Why Not Douglas Roberts? Why Not Chalmers?

[cordobes]

cordobes said:

I like CDR, but he's being overrated here. He benefited immensely from the system Calipari runs in Memphis, with all that penetration and kick out (Brokeback Mountain, as Phil said). Perimeter defenders in the NBA are much more quick recovering than those that CDR faced in college, so it won't be so easy for him to step past them or take open shots. I think this question has merits: would he be such a good slasher without a pg that didn't demand so much help defense in the lane like Rose did? Also, he'll have to read screens and post up in the NBA and I don't know if he's good doing that. I mean, can he create his own shot in another type of offense? I don't know... and neither does he, I guess. Anyway, if we draft him, I'll watch his games again to form a more solid opinion, as I was more interested in Rose the first time.

My educated guess: CDR is not as good as he looks. If I was giving him a workout, I'd like to see how well does he screen, posts, reads screens, how really good is his first step, etc. If he didn't workout well, I can easily understand why he fell.

Chalmers...because they like Pruitt.

I've never seen JR Giddens play and I don't like to form opinions by reading public reports. I know he was conference co-Player of the Year with Cummard and I know Cummard is a good basketball player.

He's got 3 years of great production by every metric available (almost every advanced stat dude loves him), whereas Gidden has 4 years of bad production by the same metrics.

Epic fail.

Link?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/J.R.-Giddens-74/stats/
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Douglas-Roberts-506/stats/

Yeps, but in spite of that, lots of statistic driven teams, including Boston, passed on him. I'm a statistics guy myself, but there are things that stats can't tell: was he productive because of the system and teammates or is he really good?

Calipari's system is very uncommon in the NBA. Which NBA team wants a winger who have trouble reading screens? Who doesn't run off pindowns? Who doesn't have a great courtvision? Who relies heavily in slashing but doesn't have a good enough first step?

What's funny about this is the Celtics offense IS dribble drive motion oriented.  It's a little bit toned down, and it tends to break down if Rondo is out or we're just in one of our offensive funks, but by and large it's our offensive philosophy.  http://coachingbetterbball.blogspot.com/2008/02/celtics-dribble-drive-motion-offense.html

As for the notion that Giddens > CDR because of workouts.. man I hate that.  Workouts are way less meaningful than college production.

But I am warming up to Giddens.. hearing good things from lots of sources, Danny's late round draft record.. could just be something we're all missing. But I still think he won't shoot worth a [dang].  Hopefully he can still get to the rim.

I know what kind of offenses the Celtics play... and to some extent, that's why I always said that I liked CDR on the Celtics, I think he would fit well (even though the dribble drive motion is not "by and large our offensive philosophy"). But the dribble drive motion we play it's far from being the exact same offense they run in Memphis. I mean, there are dozens of motion offenses.  John Calipari uses Coach Wahlburg's offense, where screening is virtually nonexistent. Nobody plays like that in the NBA. The wingers have patterned passing lanes. Nobody plays like that in the NBA. And essentially, NBA defenders are so exponentially better than college ones that the comparison lacks sense.

I think that workouts are very important for a player like CDR. If I was a GM, I'd be designing especial drills for him: running off quick hitting screens and pindowns, fighting through screens in the defensive end, read screens and do the cut, posting up, screen/rolls, etc. 

In the end, CDR may very well be a player that isn't exceptionally quick or athletic for NBA standards, but relies heavily in his quickness and athleticism. If he performed poorly in the workouts, that's probably the case. 

I always thought he could be a Jim Jackson kind of player, but after learning he was crap in workouts - and being pretty sure about what kind of workouts teams made him face - I think he should probably play in the NBDL next season.

[OhioGreen]

Just a note, but Walker's KState coach said that Walker was one of the SMARTEST basketball players hes ever coached! Gotta love that. Freak athlete, great potential, great BBIQ! Unlike GG--freak athlete,great potential, NO BBIQ!

[P2]

Just a note, but Walker's KState coach said that Walker was one of the SMARTEST basketball players hes ever coached! Gotta love that. Freak athlete, great potential, great BBIQ! Unlike GG--freak athlete,great potential, NO BBIQ!

Yeah, he just slipped to 47 because of his two ACL injuries and his recent one which will cause him to miss 3 weeks after surgery. But the potential is amazing. He was projected as a Top 5 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft before his injury in January 2007, and a lottery pick before his injury at a Warriors workout.

[Finkelskyhook]

Gorman probably told Danny that he didn't want to broadcast a player with 3 names.

[40yrceltsfan]

I don't know much about Giddens, but I know he's had character issues and had to transfer from Kansas. He's a great athlete as well, but honestly, I think Chalmers or CDR would've been a much better pick. Chalmers could've been that backup point guard from the get go. CDR could've contributed off the bench quite well. The guy I really wanted was Courtney Lee, but with Orlando grabbing him at 22, I think CDR or Chalmers were far and away the best two option for us.

CDR s**cks, plain and simple. He will not be a success in the NBA, that's why he slid so far.

We have a point guard, so why take Chalmers? I think he'll be good, but Ainge wants a veteran as his backup point guard.

[Roy Hobbs]

According to the Herald, we didn't take CDR due to his defense:

Of all the scenarios they had for the last pick of the first round, one player was absolutely not part of the picture:

Douglas-Roberts.

The Celtics personnel and coaching staffs had reached a quick consensus not to take him.

He may have all of the scoring attributes of J.R. Giddens, the New Mexico guard ultimately taken in that spot by the C’s.

But the Celtics were able to determine early that CDR doesn’t come close defensively to Giddens or the player they later took for cash considerations -- the hobbled Bill Walker.

Link.

[BudweiserCeltic]

According to the Herald, we didn't take CDR due to his defense:

Of all the scenarios they had for the last pick of the first round, one player was absolutely not part of the picture:

Douglas-Roberts.

The Celtics personnel and coaching staffs had reached a quick consensus not to take him.

He may have all of the scoring attributes of J.R. Giddens, the New Mexico guard ultimately taken in that spot by the C’s.

But the Celtics were able to determine early that CDR doesn’t come close defensively to Giddens or the player they later took for cash considerations -- the hobbled Bill Walker.

Link.

No surprise here.  I think analysts and media experts get so enamored with the offensive prowess of players that overlook the impact some players have on the other side of the ball.

I mean, from what I've seen Giddens should be a good defender with long arms, and then you add his rebounding skills? Seems like a no-brainer to me as to why the Celtics would pick him over CDR.

[cdif911]

According to the Herald, we didn't take CDR due to his defense:

Of all the scenarios they had for the last pick of the first round, one player was absolutely not part of the picture:

Douglas-Roberts.

The Celtics personnel and coaching staffs had reached a quick consensus not to take him.

He may have all of the scoring attributes of J.R. Giddens, the New Mexico guard ultimately taken in that spot by the C’s.

But the Celtics were able to determine early that CDR doesn’t come close defensively to Giddens or the player they later took for cash considerations -- the hobbled Bill Walker.

Link.

No surprise here.  I think analysts and media experts get so enamored with the offensive prowess of players that overlook the impact some players have on the other side of the ball.

I mean, from what I've seen Giddens should be a good defender with long arms, and then you add his rebounding skills? Seems like a no-brainer to me as to why the Celtics would pick him over CDR.

CDR wasn't a standout defensively, but I do think in a system like the Celtics, he'd figure out really fast he needs to work on it or sit on the bench - to bring a guy in like Giddens though who already has the defensive toughness, will make him that much better as a part of the team D

I will say, I was hoping for CDR, I loved his intensity, his unorthodox game, seemed like a fun fit, but in Danny I Trust

[kozlodoev]

According to the Herald, we didn't take CDR due to his defense:

Of all the scenarios they had for the last pick of the first round, one player was absolutely not part of the picture:

Douglas-Roberts.

The Celtics personnel and coaching staffs had reached a quick consensus not to take him.

He may have all of the scoring attributes of J.R. Giddens, the New Mexico guard ultimately taken in that spot by the C’s.

But the Celtics were able to determine early that CDR doesn’t come close defensively to Giddens or the player they later took for cash considerations -- the hobbled Bill Walker.

Link.

No surprise here.  I think analysts and media experts get so enamored with the offensive prowess of players that overlook the impact some players have on the other side of the ball.

I mean, from what I've seen Giddens should be a good defender with long arms, and then you add his rebounding skills? Seems like a no-brainer to me as to why the Celtics would pick him over CDR.

CDR wasn't a standout defensively, but I do think in a system like the Celtics, he'd figure out really fast he needs to work on it or sit on the bench - to bring a guy in like Giddens though who already has the defensive toughness, will make him that much better as a part of the team D

I will say, I was hoping for CDR, I loved his intensity, his unorthodox game, seemed like a fun fit, but in Danny I Trust

Why do we need Posey then? With the system like the Celtics, you can pick someone like, I don't know, JJ Reddick and he'll figure out he needs to work on defense or sit out. Plus, he comes with bonus offensive skills.

[timepiece33]

CDR wasn't a standout defensively, but I do think in a system like the Celtics, he'd figure out really fast he needs to work on it or sit on the bench - to bring a guy in like Giddens though who already has the defensive toughness, will make him that much better as a part of the team D

Great defenders have a chip on their shoulders that is difficult to teach.

I still am kind of surprised we didn't take Mario Chalmers, but I can understand the Giddens pick.

[kozlodoev]

CDR wasn't a standout defensively, but I do think in a system like the Celtics, he'd figure out really fast he needs to work on it or sit on the bench - to bring a guy in like Giddens though who already has the defensive toughness, will make him that much better as a part of the team D

Great defenders have a chip on their shoulders that is difficult to teach.

I still am kind of surprised we didn't take Mario Chalmers, but I can understand the Giddens pick.

The C's staff warmed to Giddens because he could 'make things happen defensively'. This is a pretty high praise, since I think I've only heard this particular one attached to a handful of guys on our roster: Garnett, Rondo and pre-injuries Tony Allen come to mind right away.

[cordobes]

Why do you guys think CDR is such a bad defender that he was immediately and consensually ruled out?

Considering:

He may have all of the scoring attributes of J.R. Giddens

- I don't think that Giddens was drafted because of his offense, although I've never seen him playing.

- CDR was never outstanding as a defender when in college but he was never considered a bad defender, was he?