How big of a miscalculation is POB?

[Sweet17]

As if there was some legit correlation between playing an extra two minutes and team failure.. <g> IT's the OH NOES THEY WILL GET TIRED argument. I guess we should hold light practices so our stars don't get worn out as well.

[nickagneta]

As if there was some legit correlation between playing an extra two minutes and team failure.. <g> IT's the OH NOES THEY WILL GET TIRED argument. I guess we should hold light practices so our stars don't get worn out as well.

Actually last year by mid-season Doc was foregoing practices at times so as not to wear out his veterans.

[BballTim]

The size differential between Powe and Bynum is unworkable in the playoffs - or in the event of an injury to Perkins, which has been a yearly issue.

I remain concerned about the minutes the Big 3 are playing - at their ages, I don't think anything outside an average of two minutes more per game is acceptable.

  Davis would play Bynum, not Powe. And the big 3 don't play huge minutes. Also, when they do play they're not single-handedly trying to carry the team like they have been for most of their careers so there's less wear and tear when they do play.

Again, the Dumpster Diving Summer is simply inexplicable to me after winning a title. Are we trying to win another one or not?

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

[BballTim]

As if there was some legit correlation between playing an extra two minutes and team failure.. <g> IT's the OH NOES THEY WILL GET TIRED argument. I guess we should hold light practices so our stars don't get worn out as well.

Actually last year by mid-season Doc was foregoing practices at times so as not to wear out his veterans.

  Almost every contender does this, not just the Celts. The big 3 had plenty in the tank for the playoffs last year.

[nickagneta]

As if there was some legit correlation between playing an extra two minutes and team failure.. <g> IT's the OH NOES THEY WILL GET TIRED argument. I guess we should hold light practices so our stars don't get worn out as well.

Actually last year by mid-season Doc was foregoing practices at times so as not to wear out his veterans.

  Almost every contender does this, not just the Celts. The big 3 had plenty in the tank for the playoffs last year.

I am not saying they didn't have a lot in the tank. I was just pointing out to Sweet17(Pete) that in fact the Celtics did lighten up their practice schedule so as to keep the troops fresh. He was the one that was sarcastically saying that the Celtics should lighten practices so as to not wear out the team. I was just letting him know that that already does happen, as it does on many teams, as you pointed out.

[Chris]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

[Chris]

They'll certainly try to get someone like McDyess or Joe Smith, and veterans of that caliber will help.  But those guys won't defend Bynum any better than BBD will.  What they CAN do (as proven during their many years in the league) is hit the clutch mid-range jumper.  That is something BBD has not shown he can do.  Neither can Powe or Perkins.

I really don't see any player likely to come available on the open market who can defend the post better than BBD.  Ainge went after Przybilla over the off-season; maybe he can try again.  But Przybilla won't come cheap.

 

And in the C's defense, they really don't need their backup Center to be able to cover someone like Bynum one on one.  They basically would do what they did with Big Baby in the finals last year on Gasol (who is just as big, and a better post player at this point in his career).  Big Baby will use his bulk to keep them from getting deep position in the post, and then when they catch the ball, he will get in close, and not give them room to make any move, but a long, off balance turn-around jump shot.  If they try to make a move towards the center of the court, KG will be waiting there to cut them off and challenge any shot. 

[nickagneta]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

Who says that the player we needed to pick up would have had to have been big. I just named two players earlier as samples and not specifically them but what about these players:

Matt Barnes - signed for vet minimum
Mickael Pietrus - signed for MLE. If we had used MLE on Pietrus we could have floated the LLE to Eddie House.
Theo Ratliff - signed for vet minimum
Antoine Wright - signed $1.8 million per
Roger Mason - signed for $3.7 million per. Could have used part of MLE for Mason, not signed Tony, used LLE on Eddie.
Francisco Elson - signed for LLE
Trevor Ariza - signed for $3.1 million. Could have used part of MLE and used LLE on Eddie.


That's just a quick example of some of the stuff they might have been able to try that would have made this club better, IMO, instead of using the LLE on POB. Of course this would have taken some planning ahead to do and it seemed Danny's plan all along was wait to see on Posey and then bring in Eddie and Tony if he didn't get Posey. But the LLE could definitely have been better spent if some thought and creativity was used from the moment the off season began.

[Chris]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

Who says that the player we needed to pick up would have had to have been big. I just named two players earlier as samples and not specifically them but what about these players:

Matt Barnes - signed for vet minimum
Mickael Pietrus - signed for MLE. If we had used MLE on Pietrus we could have floated the LLE to Eddie House.
Theo Ratliff - signed for vet minimum
Antoine Wright - signed $1.8 million per
Roger Mason - signed for $3.7 million per. Could have used part of MLE for Mason, not signed Tony, used LLE on Eddie.
Francisco Elson - signed for LLE
Trevor Ariza - signed for $3.1 million. Could have used part of MLE and used LLE on Eddie.


That's just a quick example of some of the stuff they might have been able to try that would have made this club better, IMO, instead of using the LLE on POB. Of course this would have taken some planning ahead to do and it seemed Danny's plan all along was wait to see on Posey and then bring in Eddie and Tony if he didn't get Posey. But the LLE could definitely have been better spent if some thought and creativity was used from the moment the off season began.

First off, we don't know that the LLE was used on POB.  I have seen his salary listed as both LLE level, as well as Vet minimum.  ESPN's trade machine actually has him listed as making the vet minimum.

I am not going to get into specifics with those players, but I would argue that all of them were either overpriced (or unattainable based on being RFA), gone before we knew what was going to happen with Posey, or simply not that good.

[crownsy]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

Who says that the player we needed to pick up would have had to have been big. I just named two players earlier as samples and not specifically them but what about these players:

Matt Barnes - signed for vet minimum
Mickael Pietrus - signed for MLE. If we had used MLE on Pietrus we could have floated the LLE to Eddie House.
Theo Ratliff - signed for vet minimum
Antoine Wright - signed $1.8 million per
Roger Mason - signed for $3.7 million per. Could have used part of MLE for Mason, not signed Tony, used LLE on Eddie.
Francisco Elson - signed for LLE
Trevor Ariza - signed for $3.1 million. Could have used part of MLE and used LLE on Eddie.


That's just a quick example of some of the stuff they might have been able to try that would have made this club better, IMO, instead of using the LLE on POB. Of course this would have taken some planning ahead to do and it seemed Danny's plan all along was wait to see on Posey and then bring in Eddie and Tony if he didn't get Posey. But the LLE could definitely have been better spent if some thought and creativity was used from the moment the off season began.

First off, we don't know that the LLE was used on POB.  I have seen his salary listed as both LLE level, as well as Vet minimum.  ESPN's trade machine actually has him listed as making the vet minimum.

I am not going to get into specifics with those players, but I would argue that all of them were either overpriced (or unattainable based on being RFA), gone before we knew what was going to happen with Posey, or simply not that good.

alot of them are unrealistic too. 3 of those guys (ariza, wright, mason) all made it known that they had a select list of teams.

also, the only guys on thier who's worth anything to a championship team are ratliff and ariza, both of whom were unavalible. Ariza said early on he was going back to LA, and ratliff wasen't exactly thrilled with being treated as a living expiring contract here, i doubt he ever woul have resigned. plus, he kind sucks.

[BballTim]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

Who says that the player we needed to pick up would have had to have been big. I just named two players earlier as samples and not specifically them but what about these players:

Matt Barnes - signed for vet minimum
Mickael Pietrus - signed for MLE. If we had used MLE on Pietrus we could have floated the LLE to Eddie House.
Theo Ratliff - signed for vet minimum
Antoine Wright - signed $1.8 million per
Roger Mason - signed for $3.7 million per. Could have used part of MLE for Mason, not signed Tony, used LLE on Eddie.
Francisco Elson - signed for LLE
Trevor Ariza - signed for $3.1 million. Could have used part of MLE and used LLE on Eddie.


That's just a quick example of some of the stuff they might have been able to try that would have made this club better, IMO, instead of using the LLE on POB. Of course this would have taken some planning ahead to do and it seemed Danny's plan all along was wait to see on Posey and then bring in Eddie and Tony if he didn't get Posey. But the LLE could definitely have been better spent if some thought and creativity was used from the moment the off season began.

  I don't think that Ratliff or Ariza were really on the market. But Danny and Doc (who I'm pretty sure ran the free agent workouts) expected to ba able to get some contribution from POB at some point. But I don't think that going for yet another wing player and not even attempting to have a 3rd string center would have been a good choice.

  We're not getting killed at our backup wing position. Bringing in a lot of those players would have resulted in a negligible improvement if they resulted in an improvement at all.

[crownsy]

  Who are these superstar backup centers we passed on? This thread was started by listing 2 players that as far as I know aren't even in the league.

This is the key to any argument here.  Who could the C's have signed that would have actually helped them. 

I absolutely hate the philosophy that they just need another 7 footer with experience, no matter how good they are.  It would be a waste of time and money.  As far as I was concerned they had two options.  Find someone who they are absolutely sure would have cracked the regular rotation (the only guys who would qualify for that are Thomas and Diop...and I don't think the C's had a realistic shot at either of them), or take a chance on a young guy, who has the potential to be a contributor with some work, and can be an extra body in practice.

Who says that the player we needed to pick up would have had to have been big. I just named two players earlier as samples and not specifically them but what about these players:

Matt Barnes - signed for vet minimum
Mickael Pietrus - signed for MLE. If we had used MLE on Pietrus we could have floated the LLE to Eddie House.
Theo Ratliff - signed for vet minimum
Antoine Wright - signed $1.8 million per
Roger Mason - signed for $3.7 million per. Could have used part of MLE for Mason, not signed Tony, used LLE on Eddie.
Francisco Elson - signed for LLE
Trevor Ariza - signed for $3.1 million. Could have used part of MLE and used LLE on Eddie.


That's just a quick example of some of the stuff they might have been able to try that would have made this club better, IMO, instead of using the LLE on POB. Of course this would have taken some planning ahead to do and it seemed Danny's plan all along was wait to see on Posey and then bring in Eddie and Tony if he didn't get Posey. But the LLE could definitely have been better spent if some thought and creativity was used from the moment the off season began.

  I don't think that Ratliff or Ariza were really on the market. But Danny and Doc (who I'm pretty sure ran the free agent workouts) expected to ba able to get some contribution from POB at some point. But I don't think that going for yet another wing player and not even attempting to have a 3rd string center would have been a good choice.

  We're not getting killed at our backup wing position. Bringing in a lot of those players would have resulted in a negligible improvement if they resulted in an improvement at all.

totally agree, though if in some sort of crazy lakers brain fart ariza ended up here, i would have driven scal to the airport and taken up a collection to pay his buyout.

[cordobes]

Pierce played 44 minutes versus Houston. Our remaining wings would struggle to guard Artest.

What's exactly the "talent" and "skills" that people have seen in POB? Honestly, this is not a cynical question. Is it just a leap of faith? Because Blount had skills I could identify, but I don't see many of those on POB.

He doesn't defend the post. To to it, a player needs strength, footwork, technique, awareness and desire. One can get things done without some of those traits, but not without all of them (except Camby, but Camby can do other things, I guess). He isn't very mobile, he isn't hard hedging on the pick'n'roll and he loses awareness of his man when he does it. He stares too much on the ball and loses vision. He can block shots, but at a much higher rate when refs are not calling defensive 3 seconds strictly. He's slow rotating and doesn't have the awareness to identify his man. On offense, he sets weak screens, doesn't get low and breaks from them too early. I suppose he can run to gain position down low early, but he looks more comfortable playing the trailer and it doesn't matter anyway, as he shies away of physical contact and his defender just have to look at him to push him away from the post. He draws his man to the ball frequently. He isn't very good finding and blocking his man on rebounding and he handles the ball weakly, very poor protection. He doesn't have a good motor and he gets easily frustrated. Just my opinion, but that's what I've seen from him. And what has this to do with laziness? Are all the basketball players who have a tiny skillset lazy and unmotivated?

So, what am I missing here? A couple of jumpers from the elbow  than he can hit or miss, a jump hook from the shot corner and the willingness, and maybe the ability to pass, are the reasons why he has "talent" and "skills"? That's not a lot for a NBA player, no matter his length. Where's the beef? What do you see to say that his main problem is lack of motivation and effort?

[nickagneta]

Pierce played 44 minutes versus Houston. Our remaining wings would struggle to guard Artest.

What's exactly is the "talent" and "skills" that people have seen in POB? Honestly, this is not a cynical question. Is it just a leap of faith? Because Blount had skills I could identify, but I don't see many of those on POB.

He doesn't defend the post. To to it, a player needs strength, footwork, technique, awareness and desire. One can get things done without some of those traits, but not without all of them (except Camby, but Camby can do other things, I guess). He isn't very mobile, he isn't hard hedging on the pick'n'roll and he loses awareness of his man when he does it. He stares too much on the ball and loses vision. He can block shots, but at a much higher rate when refs are not calling defensive 3 seconds strictly. He's slow rotating and doesn't have the awareness to identify his man. On offense, he sets weak screens, doesn't get low and breaks from them too early. I suppose he can run to gain position down low early, but he looks more comfortable playing the trailer and it doesn't matter anyway, as he shies away of physical contact and his defender just have to look at him to push him away from the post. He draws his man to the ball frequently. He isn't very good finding and blocking his man on rebounding and he handles the ball weakly, very poor protection. He doesn't have a good motor and he gets easily frustrated. Just my opinion, but that's what I've seen from him. And what has this to do with laziness? Are all the basketball players who have a tiny skillset lazy and unmotivated?

So, what am I missing here? A couple of jumpers from the elbow  than he can hit or miss, a jump hook from the shot corner and the willingness, and maybe the ability to pass, are the reasons why he has "talent" and "skills"? That's not a lot for a NBA player, no matter his length. Where's the beef? What do you see to say that his main problem is lack of motivation and effort?

And if Cordobes is right, and the more I watch this guy and the more I see him fall down the rotational chart, the more I am convinced I am, then Danny messed up giving this kid what he did.

Although some of the examples above might have been pipe dreams are you saying that a Matt Barnes wouldn't have helped more this year than a POB? You can pick apart every scenario I give you but CoachBo is right in a way in that Danny's off season wasn't very well planned out and after it blew up on him he reached and maybe reached bad.

There were a bunch of other scenarios and players out there that if Danny had decided to put a time frame on the Posey
negotiations instead of hanging around til the very end and being used as a bargaining chip against the Hornets to get Posey another year, then we may actually have a 10 and 11th player on the bench that would be being used right now.

[BudweiserCeltic]

What Danny gave POB was cheap change, stop making a big deal out of it.

Since we're throwing accusations around, whose to say that Danny didn't offer anything to Matt Barnes? Is there some evidence of that? Could it be possible that he wanted to play more in Phoenix? I don't know, but if there's some article that says particularly that Danny never considered nor made an offer to him, let me know... I don't remember reading one. I for one would've loved to have Barnes, and got mad at not getting him for the league min. But with that said, I don't remember reading that Ainge had no interest in him. Even so, I remember some strong sentiments against the guy from some posters here.

Also, signing POB wouldn't have prevented signing some wing like Barnes, so I don't see the "either or" scenarios you're talking about as it concerns POB.

As I said before, POB is more of adding depth to the position more than looking for a suitable back-up. Right after signing the dude, Ainge still felt he needed to get more help for the position. So, that POB is "falling down the charts" tells me nothing as far as a "miscalculation from Ainge" goes.

I really don't understand all these "sky is falling" posts as it concerns our bench. From what I've seen, the bench are the ones that have kept us in games or gotten us back in games so far. Most of our problems have come with our starters on the floor. And I know "we" all want to put blame on the Tony's and the POB's, but our main problem (as far as bench goes) has come from the PG position. Yes, I'm looking at you House...