The evolution of Tony Allen: 4 years later, he still has "potential"

[zerophase]

There's reason's for everything. This rookie season...he was a rookie. The next 2 seasons he was hurt for the most part. After a knee injury, he comes back in the BIG 3 season and does his job as a recovering role player. he had an awesome block on Ginobli (look it up on nba.com, player section under Tony Allen) With Posey gone and no actual addition to that position(besides draft picks) Tony Allen has all the opportunity in the world to prove his 2.5ish million dollar worth in these next 2 seasons. And with him being healthy now, %100, expect him to be great in his new role.

At what point does it go from a reason to an excuse?

for me, about halfway through last year it wnet into excuse land.

i'm willing to extend and olive branch to the "don't pick on the hurt guy!!!" crowd though.

can we agree this is out the window as an excuse for this year?

or will it still be brought up whenever he has a horrid game?

I think the issue here is not potential, but "consistency".  The shot/ shot selection needs some, and so does the ball handling.  He has actualized the potential on many occasions, my favorites include:

Blowing right by Kobe with ease for a lay-up (which I think he missed) in the finals, and a gem three years ago [I think] where he help-defended on a player squaring up on a celtic getting ready to make his move when he reached between the dudes legs and and stole it!  The guy never even saw it coming and then still didn't look like he knew what hit him!

Pierce cut down on the turnovers this year.  As the year went on, "Evil Paul" really cut it out.  could amazing TA play "Evil Tony" out of his system with people depending on him and consistent playing time?  I wanna see it, I want to believe. 

Go Celts!

well you can't really compare tony allen to pierce. pierce cut his turnovers down this year because quite frankly, he handled the ball less.

[BillfromBoston]

2.5 million is very little to invest in a player who can play outstanding defense and has explosive offensive ability at times...

..personally, I think the only thing that holds TA back is TA...mentally, he wasn't over the knee injury, but physically we saw enough plays last season to know his body can still do amazing things...

I think that TA will end up having a very solid season next year, 2 years removed from the knee injury...at his best Tony is a great two-way player, who can lead this team's bench unit in scoring-along with Powe and House...which should make for a nice 2nd unit offensively...

2.5 million people...not a lot to invest in a player who has plausible excuses for his inconsistent development over the past 4 years...

[EJPLAYA]

2.5 million is very little to invest in a player who can play outstanding defense and has explosive offensive ability at times...

..personally, I think the only thing that holds TA back is TA...mentally, he wasn't over the knee injury, but physically we saw enough plays last season to know his body can still do amazing things...

I think that TA will end up having a very solid season next year, 2 years removed from the knee injury...at his best Tony is a great two-way player, who can lead this team's bench unit in scoring-along with Powe and House...which should make for a nice 2nd unit offensively...

2.5 million people...not a lot to invest in a player who has plausible excuses for his inconsistent development over the past 4 years...

Although I think TA at this point was the best available player most likely, I still think TA isn't ever going to be much more than he is right now.

TA is a player who USED to play outstanding (or at least REALLY good)   defense, but due to his injuries only plays good defense. Hopefully he can return to form.

The thing that holds TA down is his lack of Basketball IQ. He tries to do things that he doesn't have the skill set to do. If he had better ball handling skills many of those charges and turnovers wouldn't happen and he would be a lot better player. He just doesn't get it though. He's one of those players who decides they are going to make a certain move no matter what the defense does and then when they don't go for his fake he turns it over or runs them over.

He also somehow has lost his confidence in his outside shooting. Hopefully he can regain that. Before the second injury he started doing a better job of hitting outside shots. We'll see.

All in all he's probably the best thing we are going to get at the money we wanted to spend, so not terrible. If he doesn't return to form we can always add a vet at the deadline.

[liam]

At 6'4 he has to have better handle than he currently has.  I hold my breath every time he touches the ball behind half court or, actually, above half court for that matter.  If he is supposed to be a slashing two guard and a potential backup PG at times, he has to dribble A LOT better!

I mean A LOT BETTER!

Amen. How many times can one man, a pro basketball player, dribble a ball off his foot? I really hope Tony can get it together. He got chances last year but could not play without constant mistakes. Lots of other players got jerked in and out of the lineup( see Posey, House, Rondo at times, Perk at times, Baby, Powe) this year but all were ready to play when there number was called except TA. Hopefully it was just the injury.

[timepiece33]

The thing that holds TA down is his lack of Basketball IQ. He tries to do things that he doesn't have the skill set to do. If he had better ball handling skills many of those charges and turnovers wouldn't happen and he would be a lot better player. He just doesn't get it though. He's one of those players who decides they are going to make a certain move no matter what the defense does and then when they don't go for his fake he turns it over or runs them over.

That propensity is what makes him a liability on the court so far in his career.  I'm not sure if there is a market for an undersized, athletic guard who has an adequate midrange jumper but chooses to drive even though he is a liability with his ball handling. I would have rather had Maurice Evans.  He has a little more range and a lot more common sense.

The one positive is we still have a portion of the MLE to use on Walker and whomever we choose.

[billysan]

I think we will see Tony Allen get a ton of burn in the preseason at the wing. If he plays like he is capable, he will be super trade bait along with Scal's contract. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

The thing that holds TA down is his lack of Basketball IQ. He tries to do things that he doesn't have the skill set to do. If he had better ball handling skills many of those charges and turnovers wouldn't happen and he would be a lot better player. He just doesn't get it though. He's one of those players who decides they are going to make a certain move no matter what the defense does and then when they don't go for his fake he turns it over or runs them over.

That propensity is what makes him a liability on the court so far in his career.  I'm not sure if there is a market for an undersized, athletic guard who has an adequate midrange jumper but chooses to drive even though he is a liability with his ball handling. I would have rather had Maurice Evans.  He has a little more range and a lot more common sense.

The one positive is we still have a portion of the MLE to use on Walker and whomever we choose.

It's quite easy to have a low turnover rate when all you do is stand in the perimeter and do nothing other than shoot the ball or pass it along. It's also easy when you're only asked to play your position, instead of out of position... especially be a PG when you're clearly not one. It's very rare to find players that drive to the basket constantly and have low turnover rates.

Not saying that Tony is not a turnover machine, but he has improved in this aspect and aside from those head scratching moments, I'd take his turnovers trying to create something while driving to the basket over players that do nothing aside from standing around in the perimeter.

[TrueGreen]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

[Roy Hobbs]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

The problem, though, is that on a per minute basis, last year Tony's points, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG% and 3PT% were all down from his rookie season, and his turnovers were up.  The only areas where Tony improved were in FT% and assists.

Next year, at age 27, we'll be hoping that Tony can improve to where he was as a rookie.  I can appreciate the skepticism many are having.

[TrueGreen]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

Last year was a NON year for Tony. His performance last year tells us nothing. The one thing I think he did show was that he could drive to the basket and dish to an open man for an easy score. He did this repeatedly when he got the chance to play.

The problem, though, is that on a per minute basis, last year Tony's points, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG% and 3PT% were all down from his rookie season, and his turnovers were up.  The only areas where Tony improved were in FT% and assists.

Next year, at age 27, we'll be hoping that Tony can improve to where he was as a rookie.  I can appreciate the skepticism many are having.

[BudweiserCeltic]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

The problem, though, is that on a per minute basis, last year Tony's points, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG% and 3PT% were all down from his rookie season, and his turnovers were up.  The only areas where Tony improved were in FT% and assists.

Next year, at age 27, we'll be hoping that Tony can improve to where he was as a rookie.  I can appreciate the skepticism many are having.

It's hard to evaluate and compare you know? How many times did he drive to the basket in his rookie season? Was he coming back from a big injury? Let's not discount the effect of his injury and uncertainty with his body might've had on him turning the ball over.

How many times was he asked to play the point? I don't think it was as often as it was last year. Last year his turnover rate more than doubled when he played the point rather than SG.

Also, his assist to turnover ratio has been improving through the years... that at the least tells me he's making better decisions with the ball.

Fair to say, that Tony Allen is a very unique case and hard to judge based on what he has accomplished in his career.

[Roy Hobbs]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

The problem, though, is that on a per minute basis, last year Tony's points, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG% and 3PT% were all down from his rookie season, and his turnovers were up.  The only areas where Tony improved were in FT% and assists.

Next year, at age 27, we'll be hoping that Tony can improve to where he was as a rookie.  I can appreciate the skepticism many are having.

It's hard to evaluate and compare you know? How many times did he drive to the basket in his rookie season? Was he coming back from a big injury? Let's not discount the effect of his injury and uncertainty with his body might've had on him turning the ball over.

How many times was he asked to play the point? I don't think it was as often as it was last year. Last year his turnover rate more than doubled when he played the point rather than SG.

Also, his assist to turnover ratio has been improving through the years... that at the least tells me he's making better decisions with the ball.

Fair to say, that Tony Allen is a very unique case and hard to judge based on what he has accomplished in his career.

As a rookie, Tony played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  Last season, he played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  If there was a difference, it was a nominal one.

In his rookie season, 60% of Tony's shots were inside.  Last season, 50% of Tony's shots were inside.  Thus, it stands to reason he was actually driving to the hoop more as a rookie, not less.

Neither of the above two is an excuse, then, for Tony's turnovers.  He's still making the same boneheaded plays he was as a rookie, only more so.  If he's ever going to be a reliable player, those are something he needs to remedy.

Last year was a NON year for Tony. His performance last year tells us nothing. The one thing I think he did show was that he could drive to the basket and dish to an open man for an easy score. He did this repeatedly when he got the chance to play.

So, fans should discount all of the bad things (including, presumably, the turnovers, that have been a problem for four seasons), but pay attention to the good things that Tony did.  That sounds like a fair way to evaluate a player.

As Chris and others said above, this season there should be no more excuses for Tony.  He should be completely healed, and he should have a consistent role.  If he doesn't produce, it's not Doc's fault, it's not Danny's, it's not the injuries, etc., etc.  It's Tony.

[BillfromBoston]

TA's been in the league 4 years. Two of them can be subtracted due to injury. 1 can be subtracted due to rookiness. Thus he's really played for about 1 year. If he's healthy and he can forget about his knee we could have a gem. To me he's shown improvement with his limited playing time. He should get more this year. He seems to have worked hard to rehab his knees and I believe he's worked on his game in the off-season when able. And he's surrounded by players who will help him and support him. Let's give him a chance.

The problem, though, is that on a per minute basis, last year Tony's points, rebounds, steals, blocks, FG% and 3PT% were all down from his rookie season, and his turnovers were up.  The only areas where Tony improved were in FT% and assists.

Next year, at age 27, we'll be hoping that Tony can improve to where he was as a rookie.  I can appreciate the skepticism many are having.

It's hard to evaluate and compare you know? How many times did he drive to the basket in his rookie season? Was he coming back from a big injury? Let's not discount the effect of his injury and uncertainty with his body might've had on him turning the ball over.

How many times was he asked to play the point? I don't think it was as often as it was last year. Last year his turnover rate more than doubled when he played the point rather than SG.

Also, his assist to turnover ratio has been improving through the years... that at the least tells me he's making better decisions with the ball.

Fair to say, that Tony Allen is a very unique case and hard to judge based on what he has accomplished in his career.

As a rookie, Tony played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  Last season, he played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  If there was a difference, it was a nominal one.

In his rookie season, 60% of Tony's shots were inside.  Last season, 50% of Tony's shots were inside.  Thus, it stands to reason he was actually driving to the hoop more as a rookie, not less.

Neither of the above two is an excuse, then, for Tony's turnovers.  He's still making the same boneheaded plays he was as a rookie, only more so.  If he's ever going to be a reliable player, those are something he needs to remedy.

Last year was a NON year for Tony. His performance last year tells us nothing. The one thing I think he did show was that he could drive to the basket and dish to an open man for an easy score. He did this repeatedly when he got the chance to play.

So, fans should discount all of the bad things (including, presumably, the turnovers, that have been a problem for four seasons), but pay attention to the good things that Tony did.  That sounds like a fair way to evaluate a player.

As Chris and others said above, this season there should be no more excuses for Tony.  He should be completely healed, and he should have a consistent role.  If he doesn't produce, it's not Doc's fault, it's not Danny's, it's not the injuries, etc., etc.  It's Tony.

..therse are all valid points you bring up Roy, but the Celtics organization has a helluva lot better statistics at its disposal and had the MLE to play with and a choice of "safer" options...the fact that they chose to retain Tony tells me something and it should tell you something too..

This team doesn't make arbitrary decisions...if they signed Tony it was for a reason...let's see what happens

[BudweiserCeltic]

As a rookie, Tony played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  Last season, he played PG in 1% of the team's possessions.  If there was a difference, it was a nominal one.

In his rookie season, 60% of Tony's shots were inside.  Last season, 50% of Tony's shots were inside.  Thus, it stands to reason he was actually driving to the hoop more as a rookie, not less.

Neither of the above two is an excuse, then, for Tony's turnovers.  He's still making the same boneheaded plays he was as a rookie, only more so.  If he's ever going to be a reliable player, those are something he needs to remedy.

How did they arrive at the 1% is what I question from that site since it's quite obvious that some heavy rounding is going on. I wouldn't be surprised if this year Tony had actually played 1.3%+ at the point compared to 0.5% in his rookie year or something along those lines. As far as I remember, Tony hadn't played this much at the point in a season through his whole career.

Percent of type of shots don't tell me much because it doesn't explain the amount of times he drove to towards the hoop. The only thing that helps compare is that they had similar shot attempts, but this year he had more assists and played more minutes so one could argue that he was driving more and dishing this year, so his shot selection doesn't tell the whole story. Another thing to consider is that back then he had his athletism... how many times did his dunking prowess saved him from a tough situation? He didn't have that tool last year.

So we're right were we started, with a lot of unknowns depicting quite a unique situation.

So, fans should discount all of the bad things (including, presumably, the turnovers, that have been a problem for four seasons), but pay attention to the good things that Tony did.  That sounds like a fair way to evaluate a player.

Same as you would evaluate a pitcher in a pitcher friendly park. You take the good things with a grain of salt, and the bad things you pay more attention to as a red flag.  The situation is reversed with Tony... playing through injury or playing through his rehab you should pay more attention to the good things, and the bad things should be taken with a grain of salt, instead of taking it as an absolute as many are doing.

[timepiece33]

It's quite easy to have a low turnover rate when all you do is stand in the perimeter and do nothing other than shoot the ball or pass it along. It's also easy when you're only asked to play your position, instead of out of position... especially be a PG when you're clearly not one. It's very rare to find players that drive to the basket constantly and have low turnover rates.

Not saying that Tony is not a turnover machine, but he has improved in this aspect and aside from those head scratching moments, I'd take his turnovers trying to create something while driving to the basket over players that do nothing aside from standing around in the perimeter.

He hasn't played much PG at all AND his shortcomings are the items he embraces on a court.  The guy is a turnover machine because he is too undisciplined to play within his own shortcomings.   This isn't a guy that you embrace and want to have a major role.  The fact that he is our 6th man is alarming to me especially with the resigning of Eddie House.