Why the Celtics could conceivably be a better overall team this year

[TradeProposalDude]

I'm not writing this in stone, but don't be surprised to see it happen anyways. This year's Celtics team has more depth and more importantly, young legs.

Walker, Giddens, and a healthier and more confident Tony Allen will easily be able to replicate the production and impact Posey brought to the Celtics last year. You can even add Darius Miles to the equation.

In fact, they should surpass it. All three of these guys have the ability to be better than Posey as an all around player. It's really just a matter of honing their God given skills and taking it to the next level. With the amount of competition for a limited amount of minutes, you will see each and every one of these guys giving their all. But still, Tony Allen should be the captain of the 2nd unit, as Doc has expressed since Posey's departure, and Giddens and Walker should be battling for PT as well.

The most important factor is that this team will be able to run in spurts. I feel like one of the few major weaknesses our title bound team had was a lack of transition game when the outside shot wasn't going in. That's what it is so important to have one or two guys on the court at all time who play above the rim. The aforementioned guys should bring a plethora of energy, intensity, and a threat to take it to the hoop when there are odd man rushes. Last year's Celtics team, for all its strengths, never really had that.

The thing we lose with not having Posey out there is three point shooting. Hopefully Ray Allen can be more consistent this year, but if not, yeah we are more vulnerable in that regard. Outside shooting is a huge reason why we were so successful, and often times we relied heavily on the three point shot. But the Celtics unlike last year now have more options to score and in more ways. That's my main point.

[papa shuttlesworth]

Even without the new young guys (who I am excited to see), I think this team would be better simply from playing together for a year.  The original plan was to mesh in year one and compete for the title in years two and three.  So we should see improvement in lots of areas: Rondo becoming more consistent and awesome, Doc maybe drawing up more than two plays for Ray Allen, Davis and Powe getting more experienced, Sam Cassell looking more like an alien, etc.

Should be fun.

[Roy Hobbs]

Walker, Giddens, and a healthier and more confident Tony Allen will easily be able to replicate the production and impact Posey brought to the Celtics last year. You can even add Darius Miles to the equation.

I'm not buying it.  They *might* replicate the impact, but "will easily be able to"?  No.  I'm sure Posey's production can be filled (although probably not his efficiency), but I don't think the impact of his leadership, clutch play, toughness, and leadership is going to be easily replaced.

In terms of the team, I don't think they'll win 66 games again, but I do think they'll be more cohesive going into the playoffs.  In terms of their ultimate success, a lot is going to depend on how the young guys play under pressure, and if they can't cut it, what is done about it.  This team could use some more vets akin to P.J. and Posey.  Either way, they'll be fine, but the number of projects and rookies on the roster concerns me a bit.

[wdleehi]

I don't buy it. 

Last years team proved to be the best in the NBA with experience players off the bench. 



This years team is looking to live off potential off the bench this year. 

[LB3533]

Yea, we could be better because our Big 3 and starters will be able to improve on last year's chemistry.

They know the plays, each other's tenancies, and will be able to flow with much ease.

I am not going to depend on our new comers as reasons that we will be better this year. It's not fair to them.

 

[drza44]

I absolutely expect them to be better this year than last.  Everyone last season was in consensus that year two was supposed to be the big one for them, but since they won last year all of a sudden that logic doesn't hold anymore?  Posey was a solid player for them, but I believe his role moving forward is being a bit overrated.  One of the biggest things that he brought to the table was championship experience, showing the team how to win and playing with additional ice in his veins since he already had a ring.  Well, now the whole team has championship experience, and the whole team should have that extra modicum of ice in their veins.

Last season's team needed lots of veteran experience to help them bridge the gap of no experience playing together, and no championship experience among the starters.  This year, after having been through the wars together, is the perfect time for a youth infusion of athleticism off of the bench to help keep the team fresh through the grind of a season as they prepare for another long playoff run.

Barring injury, I wouldn't be surprised at all if these Cs win 70.

[nickagneta]

Just want to echo what has already been said here by others.

- there is no way that 2 rookies, Tony Allen, and Darius Miles, who has yet to even earn a guaranteed contract, are going to replicate the entire impact that James Posey had on this team. Best case scenario is let's hope Tony Allen can just give us this year what he gave the team last year and that the other three actually produce something, anything. I think the rooks will be spending most of their time playing NBDL ball or riding pine. 15 players on the roster, only 12 can dress. That spells N.B.D.L. to me.

- I completely disagree about the need for more transition offense and players that play above the rim. Over the last 10 years there have been exactly two players on the last ten championship teams that played their game above the rim and were contributors, Kobe and Dwayne Wade. That's it. And honestly, neither the Lakers nor the Heat utilized Kobe or DWade exclusively in that type of play. Outside shooting was as large a part of both of their games as their above the rim games.

NBA champions are no longer made in the likeness of the Jordan Bulls or the Magic Lakers with lots of fastbreak basketball and above the rim antics. Most NBA champions are veteran teams that have offenses and defenses that execute well in the half court sets. That is what the Celtics are. And....they should have gotten players that would assist in that regard this offseason instead of trying to bring in guys that will quicken the pace that have little to no experience.

- So in that regard I don't think the Celtics will be better than last year because the additions to the team are not the type of additions that enhance championship chances. Young and inexperienced is not what was needed. Now, because of the reasons listed above by TPD... another year of cohesiveness, development of Rondo, the better incorporation of Ray Allen into the offense...the Celtics will improve in some areas and take a step back in others. My belief is they will not be as good as last year but will be more than good enough to be back in the Finals and probably be repeating as World Champions again come June 2009.

[CelticsWhat35]

Whether or not they're a better team this year won't really be reflected in W-L record in the regular season.  Last year, they were out to prove a point, and pretty much played every game like it was the playoffs.  Now that they have more familiarity with each other, I think they realize it might be wise to make sure the team is fresh for the playoffs.  Also, the rest of the league improved as well, so 66 wins will be harder to come by.

The Celtics should have no problem making up the stats that were lost with the departure of Posey.  But I'm sure every teammate will tell you, that's not what made him so valuable to the team.  His leadership, experience and overall clutch-playing will be very hard to duplicate.  But guys like Tony Allen, Powe, Davis, Miles, etc. will have to step up in their own ways.

[Kwhit10]

Don't be over optimistic, fresh young legs does not equal production. We knew what Posey could bring, we don't necessarily know what the young guys will bring (rookies to be exact).

[Sweet17]

Just want to echo what has already been said here by others.

- there is no way that 2 rookies, Tony Allen, and Darius Miles, who has yet to even earn a guaranteed contract, are going to replicate the entire impact that James Posey had on this team. Best case scenario is let's hope Tony Allen can just give us this year what he gave the team last year and that the other three actually produce something, anything. I think the rooks will be spending most of their time playing NBDL ball or riding pine. 15 players on the roster, only 12 can dress. That spells N.B.D.L. to me

No way? Care to put some money on it? Before you wager Posey averaged 6.7 ppg and had negative net -11.2 on the court. <g> Posey stepped up big in the playoffs but on some nights in the regular season he gave us next to nothing. He comes in - misses a few threes. That's basically it for him.

TA alone could outproduce him - quite easily. He already has production wise in the NBA. Ignoring the fact that he averaged more points then Posey last year in his injury riddled season (during the regular season)... And we will look past his superior +/- He managed to be the MAN for the C's for an impressive stretch during the C's dark year. I have never seen Posey play like that.

They myth of Posey has been taken to ridiculous heights. It's impossible for the C's to get over it because the C's won a championship with Posey. So no matter what these younger guys do they are kinda in a hole unless the C's repeat.

But Danny made the right choice not overpaying for Posey I think. A guy who was worth what 3 million last year didn't suddenly improve by factor of 2. One clutch playoff run and a guy is suddenly irreplaceable or something. I am not buying it. The OP is correct.
I wouldn't even get into the potential impact of Darius Miles - a guy who has already match or surpassed Posey in his prime. A guy who just oozes talent..
It's not even fair to Posey to pit two guys like that against him. The risk Danny is taking is a health risk. TA is injury prone and we don't know if Miles will be back to his old form. If they are though - it's an absolute win for the C's.

Pete

[Roy Hobbs]

I wouldn't even get into the potential impact of Darius Miles - a guy who has already match or surpassed Posey in his prime. A guy who just oozes talent..

Now, is that talent oozing out of the gigantic hole in his knee, where the cartilage should be?

[MVP]

I don't buy it. 

Last years team proved to be the best in the NBA with experience players off the bench. 



This years team is looking to live off potential off the bench this year. 

But on the other hand, last year Celtics had potential/inexperience in the starting line-up with Rondo and Perk. Now those two players are somewhat tested and proven with a good number of playoff games under their belt and a championship. Even some guys off the bench are more experienced...Powe played 269 minutes in the playoffs last year and Big Baby played 138 minutes. Those two guys should be more ready and reliable come playoff time this year. Lastly, last year we had only 2 guys on the roster with finals experience, right now we have 2/3 of the team with finals experience. So while we lost some experienced guys, the team as a whole will be more experienced heading into the playoffs this year rather then last year.

[nickagneta]

Just want to echo what has already been said here by others.

- there is no way that 2 rookies, Tony Allen, and Darius Miles, who has yet to even earn a guaranteed contract, are going to replicate the entire impact that James Posey had on this team. Best case scenario is let's hope Tony Allen can just give us this year what he gave the team last year and that the other three actually produce something, anything. I think the rooks will be spending most of their time playing NBDL ball or riding pine. 15 players on the roster, only 12 can dress. That spells N.B.D.L. to me

No way? Care to put some money on it? Before you wager Posey averaged 6.7 ppg and had negative net -11.2 on the court. <g> Posey stepped up big in the playoffs but on some nights in the regular season he gave us next to nothing. He comes in - misses a few threes. That's basically it for him.

TA alone could outproduce him - quite easily. He already has production wise in the NBA. Ignoring the fact that he averaged more points then Posey last year in his injury riddled season (during the regular season)... And we will look past his superior +/- He managed to be the MAN for the C's for an impressive stretch during the C's dark year. I have never seen Posey play like that.

They myth of Posey has been taken to ridiculous heights. It's impossible for the C's to get over it because the C's won a championship with Posey. So no matter what these younger guys do they are kinda in a hole unless the C's repeat.

But Danny made the right choice not overpaying for Posey I think. A guy who was worth what 3 million last year didn't suddenly improve by factor of 2. One clutch playoff run and a guy is suddenly irreplaceable or something. I am not buying it. The OP is correct.
I wouldn't even get into the potential impact of Darius Miles - a guy who has already match or surpassed Posey in his prime. A guy who just oozes talent..
It's not even fair to Posey to pit two guys like that against him. The risk Danny is taking is a health risk. TA is injury prone and we don't know if Miles will be back to his old form. If they are though - it's an absolute win for the C's.

Pete

Let's get a couple of things clear. I supported not bringing Posey back at what he wanted, it was too much. Second, I think he is very much replaceable, just not by the current crop of players that Ainge brought in.

Posey averaged 7.4 PPG and 4.4 RPG last year. Tony Allen averaged 6.6 PPG and 2.2 RPG last year. Posey played the fifth most minutes on the team. Posey guarded 3 different positions. Posey had the respect of defenses and properly spaced the floor for the other players because he was a constant 3 point threat. Posey came up clutch numerous times.

With Tony Allen, Patrick O'Bryant, BBD, Leon Powe, Eddie House, and Sam Cassell being higher on the depth chart than either rookie I seriously doubt they will come anywhere near the production in minutes, points and rebounds that Posey gave this team. If either one has half the playing time that Davis got last year, I would be astounded.

Miles is no guarantee in every sense of the word. He doesn't have a guaranteed contract, he isn't a guarantee to make the team, and there is no guarantee that he will even get to the point that his knee will allow him to be effective this year. I have stated many times, I don't think he makes the team. When camp comes to a close and doctors for the team re-examine his knee I think he could be done for.

Now, if what I stated above happens, and given what late first round and second round draft picks usually give championship teams and given that if Miles actually makes this team and becomes a contributor he would be the first player in the history of the world to come back from an injury so bad that doctors declared his knee unable to resume a professional athletic career, and given all that that means there is probably a better than good chance of it happening, that means Tony Allen would have to compensate for the loss of Posey all by himself.

Tony would have to average what he averaged last year and what Posey averaged. Tony Allen would have to average 14 PPG and 6.6 RPG just to make up statistically what Posey gave this team. That's not going to happen. Tony would have to guard PFs, that's not going to happen. Tony would have to suddenly become a clutch player, that's not going to happen. Tony would have to develop a three point shot, that's not going to happen. And I seriously doubt Tony Allen has the leadership capabilities that Posey had that allowed him to pep talk every starter before every game to get them focused and motivated. I just can't see Tony Allen hugging KG and giving him a pep talk in his ear before each game.

And that is why I said that there is no way they replicate the entire package that Posey brought to this team because Posey brought more than just his stats. I didn't want Posey back at the price he wanted either, but I didn't want him replace with these four guys either.

[wdleehi]

I don't buy it. 

Last years team proved to be the best in the NBA with experience players off the bench. 



This years team is looking to live off potential off the bench this year. 

But on the other hand, last year Celtics had potential/inexperience in the starting line-up with Rondo and Perk. Now those two players are somewhat tested and proven with a good number of playoff games under their belt and a championship. Even some guys off the bench are more experienced...Powe played 269 minutes in the playoffs last year and Big Baby played 138 minutes. Those two guys should be more ready and reliable come playoff time this year. Lastly, last year we had only 2 guys on the roster with finals experience, right now we have 2/3 of the team with finals experience. So while we lost some experienced guys, the team as a whole will be more experienced heading into the playoffs this year rather then last year.

67 minutes. 


That's how much playoff experience there is off the bench at SG/SF from last year over 26 games.


TA had another 90 minutes his rookie season over 7 games.  But apparently that wasn't enough to earn more this time around. 

[Michael Anthony]

According to Tony, he is better than Posey - TP for the OP.