Paul Pierce Best Small Forward in NBA?

[hpantazo]

I think too many people here still overestimate the value of athleticism. Lebron is far more athletic, but right now, today, Pierce is the better overall player, regardless of who is on their respective teams. I agree that lebron has the skills to be better than Pierce, and one day soon will be, but he's not there yet. Despite Pierce's lack of blazing athleticism, he always gets to the basket, finished well, can rebound and defend almost anyone, and makes excellent decisions with the ball to open it up for his teamates. This has obviously not always been the case with him, and it took him a long time to mature mentally to get to this point, but he has, and lebron has not yet.

[Farid33]

Dirk is a PF and his two first round exits in a row should pretty much preclude him from this conversation anyway. Also I wasn't trying to exclude Lebron from the debate so that Pierce would be #1, I was trying to make the case that Lebron isn't really a small forward, despite the SF next to his name on all-star ballots. He takes the ball up, and sets up his teams offense on almost every possesion. I'm not saying he's a point guard, but there aren't any other small forwards who have the ball in their hands as much as he does. Also there is no debate about whether Pierce is better than Lebron. Lebron is King and we all know that. But whether he's really a small forward, I'm not convinced about that.

[LarBrd33]

Yeah, Lebron is obviously ahead of PP, and the scary thing is PP has maybe 3-4 good years left, Lebron has at least 10.....I'm amazed guys haven't flocked to Cleveland to help him out, as that's a title team with the right supporting cast...

It's sick how good LeBron is.  Really.  I mentioned this before the playoffs started, but... if you look at that Cavs team it's interesting how similar they are to our 24 win team last year.  Obviously they played a lot better defense, but just look at the players top to bottom.  If you replace LeBron with Pierce you have:

Z = Big Al
Delonte = Delonte
Wally = Wally
Gibson = rookie rondo

Basically, LeBron is the difference between a 24 win lotto team and taking a team 7 games against the World Champions.

I don't say this to be anti-Boston or anything.  Pierce is my favorite player and I couldn't be happier.   But he definitely had help out there.  Two 20 point scorers.  KG was fantastic throughout the playoffs averaging 20 and 11.   Ray was phenomenal in the finals averaging 20 while shooting RIDICULOUS percentages (51% FG... and 52% from three).   LeBron's best teammates were Delonte and Wally.  Kinda silly.

But yes... I'd take Pierce #2 probably.

[crownsy]

but lebron also does all that, and on a worse team.

i know we love to call him overrated, but lets be honest, the man came an assist and a reboudn away from AVERGAING A TRIPLE DOUBLE.

the points you can chalk up to he shoots alot on a bad team, but he's also an excellent rebounder, and to get 9 assists on that team, which has terrable finshers for the most part (Z and west are good) is amazing.

I lvoe paul, he got me into the celtics, he's my favroite player, but lebron is better. He's pierce with 2 extra inches, a ton more speed, and 30 pounds....

[hpantazo]

Though I probably wouldn't seriously make this case, I think an argument could be made that Pierce may have the edge on LeBron now because of his superior outside shot.  As the Celtic defense showed, you can make LeBron an ineffective scorer by keeping him on the perimeter.  The same can't be said of Pierce. 

Now of course LeBron has numerous gifts that Pierce doesn't, but in terms of being able to shut him down offensively, Pierce may have the edge.  And when you consider where Pierce is in terms of defense, well maybe there is a case for Pierce as the best SF in basketball, at least right this second. 

That's not correct.   Pierce is my favorite player in the league... but LeBron is an entirely different level. 

As much as people want to compare Pierce's offensive stats vs LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs it's just silly.  If Pierce was alone going up against that Boston defense, he'd be totally shut down.

That's also why I'm not seriously making the argument.  Just playing some Devil's Advocate. 

I still think that LeBron's inconsistent outside shot is still a huge hole in his game.  And while I'd still give him the edge over Pierce, I'd say it's less of a gap than some would think because of that. 

if the roles were reversed and you put LeBron on the Celtics with KG and Ray, he'd have a field day.  He was able to take the Celtics to 7 games by himself and dump 45 on us in the deciding game.   Bron is unquestionably better.

But I think the debate is Dirk vs Pierce for #2.  Some might throw Melo's name in there too, but I see him as just a prolific scorer right now.  Maybe as he gets older he can become a more complete player as Pierce has.

Dirk had his chances with great supporting casts and choked them away, and doesn't play much d either. As for lebron, I don't know how people can say he single handedly took the cavs to game 7. Ilgauskas, Delonte, and Wally are not chopped liver, they gave him a great rebounder and post player, and guys that can hit the three and spread to floor for him on offense.

[celticmaestro]

second best easily behind lebron and ahead of anyone else.

defensively he's better than lebron but lebron has everything else.

[wdleehi]

second best easily behind lebron and ahead of anyone else.

defensively he's better than lebron but lebron has everything else.

I think they are closer defensively then we like to think. 


Who did a better job guarding Pierce this year then Lebron?  I think he just need to be motivated more often like he is motivated against Pierce. 

[Celtic]

I've said for a long time that it's Lebron and Paul at the top of their position, you have to give Lebron the top spot, Pierce is a close second, and then there is a huge drop off. The national media has just realized how great a player Paul is, it's kind of funny since we have known all along what he is capable of, which lead me to thinking where does he rank out of all the players in the league. After the playoffs I don't think you can put guys like: T-Mac, Duncan, Wade, Dirk, Nash ahead of him any more. The only players in the league I would consider better than or at Paul's level would be: Kobe, Lebron, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, KG, after that it's all a debate.

[LarBrd33]

Though I probably wouldn't seriously make this case, I think an argument could be made that Pierce may have the edge on LeBron now because of his superior outside shot.  As the Celtic defense showed, you can make LeBron an ineffective scorer by keeping him on the perimeter.  The same can't be said of Pierce. 

Now of course LeBron has numerous gifts that Pierce doesn't, but in terms of being able to shut him down offensively, Pierce may have the edge.  And when you consider where Pierce is in terms of defense, well maybe there is a case for Pierce as the best SF in basketball, at least right this second. 

That's not correct.   Pierce is my favorite player in the league... but LeBron is an entirely different level. 

As much as people want to compare Pierce's offensive stats vs LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs it's just silly.  If Pierce was alone going up against that Boston defense, he'd be totally shut down.

That's also why I'm not seriously making the argument.  Just playing some Devil's Advocate. 

I still think that LeBron's inconsistent outside shot is still a huge hole in his game.  And while I'd still give him the edge over Pierce, I'd say it's less of a gap than some would think because of that. 

if the roles were reversed and you put LeBron on the Celtics with KG and Ray, he'd have a field day.  He was able to take the Celtics to 7 games by himself and dump 45 on us in the deciding game.   Bron is unquestionably better.

But I think the debate is Dirk vs Pierce for #2.  Some might throw Melo's name in there too, but I see him as just a prolific scorer right now.  Maybe as he gets older he can become a more complete player as Pierce has.

Dirk had his chances with great supporting casts and choked them away, and doesn't play much d either. As for lebron, I don't know how people can say he single handedly took the cavs to game 7. Ilgauskas, Delonte, and Wally are not chopped liver, they gave him a great rebounder and post player, and guys that can hit the three and spread to floor for him on offense.

Guys like that (or actually, those guys specifically) helped Pierce win 24 games last year.   Look i'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just saying there is no debate.  Pierce had far superior help this year.   Pierce had the best defensive team in the NBA backing him up and hall of fame teammates making big contributions.  Pierce was definitely outstanding, but I honestly believe there is no way in hell Pierce would have been this effective if the roles were reversed.  You put Pierce on the Cavs with Delonte and Wally and you think he takes Bron and the Celtic defense to 7 games?  No way... not happening.

Pierce's team definitely outplayed the Cavs (barely), but... on an individual level you could even make the case that Bron outplayed Pierce:

Pierce:  19.4 points, 5.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, .83 steals, .67 blocks
LeBron:  26.7 points, 6.4 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.3 blocks

Bron had 45 in game 7... Pierce had 41.      But the Celtics came away with the victory as expected.    

If we're comparing player vs player though... you'd be nuts to take Pierce over LeBron.  And that's not to dismiss what Pierce has accomplished.  I'm just being realistic here.

In my mind, these playoffs just made it clear that Kobe should no longer be considered the "best player on the planet".  I'd take LeBron over him.  That guy was nearly unstoppable.  Celtics had one of the best defenses in NBA history and Bron nearly took them down by himself.

[saibnel]

Pierce is like my son, I have been following him since I saw him play in the boston shoot out when he was 17 and just destroy everyone. I have a man crush of unnatural proportions.

That being said, to say he is better then lebron is assinine. It just isnt true. That gap isnt huge but it is sizeable enough where you can not seriously argue the point.

pp is the second best 3 in the league, and a top 12 player. oh - and a champion, Nothing wrong with that!

Also someone put him ahead of duncan in this thread, that seems a little ambitious.

Paul is a great player and it is about time he gets his due.

[celticsfan34]

No...take off the green shades. Lebron is still the best SF in the league.

[hpantazo]

Though I probably wouldn't seriously make this case, I think an argument could be made that Pierce may have the edge on LeBron now because of his superior outside shot.  As the Celtic defense showed, you can make LeBron an ineffective scorer by keeping him on the perimeter.  The same can't be said of Pierce. 

Now of course LeBron has numerous gifts that Pierce doesn't, but in terms of being able to shut him down offensively, Pierce may have the edge.  And when you consider where Pierce is in terms of defense, well maybe there is a case for Pierce as the best SF in basketball, at least right this second. 

That's not correct.   Pierce is my favorite player in the league... but LeBron is an entirely different level. 

As much as people want to compare Pierce's offensive stats vs LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs it's just silly.  If Pierce was alone going up against that Boston defense, he'd be totally shut down.

That's also why I'm not seriously making the argument.  Just playing some Devil's Advocate. 

I still think that LeBron's inconsistent outside shot is still a huge hole in his game.  And while I'd still give him the edge over Pierce, I'd say it's less of a gap than some would think because of that. 

if the roles were reversed and you put LeBron on the Celtics with KG and Ray, he'd have a field day.  He was able to take the Celtics to 7 games by himself and dump 45 on us in the deciding game.   Bron is unquestionably better.

But I think the debate is Dirk vs Pierce for #2.  Some might throw Melo's name in there too, but I see him as just a prolific scorer right now.  Maybe as he gets older he can become a more complete player as Pierce has.

Dirk had his chances with great supporting casts and choked them away, and doesn't play much d either. As for lebron, I don't know how people can say he single handedly took the cavs to game 7. Ilgauskas, Delonte, and Wally are not chopped liver, they gave him a great rebounder and post player, and guys that can hit the three and spread to floor for him on offense.

Guys like that (or actually, those guys specifically) helped Pierce win 24 games last year.   Look i'm not trying to be argumentative I'm just saying there is no debate.  Pierce had far superior help this year.   Pierce had the best defensive team in the NBA backing him up and hall of fame teammates making big contributions.  Pierce was definitely outstanding, but I honestly believe there is no way in hell Pierce would have been this effective if the roles were reversed.  You put Pierce on the Cavs with Delonte and Wally and you think he takes Bron and the Celtic defense to 7 games?  No way... not happening.

Pierce's team definitely outplayed the Cavs (barely), but... on an individual level you could even make the case that Bron outplayed Pierce:

Pierce:  19.4 points, 5.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists, .83 steals, .67 blocks
LeBron:  26.7 points, 6.4 rebounds, 7.6 assists, 2.1 steals, 1.3 blocks

Bron had 45 in game 7... Pierce had 42.      But the Celtics came away with the victory as expected.    

If we're comparing player vs player though... you'd be nuts to take Pierce over LeBron.  And that's not to dismiss what Pierce has accomplished.  I'm just being realistic here.

In my mind, these playoffs just made it clear that Kobe is no longer the "best player on the planet".  I'd take LeBron over him.  That guy was nearly unstoppable.

If I were building a team to win now, let's say for the summer olympics for example, and not concerned about the future, I would take Pierce over Lebron, and his maturity and outside shot is a big part of that. Call me nuts, but I said last summer after we got KG we would win it all this year, and I said Pierce would outplay Kobe when we got to the finals, and people called me nuts then too.

[crownsy]

Dirk is a PF and his two first round exits in a row should pretty much preclude him from this conversation anyway. Also I wasn't trying to exclude Lebron from the debate so that Pierce would be #1, I was trying to make the case that Lebron isn't really a small forward, despite the SF next to his name on all-star ballots. He takes the ball up, and sets up his teams offense on almost every possesion. I'm not saying he's a point guard, but there aren't any other small forwards who have the ball in their hands as much as he does. Also there is no debate about whether Pierce is better than Lebron. Lebron is King and we all know that. But whether he's really a small forward, I'm not convinced about that.

but that is excluding him based on criteria specificly to make pierce the best SF.

pierce also brings the ball up, he ran our offense through the pick and roll for long stretches in detroit and LA. when rajon is out, pierce or allen often bring it up, that doesnt make them PG's

Lebron is a SF. end of story. under that argument, i could take kobe out of the SG rotation to move ray up. but it doesn't work that way.

[Bankshot]

1. Lebron
2. Pierce


I have no problem with PP being 2nd best.

[paintitgreen]

I've said for a long time that it's Lebron and Paul at the top of their position, you have to give Lebron the top spot, Pierce is a close second, and then there is a huge drop off. The national media has just realized how great a player Paul is, it's kind of funny since we have known all along what he is capable of, which lead me to thinking where does he rank out of all the players in the league. After the playoffs I don't think you can put guys like: T-Mac, Duncan, Wade, Dirk, Nash ahead of him any more. The only players in the league I would consider better than or at Paul's level would be: Kobe, Lebron, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, KG, after that it's all a debate.

You don't think anybody can put Duncan ahead of Pierce? Really? But you can put KG ahead of Pierce? I don't get it. Duncan and KG are essentially the same player. And Duncan, not KG, not Kobe, not Nash, was the single best player in the NBA from 2003 to 2007. Maybe Kobe and/or Lebron replaced him this year as the top, but Duncan is still ahead of or equal to KG right now. He gives you the same defense, leadership, rebounding and passing skill for a big man, less shooting range but a better post offense. There's a reason his teams have NEVER missed the playoffs.

On the original topic, yeah, Lebron is clearly the best and while I love Pierce, it's really not close. Pierce is number 2. Dirk's a PF, but a similar player, I'd put him close to Pierce if they were the same position. He can't give you the D, but (largely because of his height) is a better rebounder. I'd take Pierce second and Dirk third. Same thing for T-Mac. If he was a 3 (T-Mac's a 2 guard), I'd take him ahead of Carmelo or Butler, but I've always considered Pierce better because he's so much more consistent and I hope national media wakes up and realizes that. (Incidentally, I'd take Dirk over T-Mac because of health).

If it wasn't for the health factors, I'd want Caron Butler on my team right now ahead of Carmelo Anthony. But health is a factor and while Melo has underachieved in the NBA in my opinion (not that he hasn't done well but he should have exploited the Lakers' problem with defending SFs and clearly didn't), he's durable and a much larger skill set than Butler (even if he doesn't use it enough). I'd definitely take him third.

I'm glad Paul showed he should have been second team All-NBA this year. Hopefully he'll get it next year as payback for being robbed this year.