The evolution of Tony Allen: 4 years later, he still has "potential"

[BudweiserCeltic]

It's quite easy to have a low turnover rate when all you do is stand in the perimeter and do nothing other than shoot the ball or pass it along. It's also easy when you're only asked to play your position, instead of out of position... especially be a PG when you're clearly not one. It's very rare to find players that drive to the basket constantly and have low turnover rates.

Not saying that Tony is not a turnover machine, but he has improved in this aspect and aside from those head scratching moments, I'd take his turnovers trying to create something while driving to the basket over players that do nothing aside from standing around in the perimeter.

He hasn't played much PG at all AND his shortcomings are the items he embraces on a court.  The guy is a turnover machine because he is too undisciplined to play within his own shortcomings.   This isn't a guy that you embrace and want to have a major role.  The fact that he is our 6th man is alarming to me especially with the resigning of Eddie House. 

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

[nickagneta]

It's quite easy to have a low turnover rate when all you do is stand in the perimeter and do nothing other than shoot the ball or pass it along. It's also easy when you're only asked to play your position, instead of out of position... especially be a PG when you're clearly not one. It's very rare to find players that drive to the basket constantly and have low turnover rates.

Not saying that Tony is not a turnover machine, but he has improved in this aspect and aside from those head scratching moments, I'd take his turnovers trying to create something while driving to the basket over players that do nothing aside from standing around in the perimeter.

He hasn't played much PG at all AND his shortcomings are the items he embraces on a court.  The guy is a turnover machine because he is too undisciplined to play within his own shortcomings.   This isn't a guy that you embrace and want to have a major role.  The fact that he is our 6th man is alarming to me especially with the resigning of Eddie House. 

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tell me you're not seriously comparing Manu Ginobelli to Tony Allen?

[BudweiserCeltic]

It's quite easy to have a low turnover rate when all you do is stand in the perimeter and do nothing other than shoot the ball or pass it along. It's also easy when you're only asked to play your position, instead of out of position... especially be a PG when you're clearly not one. It's very rare to find players that drive to the basket constantly and have low turnover rates.

Not saying that Tony is not a turnover machine, but he has improved in this aspect and aside from those head scratching moments, I'd take his turnovers trying to create something while driving to the basket over players that do nothing aside from standing around in the perimeter.

He hasn't played much PG at all AND his shortcomings are the items he embraces on a court.  The guy is a turnover machine because he is too undisciplined to play within his own shortcomings.   This isn't a guy that you embrace and want to have a major role.  The fact that he is our 6th man is alarming to me especially with the resigning of Eddie House. 

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tell me you're not seriously comparing Manu Ginobelli to Tony Allen?

I'm not. BUT, Tony Allen should be capable of playing the Manu type role quite well, in a reduced capacity. Just illustrating that being a turnover machine is not the end of the world. Just illustrating that these types of players that constantly take it to the hoop turn the ball quite often, especially when compared with players like Finley and Posey that all they do on offense is stand around the perimeter pretty much.

[Who]

Tony Allen is a rare type of role player. Most teams have nobody (role players) that can create their own shot as well Tony. Nobody who can break down the opposition defense and get into the paint.

So many teams fall into scoring lulls because all their role players can do is hoist up perimeter jumpers .... not just perimeter jump shots but shots that they didn't even create for themselves. Shots that they needed their best players to make for them because they're incapable of getting a good look otherwise. If someone like the Spurs had a player like Tony Allen they'd be a far superior team and much more difficult to defend, instead they continue to go through long scoring droughts year after year.

[blueygreen]

I'm really on the fence about Tony. I love him, and I think there's an excess of hate for him here. I really want to see him do well and I honestly think he can. What's annoyed me is that I've really seen none of that period where he exploded. Does anyone have any tape of games in that period? Or anything from that time? I love to see the good old days

[Brickowski]

Tony's injury set him back.

Look at a player like Anthony Parker, who is way better than Posey. Parker was a complete flop.  He went to Europe, learned how to play, and came back at age 29 as an excellent player.

Will Tomny Allen be a late bloomer?  I don't know, but I wouldn't rule it out.

[Roy Hobbs]

Tony Allen is a rare type of role player. Most teams have nobody (role players) that can create their own shot as well Tony. Nobody who can break down the opposition defense and get into the paint.

So many teams fall into scoring lulls because all their role players can do is hoist up perimeter jumpers .... not just perimeter jump shots but shots that they didn't even create for themselves. Shots that they needed their best players to make for them because they're incapable of getting a good look otherwise. If someone like the Spurs had a player like Tony Allen they'd be a far superior team and much more difficult to defend, instead they continue to go through long scoring droughts year after year.

I don't buy this.  Yes, if Tony was the player we all want him to be, that would be the case.  However, right now, he's not there.  This team definitely needed a guy who could create his own shot last season, and Tony wasn't that guy.

After reading all the superlatives for Tony on the blog over the last couple of weeks, I am absolutely shocked that Danny initially declined his qualifying offer.  How could he risk letting such a rare talent go, for the pittance of $2.7 million or so?  Oh, that's right...  because Tony isn't nearly as good as folks on here suggest he is.

Let's hope, after a year of recovery, that he morphs into the "poor man's D. Wade" (lol) that many on here think he can become.

[timepiece33]

Tony Allen is a rare type of role player. Most teams have nobody (role players) that can create their own shot as well Tony. Nobody who can break down the opposition defense and get into the paint.

Oh please.  Tony's turnover rate makes him an inefficient offensive player.   Sure, he has the ability to occasionally breakdown a defense when he's not giving the opposition the ball because he doesn't have the ball skills to do this on a consistent basis.

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

I really wonder where you're taking your numbers from because Manu's turnover rate was higher than Tony's.  The point of the comparison was explained in a follow-up post, look a couple posts up.

Just because someone has a high turnover rate doesn't make him useless as it's being alluded to, and to compare these types of players to players that all they do is stand around in the perimeter is unfair.

[KungPoweChicken]

It has become

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

I really wonder where you're taking your numbers from because Manu's turnover rate was higher than Tony's.
 


It has become apparent that it is personal between timepiece33 and Tony Allen.

[TripleOT]

I think the problem most of Tony's critics have with him come from the mental, rather than the physical, side of the game.  He hasn't made much progress on that end in four years, and it tends to be very frustrating.

I certainly have been frustrated by TA's numerous mental mistakes, but I also believe that players coming back from injury press, and pressing causes mistakes, both physical and mental. 

Although he played a very limited role in the playoffs, TA had only one turnover in 65 minutes.  With Tony on the offensive end, less is more. When he just concentrates on finishing, and driving to the hook with as few dribbles as possible, he's effective. 

I'm hoping that TA has learned a lot this past year, and will step up in the sixth man role while being fully healthy in the 09 season.  If he can be 80% of the player he was in 08 before the knee injury, and can cut down the mental mistakes a bit, the Cs will have decent value off the bench from him.   

[Roy Hobbs]

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

I really wonder where you're taking your numbers from because Manu's turnover rate was higher than Tony's.  The point of the comparison was explained in a follow-up post, look a couple posts up.

Just because someone has a high turnover rate doesn't make him useless as it's being alluded to, and to compare these types of players to players that all they do is stand around in the perimeter is unfair.

I'm not sure where timepiece gets his numbers from, but basketball-reference has something called "turnover rate", an estimate of turnovers per 100 possessions.

Tony's was 18.9, meaning he turned the ball over roughly 19% of the time.  Manu's was 14.5; that's a pretty significant difference.

[Who]

Tony's turnover problems are exaggerated. He averaged only 1.9 turnovers in 30 minutes a night while starting last season. That's hardly a problem.

Tony is a player that suffers from irregular minutes more than anything else. He's just one of those players that doesn't handle not having consistent minutes well. He doesn't play well in short stretches, he needs time to find his groove on the floor. That's just the type of player he is. He'll always look better in more minutes and worse in low minutes.

His turnover numbers on the season were the same as JR Smith (1.5 in 18 versus 1.5 in 19 minutes) and better than JR when Tony was starting (getting consistent minutes). It just isn't that large of a problem. It's a negative no doubt but it's not that big of an issue.

The man has a true shooting percentage of 55% so he's a long way from being an inefficient scorer.

His passing in traffic has come on leaps and bounds, he displays great vision and a knack for finding players for easy shots around the rim on drives. The rest of the time his passing is best described as functional which is fine.

Then you add in the defensive ability ....

[BudweiserCeltic]

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

I really wonder where you're taking your numbers from because Manu's turnover rate was higher than Tony's.  The point of the comparison was explained in a follow-up post, look a couple posts up.

Just because someone has a high turnover rate doesn't make him useless as it's being alluded to, and to compare these types of players to players that all they do is stand around in the perimeter is unfair.

I'm not sure where timepiece gets his numbers from, but basketball-reference has something called "turnover rate", an estimate of turnovers per 100 possessions.

Tony's was 18.9, meaning he turned the ball over roughly 19% of the time.  Manu's was 14.5; that's a pretty significant difference.

I see, I'm focusing in turning the ball over in a per minute basis. Also, looking at how they do the formula, Ginobili's significantly higher FGA and FTA skews the stat in his favor.

Doesn't seem like a real turnover rate formula... it seems quite flawed, mainly in regards to what they count a possession or not.

Still, it doesn't negate that both players are in fact turnover machines. I mean, if you believe that stat he has a better turnover rate than Rondo... do you really believe that?

[blueygreen]

I wonder how may Spurs fans hate having Ginobili as their sixth man given that he's a turnover machine himself.

Tony Allen has a Turnover Rate 35% higher and a PER that is 127% lower than Manu.   What was the basis of the comparison?

I really wonder where you're taking your numbers from because Manu's turnover rate was higher than Tony's.  The point of the comparison was explained in a follow-up post, look a couple posts up.

Just because someone has a high turnover rate doesn't make him useless as it's being alluded to, and to compare these types of players to players that all they do is stand around in the perimeter is unfair.

I'm not sure where timepiece gets his numbers from, but basketball-reference has something called "turnover rate", an estimate of turnovers per 100 possessions.

Tony's was 18.9, meaning he turned the ball over roughly 19% of the time.  Manu's was 14.5; that's a pretty significant difference.

14.5 * 1.35 = 19.58 so it approximately checks out