Bird.

The problem is Tony with the basketball. I've been cringing for four years when he handles the ball, and I'm still cringing. He frankly shouldn't be allowed to attempt a jump shot, and every careening lurch to the basket is "oh, no" time.

He's a role player, period, a ninth or 10th man. Nothing more. Not ever. He's not a star, despite the frequent attempts on this board to portray him as such. He's simply not basketball-intelligent enough to be a star.

As for the bench, I agree. It isn't very good, despite the attempts recently to twist numbers to make that so. We will not repeat with this bench. Mark that down. We can't match up with size, we have literally no scoring off the bench and when Tony's mind is elsewhere, it doesn't defend that well, either. Danny's got to make at least a couple of significant additions, or we won't get past Cleveland.

Danny's summer doesn't look so hot now, does it?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 11:20:48 PM by CoachBo »
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2008, 11:24:01 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Are you saying its possible that TA has reached his ceiling as a player?
I think that Tony Allen had the physical capacity entering the NBA to be an impact player... along the lines of a younger Ron Artest. However mentally he's always been out in left field. He doesn't know how to control himself when he's handling the ball. The experiment transforming him into a PG during the 2005 summer league was the biggest mistake the Celtics coaching staff ever made with him. He can look good against gimmick defenses, but against a healthy balanced team like LA, he'll get his shot blocked and make careless decisions. When there's a fast break opportunity, it's so easy to just step in front of him and get called for the charge. Because he's so predictable.

With TA it has always been mental vs. physical. The problem now though is his physical ability has slipped due to injuries, while his mental has not improved a bit. He isn't a bright guy. Just athletic.
And we're counting on this guy to be a 6th / 7th man!

We're in trouble... 19 game streak aside, the bench Isnt that good

the bench isn't some crazy team killing ancor as other posts try to point out either. its an average bench missing one piece (an athletic 3/4 or a big, either or.)

Plus, if you think this is the bench were taking into the playoffs, i have some prime beach land in alaska i'd like to sell you ;)   
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2008, 11:27:47 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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I feel like a broken record, as about 25% of my posts mention my hatred for TA, so all I am going to say is that we all better hope that none of our starting 5 gets hurt, as the bench is a disaster.  Tony is not the answer at backup 2/3...I know Pruitt is undersized but at this point they really need to stick him out there and see what he can do.
Honestly, he's our best unused option at this point. A lineup of Pruitt with House at SG and Pierce / R. Allen at SF (small lineup) will score points.

Pruitt has shown me that he can shoot and play under control. He can play. I don't know why he is shorted of minutes he deserves.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2008, 11:34:33 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Imagine me becoming the voice of reason on TA.

The guy simply doesn't think the game. He can help us as a lockdown defender - on occasion, when he can keep his feet on the floor. From that standpoint, he's a useful piece. But for the folks on this board who've contended that basketball intelligence doesn't matter, evaluate his play today objectively, then look me in the eyes again and tell me hoop smarts don't matter. They make a HUGE difference, to the point that they elevated a player with very ordinary physical skills to iconic status. That player was Larry Bird.

The problem is Tony with the basketball. I've been cringing for four years when he handles the ball, and I'm still cringing. He frankly shouldn't be allowed to attempt a jump shot, and every careening lurch to the basket is "oh, no" time.

He's a role player, period, a ninth or 10th man. Nothing more. Not ever. He's not a star, despite the frequent attempts on this board to portray him as such. He's simply not basketball-intelligent enough to be a star.

As for the bench, I agree. It isn't very good, despite the attempts recently to twist numbers to make that so. We will not repeat with this bench. Mark that down. We can't match up with size, we have literally no scoring off the bench and when Tony's mind is elsewhere, it doesn't defend that well, either. Danny's got to make at least a couple of significant additions, or we won't get past Cleveland.

Danny's summer doesn't look so hot now, does it?
Well if you are suggesting that they should have re-signed Posey, I disagree. The Celtics handled that situation perfectly. Why overpay for someone who can be replaced at smaller money? Wouldn't he potentially put a stranglehold on your team's cap, as a 6th or 7th weapon on offense? I love Posey and what he brings to a basketball team as a "glue guy", but there are financial constraints involved. Considering his role, further precaution needs to be taken to ensure he doesn't receive more than what his role demands. You can get away with it to some extent with your #1 option(s).

Honestly I'd love to see PJ Brown back in green. There's a pretty good reason Danny wanted him back (and probably would open up a spot for him on the roster if he so requested to return). Forget veteran leadership - he played both sides of the ball. He contributed defensively, but I think he made his mark with timely shots. He's too content with retirement so in any case it's a moot point.

My initial proposal to get Corey Maggette is the best one I can think of. He is like a slightly less advanced version in offensive terms to Paul Pierce. He gets to the FT line. He actually knows how to draw the foul, unlike TA. This guy would be perfect for the 2nd unit. I just don't think the owners are committed to spending more money for auxiliary players though. I think they've reached their pinnacle while forecasting future expenditures. They don't want to make the mistake of signing someone who fills a short term need so that come time bigger ventures were on the horizon (such as Pierce and Allen becoming FAs and needing the money to re-sign them), they have the ability to do what's important and necessary.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 11:40:02 PM by TradeProposalDude »

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2008, 11:40:51 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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Tony isn't going to replace Posey. Not today. Not ever.

The fact is, Posey's ability to stretch defenses, score with the second unit and play at least passable defense are qualities glaringly absent from this bench. The ONLY thing Tony can replace that Posey gave us is two or three decent defensive possessions, and that's only when he has his wits about him.

We are at a point where we're going to have to find a replacement for the bench scoring and defense. It's going to be interesting to see a) if we can and b) what the price for that is. Without it, we will not repeat.

If you're worried about 2011, letting Posey walk was probably a good thing. If you want to win a title this year, it was penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2008, 11:44:35 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Tony isn't going to replace Posey. Not today. Not ever.

The fact is, Posey's ability to stretch defenses, score with the second unit and play at least passable defense are qualities glaringly absent from this bench. The ONLY thing Tony can replace that Posey gave us is two or three decent defensive possessions, and that's only when he has his wits about him.

We are at a point where we're going to have to find a replacement for the bench scoring and defense. It's going to be interesting to see a) if we can and b) what the price for that is. Without it, we will not repeat.

If you're worried about 2011, letting Posey walk was probably a good thing. If you want to win a title this year, it was penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Good points. I think it comes down to the finances. Now, what would you think of packaging Scal + Giddens or Walker + T. Allen + a couple 2nd's for Corey Maggette? Maggette has *5* years left on his deal. Owners may not find that enticing, but Ainge might force them at this point to tackle that sort of commitment. He knows the bench stinks. So why not bolster it with a guy who can score?

Back to Posey, it's the stretching the D part that I think needs to be highlighted. Because defensively, it's a wash between he and TA in most respects. This team isn't any worse defensively as last year's. Offense is what concerns me.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2008, 02:48:07 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I don't remember the second team scoring that well last year. I remember the second team having a lot of stretches where they struggled offensively, but were strong enough defensively to compensate.

I remember Posey being more effective scoring with the starters

I felt that Posey would have been helpful on offense against the Lakers since the Lakers clogged the middle when TA and Rondo were in the game. TA looked bad on his 3 attempted, and worse when trying to force it inside on kickouts.

But Posey isn't on the team this year, so the point is moot.

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2008, 07:42:44 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Tony isn't going to replace Posey. Not today. Not ever.

The fact is, Posey's ability to stretch defenses, score with the second unit and play at least passable defense are qualities glaringly absent from this bench. The ONLY thing Tony can replace that Posey gave us is two or three decent defensive possessions, and that's only when he has his wits about him.

We are at a point where we're going to have to find a replacement for the bench scoring and defense. It's going to be interesting to see a) if we can and b) what the price for that is. Without it, we will not repeat.

If you're worried about 2011, letting Posey walk was probably a good thing. If you want to win a title this year, it was penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Good points. I think it comes down to the finances. Now, what would you think of packaging Scal + Giddens or Walker + T. Allen + a couple 2nd's for Corey Maggette? Maggette has *5* years left on his deal. Owners may not find that enticing, but Ainge might force them at this point to tackle that sort of commitment. He knows the bench stinks. So why not bolster it with a guy who can score?

Back to Posey, it's the stretching the D part that I think needs to be highlighted. Because defensively, it's a wash between he and TA in most respects. This team isn't any worse defensively as last year's. Offense is what concerns me.

Obviously, I'm not sure what the motivation was behind the bench that's been built, but it looks suspiciously like a penny-pinching move by ownership. At any rate, a move for Maggette should have been taken a lot more seriously after Posey departed, and it's something that should be considered now if he's available, and I don't know if he is.

And if he is, then you're laying out more money to fill a spot that could have been filled more cheaply - by Posey. That doesn't take into account sheer defensive effort, which has at best been sporadic this year and was nowhere to be found in the first half against the Lakers. I'm not convinced, frankly, that we are "ok" defensively.

But ... he's not the only piece this bench needs. We cannot match up defensively against any size with Perkins - whose defense was second-rate yesterday - is on the bench. We need length, rebounding and shotblocking off the bench that we don't have.

At any rate, I don't like Tony Allen's game. Never have. Never will. Whatever he adds defensively - which is possession-by-possession sporadic - he cancels out with poor judgment with the basketball. It's habitually overrated by the posters on this board.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 07:48:33 AM by CoachBo »
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 08:51:38 AM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Obviously, I'm not sure what the motivation was behind the bench that's been built, but it looks suspiciously like a penny-pinching move by ownership. At any rate, a move for Maggette should have been taken a lot more seriously after Posey departed, and it's something that should be considered now if he's available, and I don't know if he is.

And if he is, then you're laying out more money to fill a spot that could have been filled more cheaply - by Posey. That doesn't take into account sheer defensive effort, which has at best been sporadic this year and was nowhere to be found in the first half against the Lakers. I'm not convinced, frankly, that we are "ok" defensively.

But ... he's not the only piece this bench needs. We cannot match up defensively against any size with Perkins - whose defense was second-rate yesterday - is on the bench. We need length, rebounding and shotblocking off the bench that we don't have.

At any rate, I don't like Tony Allen's game. Never have. Never will. Whatever he adds defensively - which is possession-by-possession sporadic - he cancels out with poor judgment with the basketball. It's habitually overrated by the posters on this board.
I know what you mean, but Maggette is a much, much better offensive player than Posey. My argument is that when your team defense is already as good as it is, what do you lose by adding an inferior defender to James like Corey? The net effect is positive because he'd give us what we need on the 2nd unit - a scorer who can get to the FT line. It'll also open things up for Leon who's being double teamed and having trouble with it.

I agree though, Celtics need a 6'10+ guy off the bench. I guess now I can see why we might need Deke. Or PJ Brown. I don't like our chances of grabbing either of those guys though.

I think Ainge will come through for us and get us a backup big who gives us what we need. Rasho Nesterovic, if he's available, should play for our team...

 

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