Maggette says he could be willing to take pay cut to come to Boston

[earl]

I think it's also important to look at the overall situation vs. player to player comparisons between Posey and Maggette. The situation at hand is that we have the starting five back, and we have:

- No backup center.
- No backup point guard.
- No bench general role players (offensively or defensively oriented).

And ideally you'd want one of those guys to play the 6th man role (Posey last year), which is probably your most important bench player. We basically have BBD, Powe and some rookies.

For sixth man candidates we have Posey and Maggette. If you sign Posey, you are still offensively limited. If you sign Maggette, your bench is defensively limited.

The overall result depends on the finished product of the team. We could sign Maggette, a defensive-minded backup PG and C and potentially not miss a beat defensively while improving offensively. It's not just an equation of subtracting Posey, adding Maggette and definitely dropping off significantly defensively. The fact is that several variables remain unfilled even after this signing, and the end result is still unknown.

[winsomme]

You and I do not see the pro game the same. At all.

The definition of a poor defender includes a defender who doesn't put out effort, so I don't agree with your last post, either. It's a results game and the results are the same.

You cannot win a championship rolling a team of scorers out there that's ambivalent about playing defense, and the Lakers are proof of that.

We have three great scorers in the starting lineup, who rarely left the lineup together, and two significant threats coming off the bench. In that equasion, I'm looking for defense off the bench rather than scoring 100 percent of the time. It's an approach that won us a title, and the ONLY acceptable reason to me to change it by letting Posey go is if management determines his contract demands are excessive.

i'm not positive, but i think one of the points that Bud is making is that there are different reasons for being a bad defender and some of them are easier to correct than others.

if a guy simply can't physically stay with his man or make rotations, that is hard to correct.

if a guy just can't pick up the things happening on the court fast enough, that is also hard to correct.

but if a guy just isn't putting the effort in on the defensive, all things considered that may be the most correctable of the possible reasons someone is deficient on the defensive end.

personally, i would rather not bring in a guy that has any of these problems, especially when we already have someone doing the job well, but i think that what Bud may be getting at is that Maggette has the physical and mental tools and now just needs to get the fire lit under him... a fire that may only be lit by coming to a Championship winning team.

[cordobes]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

[earl]

I think this is the essential point. Even if you believe that Posey was "abused" by LeBron, consider this: Posey is one of the best players in the league defending SFs. Maggette is very mediocre. Assuming that their defensive performances would equate is plainly wrong, I think. It would be like assuming that Posey could be a 20ppg scorer if he uses 26% of the Clippers offensive possessions.

Not really. If LeBron can do anything he wants to against Posey, he will do anything he wants to against Maggette. Their performance may not equate defensively, so Maggette might be made to look stupid more often, or Posey might have his hand in LeBron's face quicker. So what? Posey gets a better grade from the defensive coach, but the end result is the same.

Listen, I understand Posey is a good defensive player, and better than Maggette in that regard, just don't give me the LeBron stuff. LeBron is absurd, and I'm just thankful we have a player in Pierce who can defend and has the kind of body strength to help slow him down.

[BudweiserCeltic]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

[BballTim]

Well, of course if you have a ton of crap defensive players you're not going to get much done in any defensive system.

You have a good defensive system, good defensive players, you can fill the middle with average or subpar defenders and overall you should still have quite a potent defense.'

To me, as this team is currently consituted, we need to improve the bench offense more than anything. And not with shooters, but with scorers.

Defense wins championships and all, but we were a bit lucky that our defense sustained us the way it did... a team shouldn't have to rely on its defense to win. It should be a tool to help you win, just like the offense is. Our defense had to carry our team through the playoffs a little bit too much for my liking. I would say the same if we relied too much in our offense. We need to balance the two a bit better, and it starts by getting scorers off the bench.

I absolutely disagree. In my view, and from my experience, it's precisely the opposite: you can rely on your defense to win, but you can't win relying on your offense. Offense is too inconsistent by definition; defense you can bring it every night.

If we replace two proved defensive players like PJ and Posey with two mediocre defenders, our team defense will suffer a lot. You still have Garnett, but if you're going to need Garnett to help more and more quickly, he'll tire down quickly, he'll make more mistakes and he'll get in foul trouble. You can still sink a lot to protect the paint, but if your players are not good enough closing out - and that's not only about quickness and effort, the opponents will have more type A outside shots.

  Honestly, did you think PJ was that good a defender? I didn't think he was that great.

[cordobes]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

Ok, some food for thought:

Premise: Maggette coming off the bench and taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. It's reasonable to assume that happened 3 times during his career: 02/03; 05/06; 06/07.

Maggette scored 16.8 ppg, 17.8 ppg and 16.9 ppg in each of those seasons.

Maggette took 17.5, 18.2, 17.7 of his team possessions per game in each of those seasons [(FGA+FTA/2+TO)/G]. He played between 29 and 31 mpg in those seasons.

So, during his career, and under these conditions, Maggette scores 17 ppg taking 18 possesions per game (approximation). This translates into a offensive efficiency of 94.44 points per 100 possessions.

Last season, with Posey as their 6th man, the Boston Celtics scored 107.4 points per 100 possessions.

So, what you want to do is to take 18 possessions that last season valued 19.3 points delivering them to a player that historically uses that same amount of possessions to score 17 points, arguing that this will make up for his lack of defense. There's more to discuss about this, but I'll leave it here for now. Very problematic for me is that Maggette is only efficient playing in the same position of our best offensive player. I think this is being wildly disregarded.

Maggette is a passable rebounder, but he's not a good offensive rebounder. Last season he grabbed 3.5% of the Clippers' missed shots. That's very subpar for a starting SF playing 36 mpg. Also, Maggette's REB-r is 9.1, Posey's 10.5 (http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/Clippers.htm)

PS - I was having trouble entering 82games database so I resorted to the previously presented back-of-the-envelope calculations. I finally succeeded and here are Maggette's effective field goal % for those seasons:
02/03 - .484 
05/06 - .477      
06/07 - .454     

[blur]

Posey's effeciency ratings came on the best team in the NBA. Maggette's ratings came on one of the worst teams in the NBA. I think it's safe to that any team analysis between the two needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

[Roy Hobbs]

PS - I was having trouble entering 82games database so I resorted to the previously presented back-of-the-envelope calculations. I finally succeeded and here are Maggette's effective field goal % for those seasons:
02/03 - .484 
05/06 - .477      
06/07 - .454     

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maggeco01.html

That site will save you a lot of work in the future. 

[cordobes]

Posey's effeciency ratings came on the best team in the NBA. Maggette's ratings came on one of the worst teams in the NBA. I think it's safe to that any team analysis between the two needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Well, I didn't make any kind of analysis between Posey and Maggette. Here's some more raw data to thing about: What was the improvement of GPA eFG% after moving from their previous lousy teams (well, Pierce didn't actually move, but you get the idea) to the best team in the NBA:

Pierce
06/07 - .502 
07/08 - .529      

Garnett
06/07 - .480   
07/08 - .539

Allen
06/07 - .509
07/08 - .532         

Will Maggette's efficiency raise? I'm quiet sure it will - even though he's going to be in a different situation that the 3 previous players. But that's not the issue here. The issue is: how much Maggette's higher efficiency will help the Celtics improving their team offensive efficiency? From whom will Maggette get his possessions? He won't get them from Garnett, Perkins, Powe and Rondo, I can assure you. He'll get them primarily from Pierce, Posey and, to less extent Ray Allen. And Maggette is not very effective playing SG - in the last 3 seasons he only played there 3%, 3% and 5% of the time for his team -, because he's not quick enough to take 2guards off the dribble and he can't defend them (because he's not quick enough).

[cordobes]

PS - I was having trouble entering 82games database so I resorted to the previously presented back-of-the-envelope calculations. I finally succeeded and here are Maggette's effective field goal % for those seasons:
02/03 - .484 
05/06 - .477      
06/07 - .454     

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/maggeco01.html

That site will save you a lot of work in the future. 

He... I'm such a 82games faithful that I forgot about those guys. Thanks for the reminder Roy, TP.

[Steve Weinman]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

Where does your assessment of the bolded statement come from?  Virtually each of the people on this board who has attested to watching Maggette extensively this season has readily assessed him as a below average-to-poor defender at best.  That doesn't come from blocks and steals numbers -- that comes from the folks who watched him play, CoachBo in particular -- but there have definitely been a few others.  Furthermore, how else do you think it is that he has garnered a reputation from beat writers, television analysts and other observers around the league as a defender who loses focus and doesn't get after it well enough on that end of the floor?  I have a hard time believing folks are just making stuff up about Maggette.  From what I've watched, he's no great shakes on D, but I'll happily defer to those who have watched him with more regularity than I do -- and virtually all of them seem to say that -- to put it kindly -- that end of the floor isn't his forte.  You've now asserted that said reputation is unfair but haven't backed that claim up with either statistical or anecdotal evidence.  What have you seen that would indicate Maggette's rep to be a public misconception?

I think a big part of my disagreement with you on this, Bud, is the idea you discuss about being able to sign Maggette and a wing defender "like Tony Allen."  If Tony Allen is the caliber of wing defender this team is replacing Posey with, I'm not thrilled at all.  Allen has an excellent physique and physical tools, and to his credit, he plays hard.  But he also plays consistently thoughtless basketball (save for a pleasant ten minutes in the Finals).  Jumping at every up-fake, taking high-risk, low-reward gambling lunges in the passing lanes and being overzealous to the point of committing needless fouls makes a player far more of a hindrance than a help to his team.  I'm not looking to turn this into a debate over TA's merit, but since you brought him up as a possible replacement-type defender for Posey, I'd like to clarify how big a drop-off that is at this point in time on the defensive end.

Undoubtedly, it's a solid idea to be great on both sides of the ball, but I fully share with Coach and cordobes the idea that the primary emphasis must be on playing defense.  Defensive teams come to play every night and don't have to worry about having a particularly high percentage of shots fall in order to win games.  As Coach mentions, great defensive teams create offensive opportunities for themselves both by making the opponent work on the offensive end (thus sapping their energy on D) and with steals, rebounds and quick outlet passes that lead to points in transition.  The most recent example of this that I can point you to is none other than the 2007-08 Boston Celtics.  But almost without exception, every championship team in recent memory played excellently efficient (points per possession) defense.

I'm not suggesting that the Celtics can't win with Maggette -- I've written about this in the Babble and several other related threads already -- or that they would necessarily lose all of their defensive edge.  But I know what James Posey gives this team, and in my book, that defensive edge trumps Maggette's instant offense -- as enticing as it is -- any day.  I'll happily welcome Maggette to the fold if he is the guy, and I'll hope that many of us are proven wrong as he picks up his intensity and becomes an (at least) adequate defender and helps propel this team to banner 18.  But until the deals are signed and sealed, I can't help but see more sense in Posey for the reasons delineated above -- and for all those that the likes of cordobes, Coach and winsomme (as well as a few others, too) have made clear thus far.

One final point -- You refer to Maggette as "quite a good rebounder."  What is the frame of reference being used here?  Since the conversation has been about Posey and Maggette, I'm going to presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the  implication of the comment was as a comparison with Posey.  To that effect, I remind you that Posey and Maggette are almost exactly equal in per-minute rebounding production for their careers, with Posey actually a tenth of a rebound better per 36 minutes, 6.3 to 6.2.  Furthermore, last season Posey averaged 6.4 boards per 36 minutes to Maggette's 5.7.  I point this out because the Celtics played the 18th quickest pace in the league to the Clippers' 11th.  Just some food for thought.

-sw

[BudweiserCeltic]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

Where does your assessment of the bolded statement come from?  Virtually each of the people on this board who has attested to watching Maggette extensively this season has readily assessed him as a below average-to-poor defender at best.  That doesn't come from blocks and steals numbers -- that comes from the folks who watched him play, CoachBo in particular -- but there have definitely been a few others.  Furthermore, how else do you think it is that he has garnered a reputation from beat writers, television analysts and other observers around the league as a defender who loses focus and doesn't get after it well enough on that end of the floor?  I have a hard time believing folks are just making stuff up about Maggette.  From what I've watched, he's no great shakes on D, but I'll happily defer to those who have watched him with more regularity than I do -- and virtually all of them seem to say that -- to put it kindly -- that end of the floor isn't his forte.  You've now asserted that said reputation is unfair but haven't backed that claim up with either statistical or anecdotal evidence.  What have you seen that would indicate Maggette's rep to be a public misconception?

I think a big part of my disagreement with you on this, Bud, is the idea you discuss about being able to sign Maggette and a wing defender "like Tony Allen."  If Tony Allen is the caliber of wing defender this team is replacing Posey with, I'm not thrilled at all.  Allen has an excellent physique and physical tools, and to his credit, he plays hard.  But he also plays consistently thoughtless basketball (save for a pleasant ten minutes in the Finals).  Jumping at every up-fake, taking high-risk, low-reward gambling lunges in the passing lanes and being overzealous to the point of committing needless fouls makes a player far more of a hindrance than a help to his team.  I'm not looking to turn this into a debate over TA's merit, but since you brought him up as a possible replacement-type defender for Posey, I'd like to clarify how big a drop-off that is at this point in time on the defensive end.

Undoubtedly, it's a solid idea to be great on both sides of the ball, but I fully share with Coach and cordobes the idea that the primary emphasis must be on playing defense.  Defensive teams come to play every night and don't have to worry about having a particularly high percentage of shots fall in order to win games.  As Coach mentions, great defensive teams create offensive opportunities for themselves both by making the opponent work on the offensive end (thus sapping their energy on D) and with steals, rebounds and quick outlet passes that lead to points in transition.  The most recent example of this that I can point you to is none other than the 2007-08 Boston Celtics.  But almost without exception, every championship team in recent memory played excellently efficient (points per possession) defense.

I'm not suggesting that the Celtics can't win with Maggette -- I've written about this in the Babble and several other related threads already -- or that they would necessarily lose all of their defensive edge.  But I know what James Posey gives this team, and in my book, that defensive edge trumps Maggette's instant offense -- as enticing as it is -- any day.  I'll happily welcome Maggette to the fold if he is the guy, and I'll hope that many of us are proven wrong as he picks up his intensity and becomes an (at least) adequate defender and helps propel this team to banner 18.  But until the deals are signed and sealed, I can't help but see more sense in Posey for the reasons delineated above -- and for all those that the likes of cordobes, Coach and winsomme (as well as a few others, too) have made clear thus far.

One final point -- You refer to Maggette as "quite a good rebounder."  What is the frame of reference being used here?  Since the conversation has been about Posey and Maggette, I'm going to presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the  implication of the comment was as a comparison with Posey.  To that effect, I remind you that Posey and Maggette are almost exactly equal in per-minute rebounding production for their careers, with Posey actually a tenth of a rebound better per 36 minutes, 6.3 to 6.2.  Furthermore, last season Posey averaged 6.4 boards per 36 minutes to Maggette's 5.7.  I point this out because the Celtics played the 18th quickest pace in the league to the Clippers' 11th.  Just some food for thought.

-sw

Ah, so all you require are anecdotal stories similar to those earlier last year when people were drawing conclusions about Eddie House's and Ray Allen's lack of defense. Those types of anecdotes? You should know by now that people like to overemphasize some points and use hyperboles to diminish the value one player might present in order to make the case for another player of their choice.

Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense... is that suddenly a myth we created that is no longer valid once we lose Posey?

And no, I wasn't trying to say that Corey is a better rebounder than Posey. I'm just saying that he's capable of the little things too, you know like many of us like to reffer to rebounding as one of those little things.

But whatever, I'm done with the subject. It's clear to me that everyone seems to have an agenda to push, and in order to push it everything needs to be either black or white. There's no gray area, there's no middle ground. That's why labels are used to describe players...it's easier that way. Someone says Maggette's defense sucks, and it sticks with him... he's incapable of commiting to defense, he's incapable of playing on our defensive system, our defensive system is incapable of lending its strength to help the guy on defense... nothing suddenly applies to him.

As for the Tony Allen bit, once again getting the reputation on up-fakes based on one play. Yeah, once in a while he falls for them, but most are drawing the conclusion in that famous Billups play. I wonder how many made comments about his defense being that "poor" before that occured. How easy it's to forget about those moments when he does play good defense, like on Redd and even the great Kobe Bryant.

Then we make comments on how Maggette can't play the 2 or can't guard it. Well you have Tony in there and keep Corey at the 3. It's not like Posey is that great of a defender against SG's either. Against some yes, but he's not the answer for all as it's being alluded to... he's more useful with the SF/PF types. There's also Giddens to consider... he has the makings to be a useful defender, at the 2 in particular.

Ah, why don't we bring Powe to this discussion? All playoffs long I was explaining why Doc wouldn't use Powe, because of his poor rotations. And suddenly Doc is a moron, as far as the blog is concerned for not playing Powe. Double-standard maybe? It's OK to play Powe over PJ even though he's an inferior defender (oh how many times through the playoffs were we crying for some offense from the bench?), but maybe it's not quite alright to have Maggette over Posey? I'm not saying you're one of those, but these are the types of discussions that go around here.

Posey played great defense for us, but he was a step slower (even with 10 teps slower he's still a better defender than most), but when brought up it's suddenly nitpicking. He was good against LeBron... but not in all games. He was excellent in the first game, but after that LeBron started getting the better of him to the point that people in this blog where screaming at Doc when he put Posey on him instead of Pierce through stretches. And excuse me about Posey and Kobe, Posey didn't do that good of a job on Kobe. The team certainly did a magnificent job on Kobe, but Posey wasn't that good on him as alluded to. Shall I bring Rip Hamilton? Na', he shouldn't be a factor here.

Posey was great defensively, good defensive rotations, good at the passing lanes, etc.... but guarding the star players in particular he wasn't the defensive god that he has been made to be. He made good on the Walton's, but the Kobe's... not really, he was adequate at best. Or I guess I shouldn't put too much weight on how our team defense made it so Kobe had to go through 3 defenders in order to get to the basket, we shouldn't put too much weight on the defensive rotation of our bigs that were the most vital... always putting 2 or 3 bodies between the star players and the basket. Maggette can't be one of those bodies? Pierce was the only one that really was effective guarding Kobe straight up. Everyone else needed help from the others, including Posey.

Man, I went rambling... but since this is going to be my last post on this subject so be it.

[Steve Weinman]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

Where does your assessment of the bolded statement come from?  Virtually each of the people on this board who has attested to watching Maggette extensively this season has readily assessed him as a below average-to-poor defender at best.  That doesn't come from blocks and steals numbers -- that comes from the folks who watched him play, CoachBo in particular -- but there have definitely been a few others.  Furthermore, how else do you think it is that he has garnered a reputation from beat writers, television analysts and other observers around the league as a defender who loses focus and doesn't get after it well enough on that end of the floor?  I have a hard time believing folks are just making stuff up about Maggette.  From what I've watched, he's no great shakes on D, but I'll happily defer to those who have watched him with more regularity than I do -- and virtually all of them seem to say that -- to put it kindly -- that end of the floor isn't his forte.  You've now asserted that said reputation is unfair but haven't backed that claim up with either statistical or anecdotal evidence.  What have you seen that would indicate Maggette's rep to be a public misconception?

I think a big part of my disagreement with you on this, Bud, is the idea you discuss about being able to sign Maggette and a wing defender "like Tony Allen."  If Tony Allen is the caliber of wing defender this team is replacing Posey with, I'm not thrilled at all.  Allen has an excellent physique and physical tools, and to his credit, he plays hard.  But he also plays consistently thoughtless basketball (save for a pleasant ten minutes in the Finals).  Jumping at every up-fake, taking high-risk, low-reward gambling lunges in the passing lanes and being overzealous to the point of committing needless fouls makes a player far more of a hindrance than a help to his team.  I'm not looking to turn this into a debate over TA's merit, but since you brought him up as a possible replacement-type defender for Posey, I'd like to clarify how big a drop-off that is at this point in time on the defensive end.

Undoubtedly, it's a solid idea to be great on both sides of the ball, but I fully share with Coach and cordobes the idea that the primary emphasis must be on playing defense.  Defensive teams come to play every night and don't have to worry about having a particularly high percentage of shots fall in order to win games.  As Coach mentions, great defensive teams create offensive opportunities for themselves both by making the opponent work on the offensive end (thus sapping their energy on D) and with steals, rebounds and quick outlet passes that lead to points in transition.  The most recent example of this that I can point you to is none other than the 2007-08 Boston Celtics.  But almost without exception, every championship team in recent memory played excellently efficient (points per possession) defense.

I'm not suggesting that the Celtics can't win with Maggette -- I've written about this in the Babble and several other related threads already -- or that they would necessarily lose all of their defensive edge.  But I know what James Posey gives this team, and in my book, that defensive edge trumps Maggette's instant offense -- as enticing as it is -- any day.  I'll happily welcome Maggette to the fold if he is the guy, and I'll hope that many of us are proven wrong as he picks up his intensity and becomes an (at least) adequate defender and helps propel this team to banner 18.  But until the deals are signed and sealed, I can't help but see more sense in Posey for the reasons delineated above -- and for all those that the likes of cordobes, Coach and winsomme (as well as a few others, too) have made clear thus far.

One final point -- You refer to Maggette as "quite a good rebounder."  What is the frame of reference being used here?  Since the conversation has been about Posey and Maggette, I'm going to presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the  implication of the comment was as a comparison with Posey.  To that effect, I remind you that Posey and Maggette are almost exactly equal in per-minute rebounding production for their careers, with Posey actually a tenth of a rebound better per 36 minutes, 6.3 to 6.2.  Furthermore, last season Posey averaged 6.4 boards per 36 minutes to Maggette's 5.7.  I point this out because the Celtics played the 18th quickest pace in the league to the Clippers' 11th.  Just some food for thought.

-sw

Ah, so all you require are anecdotal stories similar to those earlier last year when people were drawing conclusions about Eddie House's and Ray Allen's lack of defense. Those types of anecdotes? You should know by now that people like to overemphasize some points and use hyperboles to diminish the value one player might present in order to make the case for another player of their choice.

Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense... is that suddenly a myth we created that is no longer valid once we lose Posey?

And no, I wasn't trying to say that Corey is a better rebounder than Posey. I'm just saying that he's capable of the little things too, you know like many of us like to reffer to rebounding as one of those little things.

But whatever, I'm done with the subject. It's clear to me that everyone seems to have an agenda to push, and in order to push it everything needs to be either black or white. There's no gray area, there's no middle ground. That's why labels are used to describe players...it's easier that way. Someone says Maggette's defense sucks, and it sticks with him... he's incapable of commiting to defense, he's incapable of playing on our defensive system, our defensive system is incapable of lending its strength to help the guy on defense... nothing suddenly applies to him.

As for the Tony Allen bit, once again getting the reputation on up-fakes based on one play. Yeah, once in a while he falls for them, but most are drawing the conclusion in that famous Billups play. I wonder how many made comments about his defense being that "poor" before that occured. How easy it's to forget about those moments when he does play good defense, like on Redd and even the great Kobe Bryant.

Then we make comments on how Maggette can't play the 2 or can't guard it. Well you have Tony in there and keep Corey at the 3. It's not like Posey is that great of a defender against SG's either. Against some yes, but he's not the answer for all as it's being alluded to... he's more useful with the SF/PF types. There's also Giddens to consider... he has the makings to be a useful defender, at the 2 in particular.

Ah, why don't we bring Powe to this discussion? All playoffs long I was explaining why Doc wouldn't use Powe, because of his poor rotations. And suddenly Doc is a moron, as far as the blog is concerned for not playing Powe. Double-standard maybe? It's OK to play Powe over PJ even though he's an inferior defender (oh how many times through the playoffs were we crying for some offense from the bench?), but maybe it's not quite alright to have Maggette over Posey? I'm not saying you're one of those, but these are the types of discussions that go around here.

Posey played great defense for us, but he was a step slower (even with 10 teps slower he's still a better defender than most), but when brought up it's suddenly nitpicking. He was good against LeBron... but not in all games. He was excellent in the first game, but after that LeBron started getting the better of him to the point that people in this blog where screaming at Doc when he put Posey on him instead of Pierce through stretches. And excuse me about Posey and Kobe, Posey didn't do that good of a job on Kobe. The team certainly did a magnificent job on Kobe, but Posey wasn't that good on him as alluded to. Shall I bring Rip Hamilton? Na', he shouldn't be a factor here.

Posey was great defensively, good defensive rotations, good at the passing lanes, etc.... but guarding the star players in particular he wasn't the defensive god that he has been made to be. He made good on the Walton's, but the Kobe's... not really, he was adequate at best. Or I guess I shouldn't put too much weight on how our team defense made it so Kobe had to go through 3 defenders in order to get to the basket, we shouldn't put too much weight on the defensive rotation of our bigs that were the most vital... always putting 2 or 3 bodies between the star players and the basket. Maggette can't be one of those bodies? Pierce was the only one that really was effective guarding Kobe straight up. Everyone else needed help from the others, including Posey.

Man, I went rambling... but since this is going to be my last post on this subject so be it.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one -- which is just how it is sometimes.  Either way, I thank you for the discussion.

That being said, if I take exception to one comment here, it's the following: "I'm done with the subject. It's clear to me that everyone seems to have an agenda to push, and in order to push it everything needs to be either black or white. There's no gray area, there's no middle ground."

I've worked tirelessly throughout the Posey-Maggette discussion in particular to make it clear that this hasn't been the case for me -- and I'd be surprised if several of our members didn't feel the same way.  I've made every effort to indicate that I'm not a Maggette-basher (in fact, I've referred to myself as a 'fan' of his on several occasions), that my comments in favor of keeping Posey shouldn't come off as a suggestion that Maggette wouldn't be a good acquisition, that I'd rather have Posey.  That seems like the furthest thing from the 'black-and-white' you describe, in my book.

I realize that your comments weren't personal and were directed at the board in general, but since they came in response to mine, I wanted to take a moment to clarify that.  And the fact that my TA comments don't come merely from the Billups game but from four years of watching the guy play.

Again, though we don't see eye-to-eye on this, I'm looking forward to rallying around whatever group of players the Celtics assemble for 2008-09, and I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion.

-sw

[BudweiserCeltic]

All I'm saying that you shouldn't have to rely on one or the other if you have a properly balanced team. If you told me to choose from a team that's great defensively vs. a team that's great offensively I'd lean towards the defensive team. But if you told me to choose between those two, and a team that's good offensively and good defensively I'd choose that one.

So, just because I want a legit scorer off the bench it suddenly means that we'll fill the whole bench with crappy defensive players? There has to be a balance, and in NONE of my posts have I suggested that we go and do that.

Well, I want balance as well. And what wing rotation is more balanced?

1) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Poor man's Pierce who can't defend and play the 2
2) Ray Allen-Paul Pierce-Elite wing defender who can guard the opp. best player at both positions
?

If only it were that simple. I've said it before, that Corey Maggette's offense is so good that it more than makes up for his deficiencies defensively as compared to Posey. And he isn't the bum defensively that he's being made out to be. I hate the hyperbole. And he's a guy that can get production with limited touches. I know he's better with his hands on the ball, but for the simple fact that he gets to the line as often as he does makes him a guarantee, in my eyes, to be productive offensively off the bench. I can easily see him taking 10 shot attempts (without counting the times he goes to the line) and scoring 15+ points a game. He's already played that role countless times through his career (OK maybe a couple of seasons).

But seeing in your question to me, I spot the problem. You guys are limiting your roster. There's nothing stopping the Celtics from getting Corey Maggette and getting a wing defender, like Tony Allen (if that's all we can get) or some other player. We still have to see what Giddens can bring to the defensive side of our team. We have to see how we fill our big man rotation. We have to see how we fill our PG situation (if he's big enough to guard SG too). But to me, getting Corey Maggette over James Posey puts us in a much better position as we start to fill our bench and start approaching other holes.

He's quite a good rebounder too.

Where does your assessment of the bolded statement come from?  Virtually each of the people on this board who has attested to watching Maggette extensively this season has readily assessed him as a below average-to-poor defender at best.  That doesn't come from blocks and steals numbers -- that comes from the folks who watched him play, CoachBo in particular -- but there have definitely been a few others.  Furthermore, how else do you think it is that he has garnered a reputation from beat writers, television analysts and other observers around the league as a defender who loses focus and doesn't get after it well enough on that end of the floor?  I have a hard time believing folks are just making stuff up about Maggette.  From what I've watched, he's no great shakes on D, but I'll happily defer to those who have watched him with more regularity than I do -- and virtually all of them seem to say that -- to put it kindly -- that end of the floor isn't his forte.  You've now asserted that said reputation is unfair but haven't backed that claim up with either statistical or anecdotal evidence.  What have you seen that would indicate Maggette's rep to be a public misconception?

I think a big part of my disagreement with you on this, Bud, is the idea you discuss about being able to sign Maggette and a wing defender "like Tony Allen."  If Tony Allen is the caliber of wing defender this team is replacing Posey with, I'm not thrilled at all.  Allen has an excellent physique and physical tools, and to his credit, he plays hard.  But he also plays consistently thoughtless basketball (save for a pleasant ten minutes in the Finals).  Jumping at every up-fake, taking high-risk, low-reward gambling lunges in the passing lanes and being overzealous to the point of committing needless fouls makes a player far more of a hindrance than a help to his team.  I'm not looking to turn this into a debate over TA's merit, but since you brought him up as a possible replacement-type defender for Posey, I'd like to clarify how big a drop-off that is at this point in time on the defensive end.

Undoubtedly, it's a solid idea to be great on both sides of the ball, but I fully share with Coach and cordobes the idea that the primary emphasis must be on playing defense.  Defensive teams come to play every night and don't have to worry about having a particularly high percentage of shots fall in order to win games.  As Coach mentions, great defensive teams create offensive opportunities for themselves both by making the opponent work on the offensive end (thus sapping their energy on D) and with steals, rebounds and quick outlet passes that lead to points in transition.  The most recent example of this that I can point you to is none other than the 2007-08 Boston Celtics.  But almost without exception, every championship team in recent memory played excellently efficient (points per possession) defense.

I'm not suggesting that the Celtics can't win with Maggette -- I've written about this in the Babble and several other related threads already -- or that they would necessarily lose all of their defensive edge.  But I know what James Posey gives this team, and in my book, that defensive edge trumps Maggette's instant offense -- as enticing as it is -- any day.  I'll happily welcome Maggette to the fold if he is the guy, and I'll hope that many of us are proven wrong as he picks up his intensity and becomes an (at least) adequate defender and helps propel this team to banner 18.  But until the deals are signed and sealed, I can't help but see more sense in Posey for the reasons delineated above -- and for all those that the likes of cordobes, Coach and winsomme (as well as a few others, too) have made clear thus far.

One final point -- You refer to Maggette as "quite a good rebounder."  What is the frame of reference being used here?  Since the conversation has been about Posey and Maggette, I'm going to presume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the  implication of the comment was as a comparison with Posey.  To that effect, I remind you that Posey and Maggette are almost exactly equal in per-minute rebounding production for their careers, with Posey actually a tenth of a rebound better per 36 minutes, 6.3 to 6.2.  Furthermore, last season Posey averaged 6.4 boards per 36 minutes to Maggette's 5.7.  I point this out because the Celtics played the 18th quickest pace in the league to the Clippers' 11th.  Just some food for thought.

-sw

Ah, so all you require are anecdotal stories similar to those earlier last year when people were drawing conclusions about Eddie House's and Ray Allen's lack of defense. Those types of anecdotes? You should know by now that people like to overemphasize some points and use hyperboles to diminish the value one player might present in order to make the case for another player of their choice.

Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense. Team defense, help defense... is that suddenly a myth we created that is no longer valid once we lose Posey?

And no, I wasn't trying to say that Corey is a better rebounder than Posey. I'm just saying that he's capable of the little things too, you know like many of us like to reffer to rebounding as one of those little things.

But whatever, I'm done with the subject. It's clear to me that everyone seems to have an agenda to push, and in order to push it everything needs to be either black or white. There's no gray area, there's no middle ground. That's why labels are used to describe players...it's easier that way. Someone says Maggette's defense sucks, and it sticks with him... he's incapable of commiting to defense, he's incapable of playing on our defensive system, our defensive system is incapable of lending its strength to help the guy on defense... nothing suddenly applies to him.

As for the Tony Allen bit, once again getting the reputation on up-fakes based on one play. Yeah, once in a while he falls for them, but most are drawing the conclusion in that famous Billups play. I wonder how many made comments about his defense being that "poor" before that occured. How easy it's to forget about those moments when he does play good defense, like on Redd and even the great Kobe Bryant.

Then we make comments on how Maggette can't play the 2 or can't guard it. Well you have Tony in there and keep Corey at the 3. It's not like Posey is that great of a defender against SG's either. Against some yes, but he's not the answer for all as it's being alluded to... he's more useful with the SF/PF types. There's also Giddens to consider... he has the makings to be a useful defender, at the 2 in particular.

Ah, why don't we bring Powe to this discussion? All playoffs long I was explaining why Doc wouldn't use Powe, because of his poor rotations. And suddenly Doc is a moron, as far as the blog is concerned for not playing Powe. Double-standard maybe? It's OK to play Powe over PJ even though he's an inferior defender (oh how many times through the playoffs were we crying for some offense from the bench?), but maybe it's not quite alright to have Maggette over Posey? I'm not saying you're one of those, but these are the types of discussions that go around here.

Posey played great defense for us, but he was a step slower (even with 10 teps slower he's still a better defender than most), but when brought up it's suddenly nitpicking. He was good against LeBron... but not in all games. He was excellent in the first game, but after that LeBron started getting the better of him to the point that people in this blog where screaming at Doc when he put Posey on him instead of Pierce through stretches. And excuse me about Posey and Kobe, Posey didn't do that good of a job on Kobe. The team certainly did a magnificent job on Kobe, but Posey wasn't that good on him as alluded to. Shall I bring Rip Hamilton? Na', he shouldn't be a factor here.

Posey was great defensively, good defensive rotations, good at the passing lanes, etc.... but guarding the star players in particular he wasn't the defensive god that he has been made to be. He made good on the Walton's, but the Kobe's... not really, he was adequate at best. Or I guess I shouldn't put too much weight on how our team defense made it so Kobe had to go through 3 defenders in order to get to the basket, we shouldn't put too much weight on the defensive rotation of our bigs that were the most vital... always putting 2 or 3 bodies between the star players and the basket. Maggette can't be one of those bodies? Pierce was the only one that really was effective guarding Kobe straight up. Everyone else needed help from the others, including Posey.

Man, I went rambling... but since this is going to be my last post on this subject so be it.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one -- which is just how it is sometimes.  Either way, I thank you for the discussion.

That being said, if I take exception to one comment here, it's the following: "I'm done with the subject. It's clear to me that everyone seems to have an agenda to push, and in order to push it everything needs to be either black or white. There's no gray area, there's no middle ground."

I've worked tirelessly throughout the Posey-Maggette discussion in particular to make it clear that this hasn't been the case for me -- and I'd be surprised if several of our members didn't feel the same way.  I've made every effort to indicate that I'm not a Maggette-basher (in fact, I've referred to myself as a 'fan' of his on several occasions), that my comments in favor of keeping Posey shouldn't come off as a suggestion that Maggette wouldn't be a good acquisition, that I'd rather have Posey.  That seems like the furthest thing from the 'black-and-white' you describe, in my book.

I realize that your comments weren't personal and were directed at the board in general, but since they came in response to mine, I wanted to take a moment to clarify that.  And the fact that my TA comments don't come merely from the Billups game but from four years of watching the guy play.

Again, though we don't see eye-to-eye on this, I'm looking forward to rallying around whatever group of players the Celtics assemble for 2008-09, and I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion.

-sw

Oh, certainly not at you... sorry if it came out that way. I always talk in general even when I quote someone in particular. If I reffer to someone I reffer by name. I enjoy the discussions, but I know when it's going no where so it's best to not continue it.

I just hate it when in order to make ones position look good, there's some sort of need to make a player be somewhat of the trash that there aren't. It's normal occurrance when discussions and arguments go about, but when there's that sort of stance it's hard to go anywhere as far as discussions go.

I can understand one's position that you like our strong defensive team better, and that's why you want Posey etc. I respect that opinion. I certainly don't like when Maggette is suddenly made out to be the huge defensive bum that will kill our defense. It's so far fetched as far as I'm concerned, when we have still some capable defenders. We will still get some capable defenders. I know our defense won't be as strong, but I think the tradeoff offensively is warranted. I can respect if someone disagrees, but we don't have to make it seem as our defense will suddenly become crap because we lose Posey and get Maggette with taking little consideration for the rest of our roster and the role they will play in our team.  That's all.

Lol, you baited me into another response, so this will be the last one... just wanted to clarify the talking in general part.