What if we lose out on Maggette and Posey? Ricky Davis?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Well, you can figure that 3 years from now Posey's decline could be such that he doesn't get contract offers than what the non-Bird offers in years 4 and 5. Job security. If you get injured you get paid, etc.

IMO, it's highly unlikely that he won't get atleast $2MM OR potentially get a 4th year now.  IMO, well worth the risk of waiting on his part. Then again, you don't believe he is worth the MLE for 1 year, which is contrary to the market of MLE players right now.   

Our window right now is the next 3 years. If it was last year, I might agree ... but it's not.  I'm apprehensive about the 4th year, but we are in a much better position with him and a minimum PG vs. Roger Mason and Matt Barnes/James Jones.  We've set our direction with our trades.

First it wasn't my argument, I simply explained what the reasoning could be. Don't underrate the value of job security.

I don't believe he's worth full MLE for one year, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give it to him. That doesn't mean that I stop thinking that there's better value out there by splitting the MLE... don't twist my words.

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

And as I've said countless times on this boards, I'd be all up for it if you bring Tony Allen back. But no one wants him back, so from where I sit the best way to improve our team is to spread money around as it concerns spending it on a player like Posey instead.

[timepiece33]

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

Eddie House, Sam Cassell, Earl Boykins, Jason Williams, Chris Duhon, Tyrone Lue, Anthony Carter, Juan Dixon, Jannero Pargo, Carlos Arroyo, Kenyon Dooling, and Damon Stoudamire are all free agents. I'm pretty comfortable that we could secure one with the minimum salary and I'm not sure Roger Mason is that differentiated.  Even if he is, he is not differentiated to the point James Posey is from options like Matt Barnes or James Jones or Tony Allen.

Personally, I believe you have highly underrated James Posey's contribution to the Celtics

And as I've said countless times on this boards, I'd be all up for it if you bring Tony Allen back. But no one wants him back, so from where I sit the best way to improve our team is to spread money around as it concerns spending it on a player like Posey instead.

I'd prefer to allocate Tony Allen's money and roster spot to cheaper options.  IMO, not worth bringing back. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

Eddie House, Sam Cassell, Earl Boykins, Jason Williams, Chris Duhon, Tyrone Lue, Anthony Carter, Juan Dixon, Jannero Pargo, Carlos Arroyo, Kenyon Dooling, and Damon Stoudamire are all free agents. I'm pretty comfortable that we could secure one with the minimum salary and I'm not sure Roger Mason is that differentiated.  Even if he is, he is not differentiated to the point James Posey is from options like Matt Barnes or James Jones or Tony Allen.

Personally, I believe you have highly underrated James Posey's contribution to the Celtics

And as I've said countless times on this boards, I'd be all up for it if you bring Tony Allen back. But no one wants him back, so from where I sit the best way to improve our team is to spread money around as it concerns spending it on a player like Posey instead.

I'd prefer to allocate Tony Allen's money and roster spot to cheaper options.  IMO, not worth bringing back. 

As I said on the comments on the other page, if you're just going to throw random names at me instead of bringing legit choices for the vet. min, I'm simply wasting my time with you.

[timepiece33]

As I said on the comments on the other page, if you're just going to throw random names at me instead of bringing legit choices for the vet. min, I'm simply wasting my time with you.

Personally, I take James Posey and Eddie House (who I'm very confident we could secure with either the minimum OR non birds rights).   IMO, the pure numbers suggest getting a PG with the minimum is very viable

You might feel you are wasting your time, but with the pure numbers available, I believe placing a premium on Roger Mason is a flat out horrible idea.  There is no combination including Matt Barnes or James Jones that is even close

I take James Posey and Eddie House, Damon Stoudamire, Jason Williams, or Anthony Carter over any combination you've brought up that is realistic.

I also don't understand the infatuation with Tony Allen. 

[EJPLAYA]

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

Eddie House, Sam Cassell, Earl Boykins, Jason Williams, Chris Duhon, Tyrone Lue, Anthony Carter, Juan Dixon, Jannero Pargo, Carlos Arroyo, Kenyon Dooling, and Damon Stoudamire are all free agents. I'm pretty comfortable that we could secure one with the minimum salary and I'm not sure Roger Mason is that differentiated.  Even if he is, he is not differentiated to the point James Posey is from options like Matt Barnes or James Jones or Tony Allen.

Personally, I believe you have highly underrated James Posey's contribution to the Celtics

And as I've said countless times on this boards, I'd be all up for it if you bring Tony Allen back. But no one wants him back, so from where I sit the best way to improve our team is to spread money around as it concerns spending it on a player like Posey instead.

I'd prefer to allocate Tony Allen's money and roster spot to cheaper options.  IMO, not worth bringing back. 

Eddie House and Anthony Carter are the only two on that list that I would even consider that won't take a pretty hefty paycheck to sign. Listing the names of every free agent out there doesn't quite prove your point. I agree with your thought process for the most part, but at least be committed to a player or two you truly feel will sign for cheap that have legitimately sound overall games and will add value. Lue for example, or Stoudemire are not those players. I'll take an unknown Pruitt over those two...

I agree on TA though. Money better spent elsewhere.

[timepiece33]

Eddie House and Anthony Carter are the only two on that list that I would even consider that won't take a pretty hefty paycheck to sign. Listing the names of every free agent out there doesn't quite prove your point. I agree with your thought process for the most part, but at least be committed to a player or two you truly feel will sign for cheap that have legitimately sound overall games and will add value. Lue for example, or Stoudemire are not those players. I'll take an unknown Pruitt over those two...

I agree on TA though. Money better spent elsewhere.

Personally, I'd take many of the players on the list coupled with Posey.  Eddie House makes the most sense to me right now.  We can sign him for a non birds right increase. Don't really understand why Ainge hasn't gone down that route other than a belief that he can leverage the numbers and go from there. 

I'd be very open to Williams, Lue, Parker and Stoudamire especially if the alternative is looking at SF/SG options like Matt Barnes and James Jones with Roger Mason (there are very few scenarios where I believe that is superior).  I believe several of these guys will get good contracts, but it is a numbers game.  The ability to play for the World Champs is going to be attractive especially at positions where there are massive numbers.  In this case, PG is the deepest position in free agency.

[BudweiserCeltic]

As I said on the comments on the other page, if you're just going to throw random names at me instead of bringing legit choices for the vet. min, I'm simply wasting my time with you.

Personally, I take James Posey and Eddie House (who I'm very confident we could secure with either the minimum OR non birds rights).   

You might feel you are wasting your time, but with the pure numbers available, I believe placing a premium on Roger Mason is a flat out horrible idea.  I also don't understand the infatuation with Tony Allen. 

I have zero infatuation with Tony Allen. If you find a replacement who's more skilled than him, then go ahead. But there isn't one that can be had, or I'm simply having a very hard time finding him. I could care less about Tony, I could care less about Posey, I could care less about House. I only care about this team becoming stronger.

I don't like the infatuation with House either, he's a liability out there. I love House, but there are better options than him that can be had.

We had a ton of holes last season with the Posey/House combination, we'll have them again this season. How a sudden strong performance in one playoff series suddenly makes it all OK. Through all of last season everyone wanted a better alternative than House in there. We get Cassell, he sucked, and suddenly House is treated like a premiere PG by Celtics fans. He's not the answer, we can do better.

Just say the truth, you just want Posey because you love him. Earl Boykins, Juan Dixon? lol.

We need to improve our PG play and our offense more than anything. If it means we give away a bit of defense, it's a good tradeoff. Roger Mason is a better defender than House, I'm also bringing you legit capable defenders that can also play SF. There would be little tradeoff defensively while improving the PG position vastly... both offensively and defensively.

I agree on TA though. Money better spent elsewhere.

If we could only get TA's money and offer it to someone, but it doesn't work that way. We'd be restricted to the vet. min. wether we have TA or not. and if it's spent on someone else, who would accept to play for the vet. min. who would you have in mind that is a better fit? I'm having a tough time finding someone, maybe you'd have better luck.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't like House and his small body in there alone.

[EJPLAYA]

If we could only get TA's money and offer it to someone, but it doesn't work that way. We'd be restricted to the vet. min. wether we have TA or not. and if it's spent on someone else, who would accept to play for the vet. min. who would you have in mind that is a better fit? I'm having a tough time finding someone, maybe you'd have better luck.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't like House and his small body in there alone.
[/quote]

Give me Bonzi Wells who will likely need to sign a Posey like 1 year with player option for the second type contract for cheap. Give me Devin Brown, Jarvis Hayes, Kareem Rush, Kirk Snyder... ANY of those guys can fill TA's shoes much better.

[BudweiserCeltic]

If we could only get TA's money and offer it to someone, but it doesn't work that way. We'd be restricted to the vet. min. wether we have TA or not. and if it's spent on someone else, who would accept to play for the vet. min. who would you have in mind that is a better fit? I'm having a tough time finding someone, maybe you'd have better luck.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't like House and his small body in there alone.

Give me Bonzi Wells who will likely need to sign a Posey like 1 year with player option for the second type contract for cheap. Give me Devin Brown, Jarvis Hayes, Kareem Rush, Kirk Snyder... ANY of those guys can fill TA's shoes much better.

Out of all of those maybe, just maybe Kareem Rush could be had... and I'd take TA over him in a heart beat. The others are impossible under the scenario that has been discussed here, Posey getting the full MLE.

None of those guys will be had for the minimum, and even doubt Kareem Rush can be had for the minimum. He's got a good enough shooting stroke for some team to give him a bit of money.

[timepiece33]

Just say the truth, you just want Posey because you love him.

Ummm ... if we secured Corey Maggette for the MLE, I'd pack James Posey's bags.  I've said I wouldn't even contemplate a 5 year MLE and I'd struggle at a 4 year MLE.  I just believe your stance on his worth is ludicrous and is blind to his contribution in the championship run. 

We need to improve our PG play and our offense more than anything. If it means we give away a bit of defense, it's a good tradeoff. Roger Mason is a better defender than House, I'm also bringing you legit capable defenders that can also play SF. There would be little tradeoff defensively while improving the PG position vastly... both offensively and defensively.

I'm not exactly sure where you came to the conclusion that Barnes or Jones are good defensively.  They are both tweeners who lack the footspeed to stay with SF's. 

James Jones is basically the equivalent of Eddie House at the SF position.  Barnes's turnover rates have been a concern throughout his career.  Considering you like Tony Allen, I guess that is irrelevant to you.   

I'll readily admit that Roger Mason is a better option than Eddie House.  Might even be better individually than Jason Williams, Damon Stoudamire, or Anthony Parker.   Unfortunately, when combining him with any of the available SF's you can get, he looks inferior to Posey and that player.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't see a good chance unless Maggette stuns us OR Pietrus's agent undersells his client. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'm not exactly sure where you came to the conclusion that Barnes or Jones are good defensively.  They are both tweeners who lack the footspeed to stay with SF's.

By watching them play. They're quite underrated defensively, they'll be more than adequate in our system. Our definition of good might vary, at the least they're a bit better than average defenders. That's good enough for me if you upgrade the PG position vastly.

James Jones is basically the equivalent of Eddie House at the SF position.  Barnes's turnover rates have been a concern throughout his career.  Considering you like Tony Allen, I guess that is irrelevant to you.

   

Not accurate in the James Jones/Eddie House comparison in that the responsibility that a PG has on the offense is, in my opinion, more important than the impact of the SF.

Yeah, Barnes turnover rates might be a concern.

Overall, there's a downgrade in the SF position (never disputed that there wasn't going to be), but at the least keeping capable defenders, because they are more than capable, and being somewhat competent offensively is a good tradeoff for bringing better talent to the PG position.

I'll readily admit that Roger Mason is a better option than Eddie House. Unfortunately, when combining him with any of the available SF's you can get, he looks inferior to Posey and that player.

I disagree, just because Roger Mason is capable of playing for the team under any circumstances. Eddie House can't, he simply can't because he's limited skill wise and physically wise. Roger's capability as a good defender in the 1 and 2 spot... he's upgrade defensively in the PG position, in my opinion, is greater than the downgrade to the SF position (especially when the downgrades are younger and should be more active. Posey could very well decline next year... there's a risk)

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't see a good chance unless Maggette stuns us OR Pietrus's agent undersells his client. 

I agree with you. That's why if you give Posey full MLE, and all you get is House....you need to sign Tony.

See, this isn't about having Tony no matter what. There are different scenarios that need to be considered. And if the combination is House/Posey, you're best served getting Tony.

[EJPLAYA]

If we could only get TA's money and offer it to someone, but it doesn't work that way. We'd be restricted to the vet. min. wether we have TA or not. and if it's spent on someone else, who would accept to play for the vet. min. who would you have in mind that is a better fit? I'm having a tough time finding someone, maybe you'd have better luck.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't like House and his small body in there alone.

Give me Bonzi Wells who will likely need to sign a Posey like 1 year with player option for the second type contract for cheap. Give me Devin Brown, Jarvis Hayes, Kareem Rush, Kirk Snyder... ANY of those guys can fill TA's shoes much better.

Out of all of those maybe, just maybe Kareem Rush could be had... and I'd take TA over him in a heart beat. The others are impossible under the scenario that has been discussed here, Posey getting the full MLE.

None of those guys will be had for the minimum, and even doubt Kareem Rush can be had for the minimum. He's got a good enough shooting stroke for some team to give him a bit of money.

Guarantee that at least one of those guys can be had for the vet minimum. You're not hearing any of their names out there being discussed for that reason. I know some of them will sign for a bit more, but every one of those guys are upgrades over TA who can't dribble, shoot, and is dumb as a post out there. Kareem Rush can flat out shoot the ball, however has bounced around the league. He needs the ability to be in the spotlight and show what he can do. Signing a 2 yr deal with that second as a player option for cheap like Posey and House did would be a very smart move. He is twice the player TA is though. ONe problem however is that it would be likely for him to resign with the Pacers as his brother was just added there.

When you include Damon Stoudemire as a viable PG option I have to question your scouting prowess a bit though

He is way finished in this league as far as valuable PG's. He was horrible for the Spurs last year. I even think Cassell has more left in his tank than Stoudemire. If you've read my opinions on him then you know that is saying something!

[Who]

I'll readily admit that Roger Mason is a better option than Eddie House. 

I'm not sure about that. Why is he a better option than Eddie?

That doesn't mean that I stop thinking that there's better value out there by splitting the MLE... don't twist my words.

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

I'm sorry I couldn't really follow the line of thought on Roger Mason here. Do you think we need to split the MLE to acquire him?

I think he'll very likely be there for the veteran's minimum or the LLE.

Give me Bonzi Wells who will likely need to sign a Posey like 1 year with player option for the second type contract for cheap. Give me Devin Brown, Jarvis Hayes, Kareem Rush, Kirk Snyder... ANY of those guys can fill TA's shoes much better.

Out of all of those maybe, just maybe Kareem Rush could be had... and I'd take TA over him in a heart beat. The others are impossible under the scenario that has been discussed here, Posey getting the full MLE.

None of those guys will be had for the minimum, and even doubt Kareem Rush can be had for the minimum. He's got a good enough shooting stroke for some team to give him a bit of money.

I think those four guys will be there for the minimum or LLE.

Hayes isn't someone I want for the same reasons Detroit dumped him from their playoff rotation - bad defender, frightfully inconsistent

I like Bonzi Wells. He's a very good player. Not ideal because he's not a good shooter but he could definitely add to the team in other ways. He's more a fallback for Posey than a TA replacement in my eyes.

Kareem Rush has grown on me over the past 8 months. Obie calls him his best defensive player and spent the latter part of the season sticking him on every top perimeter scorer they played. He's a good perimeter shooter who can score. He took on different roles and all types of challenges last year in Indiana. Solid player. Not getting the recognition he deserves.

Devin Brown doesn't do anything for me. Just play Giddens.
Ditto for Snyder.

Tony Allen has a good case for being the best player of the bunch.

[BudweiserCeltic]

If we could only get TA's money and offer it to someone, but it doesn't work that way. We'd be restricted to the vet. min. wether we have TA or not. and if it's spent on someone else, who would accept to play for the vet. min. who would you have in mind that is a better fit? I'm having a tough time finding someone, maybe you'd have better luck.

You don't give full MLE to Posey, and then you have a good chance of finding someone.

I don't like House and his small body in there alone.

Give me Bonzi Wells who will likely need to sign a Posey like 1 year with player option for the second type contract for cheap. Give me Devin Brown, Jarvis Hayes, Kareem Rush, Kirk Snyder... ANY of those guys can fill TA's shoes much better.

Out of all of those maybe, just maybe Kareem Rush could be had... and I'd take TA over him in a heart beat. The others are impossible under the scenario that has been discussed here, Posey getting the full MLE.

None of those guys will be had for the minimum, and even doubt Kareem Rush can be had for the minimum. He's got a good enough shooting stroke for some team to give him a bit of money.

Guarantee that at least one of those guys can be had for the vet minimum. You're not hearing any of their names out there being discussed for that reason. I know some of them will sign for a bit more, but every one of those guys are upgrades over TA who can't dribble, shoot, and is dumb as a post out there. Kareem Rush can flat out shoot the ball, however has bounced around the league. He needs the ability to be in the spotlight and show what he can do. Signing a 2 yr deal with that second as a player option for cheap like Posey and House did would be a very smart move. He is twice the player TA is though. ONe problem however is that it would be likely for him to resign with the Pacers as his brother was just added there.

When you include Damon Stoudemire as a viable PG option I have to question your scouting prowess a bit though

He is way finished in this league as far as valuable PG's. He was horrible for the Spurs last year. I even think Cassell has more left in his tank than Stoudemire. If you've read my opinions on him then you know that is saying something!

Backaway a little bit and read this thread carefully. I've never mentioned Damon, nor would I want him. Now that's out of the way, let's get tackle the other issues.

Full MLE on Posey = this means there won't be a House/Posey type of deal for Rush. He won't sign for the vet. min. For someone that is supposed to be a good shooter, he has plain sucked. He makes no sense for us, TA at the least is a better defender. Rush has gotten his chances, he has sucked. Not worth discussing anyways, Danny won't go after him 100% sure about that.

That's all you got then, Kareem Rush... that's your answer?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'll readily admit that Roger Mason is a better option than Eddie House. 

I'm not sure about that. Why is he a better option than Eddie?

I know it's not for me, but a better defender and capable of playing under more circumstances than Eddie. Can protect the ball better under pressure, finishes better, can create for himself, etc., etc.

That doesn't mean that I stop thinking that there's better value out there by splitting the MLE... don't twist my words.

And yes, I believe there's better value in a Roger Mason combination with those guys. Bring me an alternative PG that can be had at the vet. min. and I'll consider it.

I'm sorry I couldn't really follow the line of thought on Roger Mason here. Do you think we need to split the MLE to acquire him?

I think he'll very likely be there for the veteran's minimum or the LLE.

No way is Mason there for the vet. min. He could be there for the LLE, I think it might be a bit low for him still, but that'll probably be used for a Center in my opinion. If you don't give the LLE to a Center, then we'll have to find a center via the vet. min. then. I'd preffer if we spend on one.