Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year

[wdleehi]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posy 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal and better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

You forgot he opens up more room for the three stars to do their things on offense.  And he was the 2nd big SF defender to throw at Lebron.  Sure, Pierce did a better job on Lebron, Posey still helped by using his size and strength to keep Lebron from getting comfortable. 

[BballTim]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posey 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal or better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

  It looks like, whether you look at PER allowed, on court/off court, or raw defensive efficiency Tony was significantly better than Posey. He also gets more blocks and steals, although neither get a ton in either category.

[Roy Hobbs]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posey 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal or better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

  It looks like, whether you look at PER allowed, on court/off court, or raw defensive efficiency Tony was significantly better than Posey. He also gets more blocks and steals, although neither get a ton in either category.

And yet, Doc was playing Posey in high-leverage defensive situations, while Tony sat on the bench.  Boy, he really *is* a terrible coach.

[BballTim]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posey 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal or better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

  It looks like, whether you look at PER allowed, on court/off court, or raw defensive efficiency Tony was significantly better than Posey. He also gets more blocks and steals, although neither get a ton in either category.

And yet, Doc was playing Posey in high-leverage defensive situations, while Tony sat on the bench.  Boy, he really *is* a terrible coach.

  Doc played Posey over Allen for a variety of reasons. But that doesn't make what I said untrue.

  But you're right. Doc's coaching in the playoffs was flawless, as was Posey's play.

[ManUp]

Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year...

26 games of play-offs game experience together, Better Chemistry, and a healthy Ray Allen. We won't have to worry about Ray Allen lying about being 100% percent at the start of the season. We'll probably see him improve his consistency and Doc will probably have found a way to better include him into the offense.

The starting five is much more aware of each others strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knows the players that they are playing with can get it done, so trust won't be an issue. There won't be much second guessing each other. Players will be more familiar with each others tendencies. Overall Unbuntu will be stronger than ever.

A better balance between the Big 3 and the role players/supporting cast. The Big 3 now know when to turn it up and take over without having to hesitate. No more of the being afraid to give the ball to the hot hand because the rest of the team isn't getting involved enough. During the play-offs they finally found the balance between team basketball, and leaning on star players. I feel that  this was definitely the key to the team being able to win close games on the road during the play-offs last season. I expect the team to be a lot better when it comes to closing out close games.

[JBcat]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posey 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal or better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

  It looks like, whether you look at PER allowed, on court/off court, or raw defensive efficiency Tony was significantly better than Posey. He also gets more blocks and steals, although neither get a ton in either category.

And yet, Doc was playing Posey in high-leverage defensive situations, while Tony sat on the bench.  Boy, he really *is* a terrible coach.

In Tony's defense Doc did say he was coming around in practice late in the season however he already had his rotation set in his mind for the postseason. 

[Mr October]

Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year...

26 games of play-offs game experience together, Better Chemistry, and a healthy Ray Allen. We won't have to worry about Ray Allen lying about being 100% percent at the start of the season. We'll probably see him improve his consistency and Doc will probably have found a way to better include him into the offense.

The starting five is much more aware of each others strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knows the players that they are playing with can get it done, so trust won't be an issue. There won't be much second guessing each other. Players will be more familiar with each others tendencies. Overall Unbuntu will be stronger than ever.

A better balance between the Big 3 and the role players/supporting cast. The Big 3 now know when to turn it up and take over without having to hesitate. No more of the being afraid to give the ball to the hot hand because the rest of the team isn't getting involved enough. During the play-offs they finally found the balance between team basketball, and leaning on star players. I feel that  this was definitely the key to the team being able to win close games on the road during the play-offs last season. I expect the team to be a lot better when it comes to closing out close games.

yes. TP. You saved me from writing the same thing.

The added experience (particularly in the playoffs) is huuuuuuge! Much more valuable then loosing Posey and  PJ.

[wdleehi]

Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year...

26 games of play-offs game experience together, Better Chemistry, and a healthy Ray Allen. We won't have to worry about Ray Allen lying about being 100% percent at the start of the season. We'll probably see him improve his consistency and Doc will probably have found a way to better include him into the offense.

The starting five is much more aware of each others strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knows the players that they are playing with can get it done, so trust won't be an issue. There won't be much second guessing each other. Players will be more familiar with each others tendencies. Overall Unbuntu will be stronger than ever.

A better balance between the Big 3 and the role players/supporting cast. The Big 3 now know when to turn it up and take over without having to hesitate. No more of the being afraid to give the ball to the hot hand because the rest of the team isn't getting involved enough. During the play-offs they finally found the balance between team basketball, and leaning on star players. I feel that  this was definitely the key to the team being able to win close games on the road during the play-offs last season. I expect the team to be a lot better when it comes to closing out close games.

yes. TP. You saved me from writing the same thing.

The added experience (particularly in the playoffs) is huuuuuuge! Much more valuable then loosing Posey and  PJ.

Who played the most minutes off the bench in the playoffs?  Second most? 

How many minutes have their replacements played in the NBA?

[Sweet17]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey?  What big pressure shot?  What show of leadership? 

He does quite a few things better then Posey.

1) Slashing. TA's drawn foul percentage last year was 17.0% Posey's was 7.8% Clearly Tony is a dramatically BETTER SLASHER. He can create his OWN shot and score. This is something Posey was very poor at.

2) Versatility in his game. Posey is basically just a jump shooter. Nearly 76 percent of his scoring is jump shooting. TA chimed in at 50%

3) Defense. Tony unlike Posey actually kept his guy in check last year. He played most of his minutes at SG - and while there he had  PER of 13.9 and his opponents PER was 11.2 Yes Posey PLAYED Lebron and company but did he actually do a nice job? Danny seemed considerably less impressed then the announcers and some fans. The numbers back up Danny's impressions.

4) Ball-hawking. Stat mavens know that steals are a huge assest for a teams defense. A steal allows you to add a position for your team and take away from your opponent. They are far more valuable then rebounds and assists. A ball hawk like Tony Allen can add alot of value to your team.

Posey does several things better then TA - namely shoot the three ball (in clutch situations) and he rebounds better. He is also I think more composed. I think he is a nice player too - and I wouldn't have been crying if he came back.

But the truth of the matter is that this is a nice opportunity for TA to show his stuff. Danny felt that ponying up the money for a Posey a guy who is likely on the downside of his career (especially at the END of his contract) - when you have an equal and perhaps superior player in your stable was a waste.

I will say it again. Healthy TA is a better player then this current version of Posey. Posey was clutch - and undervalued on the open market. But he did have the reputation of being something of knucklehead and underachiever before he came to us. That's why we were able to snag him cheap.

Now his value has gone through the roof. I fully expect TA to suffer the same fate. I franky don't understand the TA hate. He was injured last year but just the year before he averaged 11.5 ppg on .515 shooting with 1.5 steals per game. That's not too shabby - and healthy he would be doing better then that.

Stick TA on a bad team - and I think he would put up 15 to 20 points per game. We are lucky to have him at such a low price. It's only injuries that held him back. As for the clutch 3 point shooting..

We are just going to have some clutch steals and some clutch drives out of TA instead of those clutch 3s. There is more then one way to skin a cat..

Pete



 

[Redz]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey?  What big pressure shot?  What show of leadership? 

He does quite a few things better then Posey.

1) Slashing. TA's drawn foul percentage last year was 17.0% Posey's was 7.8% Clearly Tony is a dramatically BETTER SLASHER. He can create his OWN shot and score. This is something Posey was very poor at.

2) Versatility in his game. Posey is basically just a jump shooter. Nearly 76 percent of his scoring is jump shooting. TA chimed in at 50%

3) Defense. Tony unlike Posey actually kept his guy in check last year. He played most of his minutes at SG - and while there he had  PER of 13.9 and his opponents PER was 11.2 Yes Posey PLAYED Lebron and company but did he actually do a nice job? Danny seemed considerably less impressed then the announcers and some fans. The numbers back up Danny's impressions.

4) Ball-hawking. Stat mavens know that steals are a huge assest for a teams defense. A steal allows you to add a position for your team and take away from your opponent. They are far more valuable then rebounds and assists. A ball hawk like Tony Allen can add alot of value to your team.

Posey does several things better then TA - namely shoot the three ball (in clutch situations) and he rebounds better. He is also I think more composed. I think he is a nice player too - and I wouldn't have been crying if he came back.

But the truth of the matter is that this is a nice opportunity for TA to show his stuff. Danny felt that ponying up the money for a Posey a guy who is likely on the downside of his career (especially at the END of his contract) - when you have an equal and perhaps superior player in your stable was a waste.

I will say it again. Healthy TA is a better player then this current version of Posey. Posey was clutch - and undervalued on the open market. But he did have the reputation of being something of knucklehead and underachiever before he came to us. That's why we were able to snag him cheap.

Now his value has gone through the roof. I fully expect TA to suffer the same fate. I franky don't understand the TA hate. He was injured last year but just the year before he averaged 11.5 ppg on .515 shooting with 1.5 steals per game. That's not too shabby - and healthy he would be doing better then that.

Stick TA on a bad team - and I think he would put up 15 to 20 points per game. We are lucky to have him at such a low price. It's only injuries that held him back. As for the clutch 3 point shooting..

We are just going to have some clutch steals and some clutch drives out of TA instead of those clutch 3s. There is more then one way to skin a cat..

Pete

Looking at stats for Tony from last year is tough.  He went long stretches without playing significant, meaningful minutes. 

Steals are an important facet.  They do indeed add a possession.  Tony, however, averaged .8 steals and 1.4 turnovers.  He negates any defensive positives with offensive negligence more often than not.

Anyhow, stats be [dang]ed.  Posey's a more important player.  They did the right thing not giving him what the Hornets did, but they are not a better team in the short run with TA getting his minutes. 

I hope I'm wrong.  I've been infatuated by TA many times and disappointed many more times.

[drza44]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey?  What big pressure shot?  What show of leadership? 

He does quite a few things better then Posey.

1) Slashing. TA's drawn foul percentage last year was 17.0% Posey's was 7.8% Clearly Tony is a dramatically BETTER SLASHER. He can create his OWN shot and score. This is something Posey was very poor at.

2) Versatility in his game. Posey is basically just a jump shooter. Nearly 76 percent of his scoring is jump shooting. TA chimed in at 50%

3) Defense. Tony unlike Posey actually kept his guy in check last year. He played most of his minutes at SG - and while there he had  PER of 13.9 and his opponents PER was 11.2 Yes Posey PLAYED Lebron and company but did he actually do a nice job? Danny seemed considerably less impressed then the announcers and some fans. The numbers back up Danny's impressions.

4) Ball-hawking. Stat mavens know that steals are a huge assest for a teams defense. A steal allows you to add a position for your team and take away from your opponent. They are far more valuable then rebounds and assists. A ball hawk like Tony Allen can add alot of value to your team.

Posey does several things better then TA - namely shoot the three ball (in clutch situations) and he rebounds better. He is also I think more composed. I think he is a nice player too - and I wouldn't have been crying if he came back.

But the truth of the matter is that this is a nice opportunity for TA to show his stuff. Danny felt that ponying up the money for a Posey a guy who is likely on the downside of his career (especially at the END of his contract) - when you have an equal and perhaps superior player in your stable was a waste.

I will say it again. Healthy TA is a better player then this current version of Posey. Posey was clutch - and undervalued on the open market. But he did have the reputation of being something of knucklehead and underachiever before he came to us. That's why we were able to snag him cheap.

Now his value has gone through the roof. I fully expect TA to suffer the same fate. I franky don't understand the TA hate. He was injured last year but just the year before he averaged 11.5 ppg on .515 shooting with 1.5 steals per game. That's not too shabby - and healthy he would be doing better then that.

Stick TA on a bad team - and I think he would put up 15 to 20 points per game. We are lucky to have him at such a low price. It's only injuries that held him back. As for the clutch 3 point shooting..

We are just going to have some clutch steals and some clutch drives out of TA instead of those clutch 3s. There is more then one way to skin a cat..

Pete

Looking at stats for Tony from last year is tough.  He went long stretches without playing significant, meaningful minutes. 

Steals are an important facet.  They do indeed add a possession.  Tony, however, averaged .8 steals and 1.4 turnovers.  He negates any defensive positives with offensive negligence more often than not.

Anyhow, stats be [dang]ed.  Posey's a more important player.  They did the right thing not giving him what the Hornets did, but they are not a better team in the short run with TA getting his minutes. 

I hope I'm wrong.  I've been infatuated by TA many times and disappointed many more times.

I tend to look at it more that the Cs are a better team in the short run due to the improvements elsewhere (chemistry, battle tested, young guys maturing into their roles) and that the Posey-to-Allen swap isn't the factor that would change their fortunes too extremely in either direction.  But I don't see why Allen couldn't have an impact similar to Posey's last season, but as Pete pointed out it would just be done in a different way.

[Sweet17]

Looking at stats for Tony from last year is tough.  He went long stretches without playing significant, meaningful minutes.

True. But if we look at the year prior to last year they are even better.

Steals are an important facet.  They do indeed add a possession.  Tony, however, averaged .8 steals and 1.4 turnovers.  He negates any defensive positives with offensive negligence more often than no

I don't believe in such simplistic stat arithimetic. A guy like TA is going to handle the ball a great deal more then Posey would have. So of course he makes more turnovers off on his ball handling. As I pointed out though he also creates more shots.

Doc can make this work for us. It's a fair trade off. A guy like Pierce is a good example of this. Pierce turns the ball over ALOT - mostly trying to do too much with his ball handling (which is actually quite good) but he also creates shots and creates opportunities for others.

In many ways Allen is more suited to be a bench guy then Posey was. Posey was the kind of guy who could really be deadly with the starters, IMHO. You left him open on the wing and he was just money when it really counted. But TA is the kind of guy that could pull a Ricky Davis and lead a 'second unit.

He can play like a mini Dwayne Wade/Ron Artest out there best case scenario. They really are different players. I don't think we have seen the best of Tony Allen.

Pete

[BballTim]

Looking at stats for Tony from last year is tough.  He went long stretches without playing significant, meaningful minutes. 

  This isn't really true. He averaged 18 minutes a game over 75 games. He played 10 or more minutes in about 65 games.

[Mr October]

Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year...

26 games of play-offs game experience together, Better Chemistry, and a healthy Ray Allen. We won't have to worry about Ray Allen lying about being 100% percent at the start of the season. We'll probably see him improve his consistency and Doc will probably have found a way to better include him into the offense.

The starting five is much more aware of each others strengths and weaknesses. Everyone knows the players that they are playing with can get it done, so trust won't be an issue. There won't be much second guessing each other. Players will be more familiar with each others tendencies. Overall Unbuntu will be stronger than ever.

A better balance between the Big 3 and the role players/supporting cast. The Big 3 now know when to turn it up and take over without having to hesitate. No more of the being afraid to give the ball to the hot hand because the rest of the team isn't getting involved enough. During the play-offs they finally found the balance between team basketball, and leaning on star players. I feel that  this was definitely the key to the team being able to win close games on the road during the play-offs last season. I expect the team to be a lot better when it comes to closing out close games.

yes. TP. You saved me from writing the same thing.

The added experience (particularly in the playoffs) is huuuuuuge! Much more valuable then loosing Posey and  PJ.

Who played the most minutes off the bench in the playoffs?  Second most? 

How many minutes have their replacements played in the NBA?

And like last year, I'm sure the C's will fill the gap with a mid season acquisition or 2. This team will be fine. Their collective confidence and chemistry will be huge.

Even without (the at the time out of shape) PJ Brown the C's were a 66 win team. The loss of Posey is big, but not the end of the world.

Anyway, the bench we see today will be different than the bench we see in the playoffs.

[cordobes]

What has TA done in his NBA career to be considered close to being as good as Posey? 

Well, Tony does do *some* things better than Posey.  For instance:

Turnovers per 36 minutes:  Tony 2.9, Posey 1.3
Personal fouls per 36 minutes: Tony 4.4, Posey 3.6

Sure, Posey is a much more efficient scorer, an equal or better defender, and a better rebounder.  Still, Tony's penchant for doing things that hurt the team puts him over the top.

  It looks like, whether you look at PER allowed, on court/off court, or raw defensive efficiency Tony was significantly better than Posey. He also gets more blocks and steals, although neither get a ton in either category.

On the other hand, if you look at the games, Posey was significantly better than Allen, even if you don't factor the defensive versatility.

Danny felt that ponying up the money for a Posey a guy who is likely on the downside of his career (especially at the END of his contract) - when you have an equal and perhaps superior player in your stable was a waste.

I will say it again. Healthy TA is a better player then this current version of Posey.

So, why has Ainge offered Posey a 3year/full-MLE deal and was ready to let Tony Allen walk away for nothing if Allen is at least an equal or even a superior player? You should be very worried about our GM and his evaluation skills. 

He does quite a few things better then Posey.

3) Defense. Tony unlike Posey actually kept his guy in check last year. He played most of his minutes at SG - and while there he had  PER of 13.9 and his opponents PER was 11.2 Yes Posey PLAYED Lebron and company but did he actually do a nice job? Danny seemed considerably less impressed then the announcers and some fans. The numbers back up Danny's impressions.

PER and opponent PER are a terrible way of evaluating defensive quality as well as on/off court points allowed, except for players in very similar situations. Posey took frequently the most difficult defensive assignment, played in crunch time, against the opponent starters, etc. Tony played a lot of garbage time.


A classic example:

Bruce Bowen
Opp. PER  16.3
net PER  -8.2
On court/Off court -1.8

Michael Finley
Opp. PER  14.3
net PER  -1.1
On court/Off court 0

Who is the better defender?