O'Bryant Working With Cliff Ray

[Jon]

I have no doubt that POB will improve.  Any 22 year old that works hard will improve.  Centers, like PGs, tend to take a little longer to mature, and many young, lean, tall guys will significantly improve strength and coordination in their early twenties.  Two issues emerge:
1) Will he improve enough to help this team?
2) Don't we need an experienced back-up at the 5 to provide reliable, solid, error-free minutes? 

On this team, the role of back-up 5 should go to an experienced vet who can be relied upon.  Setting up POB in this role is likely a set-up for failure (at least this year) as he will make many mistakes.

Perhaps Leon will provide some C minutes, but I think that's a lot to ask of a guy who has to give up 5 inches to almost anyone he plays.   

C's need (and I think will get) a veteran back-up.   

Good point.  TP for you.  I like the O'Bryant move in the sense that I think he could develop into something more in a year or two and could be a valuable part of the bridge to the post Big Three era.  However, you bring up a good point that he might not be a great fit for this year.  And that doesn't bode well given our other options.  I like Leon and Big Baby, but they are very undersized.  And while I usually take talent over size (that's how Danny got players their caliber so late; many GMS take size over talent), I don't think it's a coincidence that the teams we struggled the most with in the playoffs (Atlanta and Cleveland) had much more length up front than the teams we handled well (Detroit and LA).  If you go back to those two early series, you'll see Powe and Davis (as well as Rondo and others) have trouble finishing around the basket.  So while we can get by in the regular season with Powe/Davis at the backup 5, it's not going to be great for the playoffs. 

Still, O'Bryant could surprise us.  While we all like to praise Davis and Powe, at least part of their success has to do with the fact that opposing defenses don't pay much attention to them when the Big Three are on the court.  If that's the case, O'Bryant should have an easy time getting baskets, allowing him to focus most of his energies on the defensive end. 

[no kidding]

About every three weeks, I feel inclined to make essentially the same point. Ainge says he signed O'Bryant because the Celtic coaches, after having worked him out, enthusiastically wanted him (and I assume that primarily means Clifford Ray and Tom Thibodeau). That means they're personally invested in O'Bryant, and feel strong about his chances of delivering on his potential. That's good enough to make me optimistic about the guy.

[Surferdad]

I've got nothing against POB, but there's several simple facts to keep in mind:

1) It took Perkins FIVE YEARS to be the serviceable center he is today.  (I like Perk, but that's still all he is.)  So don't expect C.Ray to perform miracles overnight.

2)  #1 above is made worse by the fact that POB will not get much playing time, at least not right away.  (This was also part of Perkins' problem early on.)  He certainly is not ahead of Leon Powe in the big man rotation and probably not Glen Davis either.  He might be used in very select situations like against taller centers (Z, Yao, etc.) but otherwise will ride the pine.

3) POB should have shown some potential by now.  I applaud him for waking up to hard work, but I really don't see the necessary talent.

It's very possible that POB shows steady improvement as a Celtic and then becomes trade fodder down the road, just like Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, etc.

I'm not the captain of the POB fan club here, but lets be fair...POB hasn't played enough NBA minutes "show some potential by now." If you aren't on the court you can't make a judgement one way or the other.

What POB did show in the NBADL was very encouraging, particularly rebounding and blocks...so he's definately showed talent when and where he's gotten PT...

I don't think that Nellie-ball is unsuited for him though, he is just as mobile as Biedrins, so the idea that he didn't play because he didn't fit is untrue...more likely it is because Biedrins was getting the time as the primary center and Nellie wanted to use a different type  of center off the bench...POB also wasn't as fundementally sound as Biedrins, so he got beat out for the one role requiring a player of that skill set...

But why didn't he get the minutes and Biedrins did?  If he's just as mobile as Biedrins and would fit Nellie's style I would argue it's a simple matter of talent.  Biedrins is just plain better.  It's as simple as that.  The same thing will occur in Boston, at least for this year.  He won't beat out Powe and Davis for minutes.  Look, I'm not against the move and POB could come around, start working hard, as surprise a few people.  I sincerely hope that's the case.  I just get the feeling that C.Ray is going to take this kid to a certain point, but his maximum upside might not even be quite as good as Kendrick Perkins.  At that point, he becomes trade fodder, but even that is not such a bad thing.  Danny's system of developing talent and then using those developed players to make a more significant move has worked out pretty well.

Oh, and I wouldn't read too much into his D-league showings.

[billysan]

I've got nothing against POB, but there's several simple facts to keep in mind:

1) It took Perkins FIVE YEARS to be the serviceable center he is today.  (I like Perk, but that's still all he is.)  So don't expect C.Ray to perform miracles overnight.

2)  #1 above is made worse by the fact that POB will not get much playing time, at least not right away.  (This was also part of Perkins' problem early on.)  He certainly is not ahead of Leon Powe in the big man rotation and probably not Glen Davis either.  He might be used in very select situations like against taller centers (Z, Yao, etc.) but otherwise will ride the pine.

3) POB should have shown some potential by now.  I applaud him for waking up to hard work, but I really don't see the necessary talent.

It's very possible that POB shows steady improvement as a Celtic and then becomes trade fodder down the road, just like Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, etc.

I'm not the captain of the POB fan club here, but lets be fair...POB hasn't played enough NBA minutes "show some potential by now." If you aren't on the court you can't make a judgement one way or the other.

What POB did show in the NBADL was very encouraging, particularly rebounding and blocks...so he's definately showed talent when and where he's gotten PT...

I don't think that Nellie-ball is unsuited for him though, he is just as mobile as Biedrins, so the idea that he didn't play because he didn't fit is untrue...more likely it is because Biedrins was getting the time as the primary center and Nellie wanted to use a different type  of center off the bench...POB also wasn't as fundementally sound as Biedrins, so he got beat out for the one role requiring a player of that skill set...

But why didn't he get the minutes and Biedrins did?  If he's just as mobile as Biedrins and would fit Nellie's style I would argue it's a simple matter of talent.   Biedrins is just plain better.  It's as simple as that.  The same thing will occur in Boston, at least for this year.  He won't beat out Powe and Davis for minutes.  Look, I'm not against the move and POB could come around, start working hard, as surprise a few people.  I sincerely hope that's the case.  I just get the feeling that C.Ray is going to take this kid to a certain point, but his maximum upside might not even be quite as good as Kendrick Perkins.  At that point, he becomes trade fodder, but even that is not such a bad thing.  Danny's system of developing talent and then using those developed players to make a more significant move has worked out pretty well.

Oh, and I wouldn't read too much into his D-league showings.

I tried to make this point earlier. POB has a history of poor fundamentals, this has been evident since he was in college. The fact that he was near equal to Biedrins athletically was irrelevant when you factor in Biedrins had him beat coming and going with fundamental basketball skills such as footwork, passing, defense and a host of others.

This is the difference Clifford Ray makes and has made with Al Jefferson and Kendrick Perkins. Both certainly had talent coming into the league, but neither had good fundamentals or a solid foundation of knowledge to build upon when they entered the league. Clifford Ray was a big part of changing that.

As a side note, it has been mentioned widely on other blogs and in articles that in general Euro-foreign players have much better fundamentals coming into the league than many young NBA players, especially those that play little or no college basketball.

To be honest, most of the young one and done guys are drafted on shear potential and outstanding athleticism. It is almost never mentioned that one has exceptional basketball fundamentals.

[cordobes]

To be honest, most of the young one and done guys are drafted on shear potential and outstanding athleticism. It is almost never mentioned that one has exceptional basketball fundamentals.

Because, as you say, they don't have them. Especially frontcourt players. In this rookie class, Hibbert (who is not a one & done) is very solid on fundamentals and I think that will allow him to have a solid NBA career and a decent 1st season. Kevin Love also has good fundamentals - as he's also very talented, he can be a really good basketball player, despite of his relative lack of athleticism.

The thing is that basic fundamentals are mostly a result of habit. For players talented enough to play pro-basketball, all it's need is hard-work (but not fake), time and good coaching. The Warriors, as any other NBA franchise, certainly have a state-of-art developmental coaching team. O'Bryant attended Bradley program - which produced one of the most fundamentally sound players currently in the NBA, Anthony Parker - for 2 years. Also, Biedrins is not the prototypical solid-on-fundamentals European player. He was very raw when he joined the NBA. He has developed mightily under Nellie's guidance (although he's clearly more talented than POB). I put these things together and I come to the conclusion that it's wiser to rely my hope on O'Bryant change of attitude than on Ray's mastery of coaching.

I don't think that Nellie-ball is unsuited for him though, he is just as mobile as Biedrins, so the idea that he didn't play because he didn't fit is untrue...more likely it is because Biedrins was getting the time as the primary center and Nellie wanted to use a different type  of center off the bench...

Nelson signed DJ Mbenga to be the backup center because O'Bryant wasn't giving them guarantees. Nothing related to styles, I think.

[billysan]

To be honest, most of the young one and done guys are drafted on shear potential and outstanding athleticism. It is almost never mentioned that one has exceptional basketball fundamentals.

Because, as you say, they don't have them. Especially frontcourt players. In this rookie class, Hibbert (who is not a one & done) is very solid on fundamentals and I think that will allow him to have a solid NBA career and a decent 1st season. Kevin Love also has good fundamentals - as he's also very talented, he can be a really good basketball player, despite of his relative lack of athleticism.

The thing is that basic fundamentals are mostly a result of habit. For players talented enough to play pro-basketball, all it's need is hard-work (but not fake), time and good coaching. The Warriors, as any other NBA franchise, certainly have a state-of-art developmental coaching team. O'Bryant attended Bradley program - which produced one of the most fundamentally sound players currently in the NBA, Anthony Parker - for 2 years. Also, Biedrins is not the prototypical solid-on-fundamentals European player. He was very raw when he joined the NBA. He has developed mightily under Nellie's guidance (although he's clearly more talented than POB). I put these things together and I come to the conclusion that it's wiser to rely my hope on O'Bryant change of attitude than on Ray's mastery of coaching.

I don't think that Nellie-ball is unsuited for him though, he is just as mobile as Biedrins, so the idea that he didn't play because he didn't fit is untrue...more likely it is because Biedrins was getting the time as the primary center and Nellie wanted to use a different type  of center off the bench...

Nelson signed DJ Mbenga to be the backup center because O'Bryant wasn't giving them guarantees. Nothing related to styles, I think.

Exactly right. The thing is that it sometimes takes a player longer to just 'get it', especially frontcourt players who are often still maturing and developing  physically at 20 years old. This IMO is going to be the case with POB as he as acknowledged his weakness.

As I also said in an earlier post, this is the Golden opportunity for POB and 'if' as he said, hard work was the missing element because he didnt know how hard the NBA would be, then here is his chance. Will he be a Green or a Perkins? Hard work will be the difference.

[BballTim]

I've got nothing against POB, but there's several simple facts to keep in mind:

1) It took Perkins FIVE YEARS to be the serviceable center he is today.  (I like Perk, but that's still all he is.)  So don't expect C.Ray to perform miracles overnight.

2)  #1 above is made worse by the fact that POB will not get much playing time, at least not right away.  (This was also part of Perkins' problem early on.)  He certainly is not ahead of Leon Powe in the big man rotation and probably not Glen Davis either.  He might be used in very select situations like against taller centers (Z, Yao, etc.) but otherwise will ride the pine.

3) POB should have shown some potential by now.  I applaud him for waking up to hard work, but I really don't see the necessary talent.

It's very possible that POB shows steady improvement as a Celtic and then becomes trade fodder down the road, just like Delonte West, Ryan Gomes, etc.

I'm not the captain of the POB fan club here, but lets be fair...POB hasn't played enough NBA minutes "show some potential by now." If you aren't on the court you can't make a judgement one way or the other.

What POB did show in the NBADL was very encouraging, particularly rebounding and blocks...so he's definately showed talent when and where he's gotten PT...

I don't think that Nellie-ball is unsuited for him though, he is just as mobile as Biedrins, so the idea that he didn't play because he didn't fit is untrue...more likely it is because Biedrins was getting the time as the primary center and Nellie wanted to use a different type  of center off the bench...POB also wasn't as fundementally sound as Biedrins, so he got beat out for the one role requiring a player of that skill set...

But why didn't he get the minutes and Biedrins did?  If he's just as mobile as Biedrins and would fit Nellie's style I would argue it's a simple matter of talent.  Biedrins is just plain better.  It's as simple as that.  The same thing will occur in Boston, at least for this year.  He won't beat out Powe and Davis for minutes. 

  If he gets minutes it's not necessarily that he's better than Powe or Davis, but that he's taller. 6'7 or 6'8 backup centers don't always cut it.