Four years later, Tony Allen still hasn't developed

[EJPLAYA]

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.  He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.  He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.  Only Rondo is capable of making the defensive plays that Tony makes. 


[/quote]

Finkel, you and I agree on a lot of things but here is a comment that is so ridiculous that I almost spit soda out of my nose onto my computer!  He RARELY hurts the team?! You've got to be kidding me!!! The guy completely stagnates our offense out there with dumb play after dumb play. I also spent most of the night watching what he does with the ball when he gets it and it confirmed what I already knew. He gets the ball at the wing, and doesn't even PRETEND like he is looking into the post. He is only trying to isolate his guy, dribble between his legs or behind his back in traffic, and go head down to the rim. It is only if a guy is playing great defense does he kick it back out. Often though he just picks up the charge.

Yes, last night he had a decent game. That doesn't erase the majority of the time where he doesn't. I wish he would get it. He could help our team if he'd play within himself offensively. He doesn't though. He just isn't smart enough to realize that doing the same thing over and over will continue to bring the same results!

[Chris]

He frequently hurts the team. Every 35 minutes he gets 2.7 steals and 3 turnovers. Nobody in the team turns over the ball at his rate; and few in the entire league reach his production on this particular aspect.

He also has constant mental lapses on defense, which lead to easy baskets by the other team.  I would say for every great play defensively, he will make a mental lapse defensively.  It basically ends up with him being a wash on the defensive end...but he does it with style!

I understand you nurture an intense hate for Rivers, but just out of curiosity, has that ever happened? Has a coach kept the starters on the bench for the second half because he had a 25 points advantage at the halftime? It's a honest question, I can't remember, but if you want the guy fired for that, it must be more common than what I thought.

Especially after 2 straight losses, after winning 19 straight games, including the most recent game where they blew a 14 point second half lead to a team that is just as bad, and was missing 3 of their best players (Ellis, Maggette and Crawford).  If ever a coach needed to keep his starters in a little longer to make sure they truly close out a game, that was the time IMO.

[Brickowski]

Well, I've been as critical of Rivers as anyone, and will probably be critical in the future.

But he was right to leave the starters in last night.  They were playing too well.

The game was, in effect, a scrimmage in lieu of a practice on the road.  The starters were hitting on all cylinders-- playing really well at both ends.  You want to give that unit a few extra minutes to imprint on their brains what it feels like to play that way.

As for the criticsim of Tony Allen, let me put it this way: Posey can't do some of the things that Tony Allen does, either. They're different players with different skills.  The TA hatred is unfounded, just as the Delonte West hatred we saw until he was traded was unfounded. (I bet Cavs fans appreciate him, though.)   

[crownsy]

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.  He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.  He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.  Only Rondo is capable of making the defensive plays that Tony makes. 

Finkel, you and I agree on a lot of things but here is a comment that is so ridiculous that I almost spit soda out of my nose onto my computer!  He RARELY hurts the team?! You've got to be kidding me!!! The guy completely stagnates our offense out there with dumb play after dumb play. I also spent most of the night watching what he does with the ball when he gets it and it confirmed what I already knew. He gets the ball at the wing, and doesn't even PRETEND like he is looking into the post. He is only trying to isolate his guy, dribble between his legs or behind his back in traffic, and go head down to the rim. It is only if a guy is playing great defense does he kick it back out. Often though he just picks up the charge.

Yes, last night he had a decent game. That doesn't erase the majority of the time where he doesn't. I wish he would get it. He could help our team if he'd play within himself offensively. He doesn't though. He just isn't smart enough to realize that doing the same thing over and over will continue to bring the same results!
[/quote]

Flip that though EJ, doc preachs time after time that the bench has no creator off the dribble aside from TA. Every game, TA tries to create of the dribble.

you don't think the coaching staff might be telling him to be aggresive in iso's?

I mean, look at the rest of the bench rotation.

House- can't get own shot, relies on drive and kicks.

Leon- doesn't pass back out when doubled. ever. not a great first option on offense because of this.

baby- cant get his own offense, deveolping a jumper which will help.

Unless pierce is on the floor, SOMEONE, regardless of handle, has to move the ball into the paint. Right now it HAS to be TA. wouldn't really supirse me if the coachs have given him free reign to attack the rim at will.

[celts55]

Gee nickagenta, you must be in great pain given how well Tony has been playing lately.  He had another outstanding defensive performance last night, with 4 steals (and he forced several other turnovers) plus stifling defense on Salmons.

4 steals is great. It's the fact that after he steals the ball, he puts his head down and runs totally out of control down the court. This more often than not leads to a turn over, charging call, or some redicules looking shot.

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

[Chris]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

[celts55]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

[crownsy]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

refer to my above post. who moves the ball with that lineup? it would be 4 guys standing around and one overworked starter.

TA is the only guy on our bench who can attack the paint. period. 

[celts55]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

refer to my above post. who moves the ball with that lineup? it would be 4 guys standing around and one overworked starter.

TA is the only guy on our bench who can attack the paint. period. 

While I agree that he is the only one in that group who attacks the hoop, I have to ask, what good is that if you turn the ball over most of the time? Now if he attacked the hoop and finished I'd have to argee with you, but since he can't I have to disagree with you. period.

[crownsy]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

refer to my above post. who moves the ball with that lineup? it would be 4 guys standing around and one overworked starter.

TA is the only guy on our bench who can attack the paint. period. 

While I agree that he is the only one in that group who attacks the hoop, I have to ask, what good is that if you turn the ball over most of the time? Now if he attacked the hoop and finished I'd have to argee with you, but since he can't I have to disagree with you. period.

I ask you: what good is benching him if we get no offense, at all, from 4 players who don't move with the ball well?

you want to lose games to try to prove a "point" to TA? I don't.

also, again, look at my above post. I'm no big TA booster, but isn't it atleast possable he's driving so hard and often because the coaching staff realizes he's thier only remotley competent offenseive player at getting into the lane to open up floor spacing with the second unit?

I say yes.

Without TA, scal, leon, baby and house would just stand thier looking at each other, waiting for someone to do something to get them the ball in thier prefered spot.

Id love another creator on the bench, lord knows we nee done, heck we might have one in pruitt, but since DOC trusts TA to be that creator, this is what we've got.

[Chris]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

I just don't think Basketball is that simple.  So he is supposed to pick up his dribble when he makes a steal and has an open lane to the basket?  He is supposed to pick up his dribble if he gets a rebound, and needs to take the ball out of the paint to reset the offense? 

Something like a 2-3 dribble rule simply isn't enforceable, because it would lead to even more dumb plays if he actually followed it.  The problem isn't that he dribbles the ball too much, it is that he doesn't know when to dribble and when not to.  You aren't going to solve that problem and make the team any better by giving him a rule like that.

[Finkelskyhook]

Finkel, you and I agree on a lot of things but here is a comment that is so ridiculous that I almost spit soda out of my nose onto my computer!  He RARELY hurts the team?!

  Hopefully you're drinking sugar free soda so you don't ruin your keyboard..

This overanalysis of role players is what I object to.  The trashing of players like Scal, O'Bryant, and Tony kind of gets on my nerves.  Scal and Tony seem like good teammates, play whatever role they're asked, and IMHO, generally don't send the team into lottery stature when they're on the court.  They're not starters or superstars for a reason.  Anybody who thinks Tony hasn't progressed isn't watching him.  His handle is better, his defense is better, and he's accomplishing as much without the athletism he once had.  Tony does more good than bad and is cheap.  

Crownsy, I agree with your role player analysis for the most part.  That's why one of the salary-cap-in-one players should be on the court with them....unless the game is already out of hand.

I understand you nurture an intense hate for Rivers, but just out of curiosity, has that ever happened? Has a coach kept the starters on the bench for the second half because he had a 25 points advantage at the halftime? It's a honest question, I can't remember, but if you want the guy fired for that, it must be more common than what I thought. /i]

Rivers is no Red, KC, or even Obie.  I don't nurture a hatred for him.  But at some point, he should have a little bit of a feel for the situation at hand.  When your opponent has literally no chance to compete and the next team you're playing has younger legs and will be gunning for you, why have Paul, Perk, Kevin, or Ray out there?  Or Rondo, for that matter.  Rondo plays the game with Delonte's reckless abandon.  Why risk injury?  If the Kings had an epifamy and suddenly got within 20 and you're worried, put them back in.  Otherwise, the Utah Flash would have beaten the Kings last night.  It's a great opportunity to see what the second unit and beyond brings to the table in extended minutes.
Why would you risk injury to your 60m players so they can jack up threes in what was essentially summer league-caliber competition?

 

[EJPLAYA]

The development I see is the fact that anybody can put up numbers on a bad team.  Tony is doing the same thing on a great team with 3 stars.  He's also done it while being asked to play out of position.  He rarely hurts the team when he's on the floor.  For every boneheaded play he makes on the offensive end he makes two great defensive plays on the defensive end.  Only Rondo is capable of making the defensive plays that Tony makes. 

Finkel, you and I agree on a lot of things but here is a comment that is so ridiculous that I almost spit soda out of my nose onto my computer!  He RARELY hurts the team?! You've got to be kidding me!!! The guy completely stagnates our offense out there with dumb play after dumb play. I also spent most of the night watching what he does with the ball when he gets it and it confirmed what I already knew. He gets the ball at the wing, and doesn't even PRETEND like he is looking into the post. He is only trying to isolate his guy, dribble between his legs or behind his back in traffic, and go head down to the rim. It is only if a guy is playing great defense does he kick it back out. Often though he just picks up the charge.

Yes, last night he had a decent game. That doesn't erase the majority of the time where he doesn't. I wish he would get it. He could help our team if he'd play within himself offensively. He doesn't though. He just isn't smart enough to realize that doing the same thing over and over will continue to bring the same results!

Flip that though EJ, doc preachs time after time that the bench has no creator off the dribble aside from TA. Every game, TA tries to create of the dribble.

you don't think the coaching staff might be telling him to be aggresive in iso's?

I mean, look at the rest of the bench rotation.

House- can't get own shot, relies on drive and kicks.

Leon- doesn't pass back out when doubled. ever. not a great first option on offense because of this.

baby- cant get his own offense, deveolping a jumper which will help.

Unless pierce is on the floor, SOMEONE, regardless of handle, has to move the ball into the paint. Right now it HAS to be TA. wouldn't really supirse me if the coachs have given him free reign to attack the rim at will.


[/quote]

Sorry crownsy, but your wrong on this one on some of the above. Powe shouldn't be giving the ball up in the paint when it occasionally finds its way down to him. The guy is shooting 53% from the floor. He has shown a knack for scoring on double teams. He is the only one on that unit that provides you with some consistency on offense. Sure he isn't on fire all nights, but he is very good down low. He should be taking about 2/3rds of the shots that TA is shooting, but TA won't drop him the ball down there.

Secondly, just because TA TRIES to create off the dribble doesn't mean the results are good. I could go out there and TRY to create off the dribble, but would be yanked real quick when I am turning it over every possession. The guy is out of control most of the time. He just doesn't understand when he turns and faces what is a good time to drive it in, and what is a good time to either drop it down low or kick it out. Doc saying that he is the only one that can occasionally get into the paint may be accurate, but that doesn't mean he is happy with his constant stupid decision making. He really doesn't have much of a choice though. As presently constituted they are going to struggle. It would be less though if TA would give Leon the ball. I do agree with the assessments of House and BBD. BBD wouldn't play on my 2nd unit though.

[Brendan]

The biggest thing is TA is a frustrating player. He makes a great steal, and then commits a charge. He does a great drive and dish, and then takes an ill advised jump shot. This leads to a worst reputation than deserved. If he played the same, but didn't look like such a stud, people would be happy with his hustle.

For playoff matchups - I think he's fine for a bench wing behind Pierce and R. Allen - though not ideal. Lebron is going to Post and Posterize him - but Lebron is also a corner case and Posey got his butt handed to him by Lebron also. PP and RA should playing ~40 minutes a game in the playoffs.

And yes Leon should get the ball down low, but he should also be kicking it out either for an open J or a repost some of the time. I'm about as big of a Powe fan as you'll see and I can admit that's a hole in his game.

I do think the more TA settles in to his role (and the less its changed) the better he will be. At the same time TA could be included in any trade to make salaries match or for a team that needs some help at SG - and I don't think Giddens or Walker would be a travesty.

[celts55]

I truely believe if Doc told him he was not allowed to take more than 2 to 3 dribbles he would be a much better player. Right now the turnovers out weight the steals in my opinion.

I think that is easier said than done...especially when there is no one else to take his minutes if he is benched because he takes too many dribbles. 

So do you just let him do whatever he wants because you don't have anyone else on the bench? If he's not helping the team, I don't see it. I'd just as soon play Scal for a game or two. I think Tony would get the idea pretty quickly if he was benched for not following directions.

I just don't think Basketball is that simple.  So he is supposed to pick up his dribble when he makes a steal and has an open lane to the basket?  He is supposed to pick up his dribble if he gets a rebound, and needs to take the ball out of the paint to reset the offense? 

Something like a 2-3 dribble rule simply isn't enforceable, because it would lead to even more dumb plays if he actually followed it.  The problem isn't that he dribbles the ball too much, it is that he doesn't know when to dribble and when not to.  You aren't going to solve that problem and make the team any better by giving him a rule like that.

Of course you are correct that a 2-3 dribble rule is too confining. I'm talking about when he starts his dribbling in the corner or top of the key, tries to go behind his back or between his legs etc. If he has a free lane after a steal, sure go for it. It's when he doesn't that he should give up the ball. I've just seen him lose the ball way too many times by trying to do too much.
I also agree with Crownsy that it doesn't appear that anyone else can create on the second unit, but I don't see how TA driving to the hoop and losing the ball helps. I my estimation, this team still needs a scorer off the bench who can create. I don't believe the Allen is that guy.