Author Topic: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston  (Read 84784 times)

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Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #180 on: July 06, 2008, 06:38:00 PM »

Offline CoachBo

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
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Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #181 on: July 06, 2008, 06:40:03 PM »

Offline clover

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This was reported a few days ago, was it not?

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #182 on: July 06, 2008, 06:40:32 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
I think it's pretty fair to say that he would he would be able to since he has said that he wants to win. If he wants to win then he will do whatever Doc asks of him. He is really athletic so it's not like he can't defend .

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #183 on: July 06, 2008, 06:41:25 PM »

Offline T1ME

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Maggette understands the difference between starter and starter minutes.

He would get starter minutes, which means Allen and Pierce play less each game which puts them in better shape for the playoffs.

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #184 on: July 06, 2008, 06:41:44 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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This was reported a few days ago, was it not?
maybe I missed it ,but don't remember seeing anything about him having discussions with Doc before I saw it on SC

Re: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston
« Reply #185 on: July 06, 2008, 06:43:28 PM »

Offline earl

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More dangerous to other teams but maybe even more dangerous for us. 1. Maggette is a poor defender. It's the defense that fuels an efficient offense. 2. Maggette would need to get touches. Who are you taking shots from? Ray, Pierce, Garnett? Maggette would mostly be a 3rd option to score. 3. Outside shooters are important not only, or not even mainly, because of what they score but due to the spacing they provide. 4. Some players can get their game going without many shots, but probably that's not the case with Maggette. He's a player who has to dominate the ball to be effective, he's a high usage rate guy. Can he be effective doing less? Is this the kind of player you want to be your 3rd scoring option, a prototypical scorer? 

I'd view Maggette as our Manu Ginobili, in terms of role.

1.) Maggette may be a poor defender, but this is a team defense. Ray Allen was a poor defender too (and some say so about Paul, though I disagree on that). You don't need great individual defenders to play good team defense. Rip Hamilton is a poor defender (and he starts!), but Detroit does alright. The same goes for Gino, he may be worse. Hell, the Cavs started WALLY, and they played some of the best D in the playoffs.
2.) He's the first bench scorer. Without House and Posey, who is going to score consistently off the bench?
3.) Agreed. If we lose out on Pose and bring in Maggette, we'd need to add a good shooter. I'd be more than happy to see House back in green in that scenario.
4.) I have no problem with our last scoring option being a prototypical scorer. ???

I could care less where the shots come from. Take the shot when he's open, pass it when he's not. That was supposedly the C's biggest problem last year when they brought in Ray and KG (too many good players! bad! ::)). If Maggette is willing to put team first and sacrifice (ubuntu), then it's moot.

I'd still be more than happy to see Posey back (I'm not fully convinced this is the situation Maggette is looking for), but the C's can be just as good, if not better next year if they signed Maggette instead.

Re: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston
« Reply #186 on: July 06, 2008, 06:46:59 PM »

Offline yupitsme

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sorry if this article has been posted. This has gone on back and fourth for the last week, so who knows if it's true.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8315258/Report:-Maggette-has-offer-on-table-from-Boston

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #187 on: July 06, 2008, 06:49:42 PM »

Offline cordobes

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
I think it's pretty fair to say that he would he would be able to since he has said that he wants to win. If he wants to win then he will do whatever Doc asks of him. He is really athletic so it's not like he can't defend .

That is a misconception. One can be have phenomenal athleticism and still be a very poor defender. And please, don't say that our system will make him better. Defensive systems can hide a poor defender, but they don't turn a bad defender - especially if the player is a bad defender because he lacks lateral quickness or fundamentals - into a good defender.

Yes, this was reported days ago. Allow me to quote myself:

Quote
During the free agency season, there are some rules that I, as a fan, consider indispensable to follow. The first of them is a truly ironclad one: don't give a [dang] about what free agents tell to newspapers. I don't even care to read the quotes. They love all cities with a NBA franchise, may them be big, small, with good weather, bad weather, in the West, North, South or East, rural or cosmopolitan, and for all these reasons; they want to play for a winning team in a day and they want to be part of a turnaround in the next one; they want to play with a gifted point guard in east coast newspaper and with a dominant big in a west coast newspaper; they want a chance to start today and they are willing to contribute from the bench tomorrow; they would be honored to play for a storied franchise now and flattered to play for a expansion team a few moments later; they love all coaches and every possible playing style in the NBA would suit them perfectly - slow paced, fast paced, offensively focused, defensive and they suddenly discover their extreme versatility and that they can play at least 3 positions. Wasn't Doc a big reason why Maggette was traded from Orlando, btw? If the Sixers or the Warriors offer him a big contract, there's where he's going to play.

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #188 on: July 06, 2008, 06:52:11 PM »

Offline earl

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Maggette understands the difference between starter and starter minutes.

He would get starter minutes, which means Allen and Pierce play less each game which puts them in better shape for the playoffs.

TP, good point. Somebody posted on one of these threads how last year Posey played more (or near, can't remember) minutes to a couple of the starters (Rondo and Perk I think).

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #189 on: July 06, 2008, 06:53:58 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
I think it's pretty fair to say that he would he would be able to since he has said that he wants to win. If he wants to win then he will do whatever Doc asks of him. He is really athletic so it's not like he can't defend .

Quote
That is a misconception. One can be have phenomenal athleticism and still be a very poor defender. And please, don't say that our system will make him better. Defensive systems can hide a poor defender, but they don't turn a bad defender - especially if the player is a bad defender because he lacks lateral quickness or fundamentals - into a good defender.


defense is all want to and effort. The guy is a 20 ppg scorer even if he isn't the greatest defender he can make it up on the offensive end. By the way weren't Ray Allen and Paul Pierce considered average defenders at best before last year started? If Ray Allen can become an adequate to good defender then so can Maggette as long as the effort is there.

Re: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston
« Reply #190 on: July 06, 2008, 07:14:29 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

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not for nothin but a bench of matt barnes, francisco elson, anthony johnson and the addition of giddens  and pruitt to go along with powe and bbd could be every bit the bench we had last year.
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Re: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston
« Reply #191 on: July 06, 2008, 07:16:30 PM »

Offline cordobes

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More dangerous to other teams but maybe even more dangerous for us. 1. Maggette is a poor defender. It's the defense that fuels an efficient offense. 2. Maggette would need to get touches. Who are you taking shots from? Ray, Pierce, Garnett? Maggette would mostly be a 3rd option to score. 3. Outside shooters are important not only, or not even mainly, because of what they score but due to the spacing they provide. 4. Some players can get their game going without many shots, but probably that's not the case with Maggette. He's a player who has to dominate the ball to be effective, he's a high usage rate guy. Can he be effective doing less? Is this the kind of player you want to be your 3rd scoring option, a prototypical scorer? 

I'd view Maggette as our Manu Ginobili, in terms of role.

1.) Maggette may be a poor defender, but this is a team defense. Ray Allen was a poor defender too (and some say so about Paul, though I disagree on that). You don't need great individual defenders to play good team defense. Rip Hamilton is a poor defender (and he starts!), but Detroit does alright. The same goes for Gino, he may be worse. Hell, the Cavs started WALLY, and they played some of the best D in the playoffs.
2.) He's the first bench scorer. Without House and Posey, who is going to score consistently off the bench?
3.) Agreed. If we lose out on Pose and bring in Maggette, we'd need to add a good shooter. I'd be more than happy to see House back in green in that scenario.
4.) I have no problem with our last scoring option being a prototypical scorer. ???

I could care less where the shots come from. Take the shot when he's open, pass it when he's not. That was supposedly the C's biggest problem last year when they brought in Ray and KG (too many good players! bad! ::)). If Maggette is willing to put team first and sacrifice (ubuntu), then it's moot.

I'd still be more than happy to see Posey back (I'm not fully convinced this is the situation Maggette is looking for), but the C's can be just as good, if not better next year if they signed Maggette instead.

Maggette is a subpar SG. He's not Manu. We also don't have a Bowen. And he's a SF who you don't want to play extended minutes in other positions, including the 2, where is a much less efficient player. And Manu is a faux bench player, he's basically a starter who doesn't start. 

You don't need great individual defenders to play good team defense.

Myth. There's no team defense that can save you if you don't have good individual defenders. Do you know the difference between our defense and Pacers' defense? It's explained by a single reason: we have great individual defenders, they don't. I've already written a variety of posts about the overrated nature of team defense over here, including in this thread.

Ray Allen was a poor defender too

Myth. I've already given this recomendation: go see the 2001 ECF again. Ray Allen put a defensive clinic guarding MVP Allen Iverson, who stated that he was the best defender he faced all season. Ray Allen was a very good defender with the Bucks, a very good defender in college.

and some say so about Paul

When asked, motivated and coached to play defense, Pierce was always a top 5 defender in his position. Another myth.

The problem with Ray and Pierce is that they're aging and I don't think it's wise to assign them to defend the opponent's best winger every night, every game. It will make them less effective in the other end of the court. It's a bad trade-off, as both of them are way better players than Maggette and complement each other better (Corey is basically a poor man's Pierce).

2.) He's the first bench scorer. Without House and Posey, who is going to score consistently off the bench?

Not sure if I understand. We already have 3 all-star scorers in the starting 5. We need scoring off the bench, but why should that be the priority?

The same goes for Gino, he may be worse
No, he's not.


Hell, the Cavs started WALLY, and they played some of the best D in the playoffs


The Cavs played good defense in spite of Wally. They played a very bold defensive system against us, using a centerfield, assigning Wally to a role is perfectly able to fill. And besides their bigs and LeBron, they have elite defenders from the bench: Varejão and a winger, Pavlovic. Now, imagine you're facing the Cavs once again. Pierce needs to get a rest or gets himself in foul trouble. Who are you going to put on LeBron? Maggette? Ray Allen? The 6'3'' rookie? Scalabrine? Maggette allows a opponent PER of 18.4. The average SF in the league has borderline All-Star numbers when facing him.


If we lose out on Pose and bring in Maggette, we'd need to add a good shooter.


And how are you going to play all these guys? We are ending up using our best offensive players (Ray, Pierce) primarily as defenders.

4.) I have no problem with our last scoring option being a prototypical scorer.

You should. A prototypical scorer is a player that basically scores and is only efficient when scoring. Basketball is much more than scoring. Who's going to do the other things? Scorers? They're going to do it poorly. That's what the concept of role-player is about. Red Auerbach invented it for a reason. If your last scoring option is a scorer, you are probably headed to a lottery spot.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 07:41:39 PM by cordobes »

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #192 on: July 06, 2008, 07:37:03 PM »

Offline cordobes

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
I think it's pretty fair to say that he would he would be able to since he has said that he wants to win. If he wants to win then he will do whatever Doc asks of him. He is really athletic so it's not like he can't defend .

Quote
That is a misconception. One can be have phenomenal athleticism and still be a very poor defender. And please, don't say that our system will make him better. Defensive systems can hide a poor defender, but they don't turn a bad defender - especially if the player is a bad defender because he lacks lateral quickness or fundamentals - into a good defender.


defense is all want to and effort. The guy is a 20 ppg scorer even if he isn't the greatest defender he can make it up on the offensive end. By the way weren't Ray Allen and Paul Pierce considered average defenders at best before last year started? If Ray Allen can become an adequate to good defender then so can Maggette as long as the effort is there.

I've already addressed this issue. In my view, there are a lot of fallacies in that reasoning:

http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=20712.msg324512#msg324512

Also, do you think Maggette can keep his 20 ppg if he joins the Celtics? Last year, he used 27% of the Clippers' possessions to meet that numbers.   People are assuming that players can keep "making sacrifices and sharing the ball" indefinitely and still keep their efficiency, but that's not the way it works. And it's not a problem of egos or willingness. 

Re: Maggette talks to Doc
« Reply #193 on: July 06, 2008, 07:40:17 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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If there's a reporter from the Globe or Herald nearby, I'd like to know if Corey is willing to commit himself to improving on the defensive end.

Bigger question for me than if he's willing to come off the bench.
I think it's pretty fair to say that he would he would be able to since he has said that he wants to win. If he wants to win then he will do whatever Doc asks of him. He is really athletic so it's not like he can't defend .

Quote
That is a misconception. One can be have phenomenal athleticism and still be a very poor defender. And please, don't say that our system will make him better. Defensive systems can hide a poor defender, but they don't turn a bad defender - especially if the player is a bad defender because he lacks lateral quickness or fundamentals - into a good defender.


defense is all want to and effort. The guy is a 20 ppg scorer even if he isn't the greatest defender he can make it up on the offensive end. By the way weren't Ray Allen and Paul Pierce considered average defenders at best before last year started? If Ray Allen can become an adequate to good defender then so can Maggette as long as the effort is there.

I've already addressed this issue. In my view, there are a lot of fallacies in that reasoning:

http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=64&topic=20712.msg324512#msg324512

Also, do you think Maggette can keep his 20 ppg if he joins the Celtics? Last year, he used 27% of the Clippers' possessions to meet that numbers.   People are assuming that players can keep "making sacrifices and sharing the ball" indefinitely and still keep their efficiency, but that's not the way it works. And it's not a problem of egos or willingness. 
ok buddy ,I am sure you have seen your fair share of clippers games in portugal to know how good a defender Maggette can or can't be ......

Re: Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2008, 07:42:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Again, it's silly to haggle over individuals like this. Add Elson or even PJ to Theo, Williams and Finley and it's at least as good as Posey, Cassell and Pollard (and PJ)if not better. Posey's a good 6th man, but it's not like he's Kevin McHale.

You can argue that it's silly to haggle over individuals if you showed individuals that were an improvement.  So far, your better bench looks like a wash outside of the pretty significant discrepancy between Finley and Posey.

Sure, it's feasible that we could improve our bench.  Unfortunately, I believe that Posey is a consideration in that "bench".   

As a Celtic fan, I hope that the relationship with Rivers is ENOUGH for Maggette to choose an inferior scenario for him.

  Again, you asked for a better bench out of available UFAs, then you immediately start attacking my list because you hadn't heard that one of the players I listed was looking to move (which I knew you'd do). That's why I didn't spend a lot of effort looking for a list of free agents. In fact, I'll go back to generalizations. You think that the dropoff from Posey to any other FA wing UFA is so severe that we couldn't possibly make up for that talent loss by upgrading Cassell and Pollard and PJ. I don't think that's true. But clearly there's no way to convince you of that, just like you've done nothing to convince me your point is correct.