Paul Pierce Best Small Forward in NBA?

[celticmaestro]

I believe Smith could be in a top 3-4 discussion in a year or two.

lebron pierce melo butler are streets ahead.
durant could be streets ahead.

if he matures and becomes a team player instead of the next shawn marion then he's got the potential to be an all-star or better.

[Jon]

Yeah, Lebron is obviously ahead of PP, and the scary thing is PP has maybe 3-4 good years left, Lebron has at least 10.....I'm amazed guys haven't flocked to Cleveland to help him out, as that's a title team with the right supporting cast...

It's sick how good LeBron is.  Really.  I mentioned this before the playoffs started, but... if you look at that Cavs team it's interesting how similar they are to our 24 win team last year.  Obviously they played a lot better defense, but just look at the players top to bottom.  If you replace LeBron with Pierce you have:

Z = Big Al
Delonte = Delonte
Wally = Wally
Gibson = rookie rondo

Basically, LeBron is the difference between a 24 win lotto team and taking a team 7 games against the World Champions.

I don't say this to be anti-Boston or anything.  Pierce is my favorite player and I couldn't be happier.   But he definitely had help out there.  Two 20 point scorers.  KG was fantastic throughout the playoffs averaging 20 and 11.   Ray was phenomenal in the finals averaging 20 while shooting RIDICULOUS percentages (51% FG... and 52% from three).   LeBron's best teammates were Delonte and Wally.  Kinda silly.

But yes... I'd take Pierce #2 probably.

Let me first say that when all is said and done 20 years from now, LeBron will unquestionably be the better player over Pierce.  I'm not trying to argue that. 

All I was saying was that there's an argument to be made (that I probably don't buy myself) that Pierce was better this year. 

And while that certainly requires some stretching of the facts, your above argument stretches the facts as well.  Sure the Celtics won 24 games the year before, but that was with Wally playing a whopping 32 games, West limited to 69 games, Jefferson playing 69 games, and most importantly, Paul Pierce only playing 47 games.  If LeBron missed 35 games, the Cavs wouldn't have made the playoffs either.  And that's not even counting the fact that you leave guys like Joe Smith and Ben Wallace out of your equation, which obviously the 24-48 Celtics had no equivalents to. 

While I'll give LeBron some credit for keeping the series close, I think we also have to put a lot of blame on the Celtics for not showing up.  If the Celtics were playing like they played in the Finals in the second round, the C's would've swept the Cavs.

[zerophase]

it is not the type of player they resemble, its the position they play. the players define the position. pierce is not the best small forward. lebron is. pierce couldn't win without a good supporting cast, which is true for lebron, as he is going through the same thing right now.

[IMAfan]

Everyone keeps saying Paul led them to 24 wins last year. They are ignoring the fact that they were something like 1-36 when Paul was hurt last year.

Also, the Cavs had Ben Wallace and an infinitely better defense than last year's C's squad.

Lebron and even Kobe are no doubt more talented (including athleticism as a talent), than Pierce. But, If I have to win a game or a series, I am taking Pierce over LeBron (Not that much difference to me though) and especially Kobe. I can't remember watching a player over the last 15 years who just beats you like Pierce does. He can literally beat you with any aspect of his game (D, 3 pointers, passing, post play, foul line, rebounding). It is (dare I say) very Bird-esque. LeBron needs an outside shot before that can happen.

[TruthSerum]

Pierce is the best TEAM player in a TEAM sport. He's a good leader, a fast learner. He gets the job done. His timing is excellent, bordering on impeccable. His movement is magical & unpredictable. I think these are important criteria for evaluating how good he is while you're considering stats & athleticism, etc.  If Kobe & LeBron seem more like machines compared to #34 it's because they're not all heart like The Truth.

[crownsy]

Pierce is the best TEAM player in a TEAM sport. He's a good leader, a fast learner. He gets the job done. His timing is excellent, bordering on impeccable. His movement is magical & unpredictable. I think these are important criteria for evaluating how good he is while you're considering stats & athleticism, etc.  If Kobe & LeBron seem more like machines compared to #34 it's because they're not all heart like The Truth.

Lebron i s a pretty good leader, lets be honest. he took a terrable team last eyar and lead it past a very good pistons squad.

it's no disrespect to the captain to not be as good indivualy as lebron, bron bron is a once every 20 year player.

I'm sure paul will take the great team and trophy over being ranked 2nd at the SF posistion.

[jayc429]

Everyone keeps saying Paul led them to 24 wins last year. They are ignoring the fact that they were something like 1-36 when Paul was hurt last year.

We were 20-27 with Pierce which means we were 4-31 without him. HUGE difference people are just blowing off.
And you can't say LeBron took those same players that played with Pierce last year and got them to within a game of the conference finals. That's way too simplistic. LeBron also had Big Z, Daniel Gibson, Josh Smith, Anderson Varejao, etc.  Pierce had Gerald Green. Kendrick Perkins, and Ryan Gomes and Sebastian Telfair.  The only above average player he played with was AL and he only played well towards the end of the season and even then it was only on offense.  He stunk defensively, still does.

As for the World games, anybody who watched those games knows Pierce was the only player that showed up.  He played great.  He had one potential game tying play against Argentina where he mishandled a pass.  So I suppose if anyone wanted to be a jackass about it (George Karl) you could blame that loss on him.  But that was it.  Against Spain Paul was dishing like a crazy man and scoring at will.
Every time Karl took him out of the game Spain would go on a run.  Karl in his infinite wisdom decided not to play Pierce or Ben Wallace at all in the 4th quarter.  Our lead dwindled until it was gone completely and Spain won the game.
If you look at the stats of all the players in the games, not just USA but all of them, Pierce was head an shoulders above them all.  Yes, even the MVP Dirk. Dirk shot a miserable shooting percentage he just did his best Kobe imitation and took all of his teams shots.
George Karl has no one to blame but himself for how that team fared and he's tried to cover his butt ever since.  I'm with Tommy.  Karl is a jackass.  Anyone who can't get along with Ray Allen has to have problems.

[hpantazo]

Everyone keeps saying Paul led them to 24 wins last year. They are ignoring the fact that they were something like 1-36 when Paul was hurt last year.

Also, the Cavs had Ben Wallace and an infinitely better defense than last year's C's squad.

Lebron and even Kobe are no doubt more talented (including athleticism as a talent), than Pierce. But, If I have to win a game or a series, I am taking Pierce over LeBron (Not that much difference to me though) and especially Kobe. I can't remember watching a player over the last 15 years who just beats you like Pierce does. He can literally beat you with any aspect of his game (D, 3 pointers, passing, post play, foul line, rebounding). It is (dare I say) very Bird-esque. LeBron needs an outside shot before that can happen.

TP for you, that's what I mean, Pierce missed a large part of last season, and so did most of our starters, so you cannot say that Pierce led them to 24 wins and that was the best he could do. If that team was healthy last year they could have taken the cavs in the playoffs. That doesn't mean much because both of them would have gotten swept in the finals, but don't create this imaginary difference between the two. Last years team played the cavs well and beat the spurs on the road when relatively healthy.

[LarBrd33]

Lol... I love the passion folks.  But Pierce isn't on LeBron's level.   Lets move on.  This is a silly debate.  The Celtics won the title and Pierce got rewarded for his role.  That's all that matters.   Pierce was 3rd team All NBA, right?  So he's definitely in the discussion as being one of the best small forwards in the game.  Personally I say he's right up there with Dirk.

[617]

Dirk is a powerforward. If he was playing SF, who the world would play PF and C. That would be a tall as team and would stink defensively, unless u just label dirk as SF and Stackhouse as PF.

[JSD]

Carmelo Anthony – Has more Heart for drinking and driving.

Ron Artest – Stop fighting people in the crowd and sitting out of games to promote his album.

Andre Iguodala – Needs a jump shot.

Shawn Marion – Ugliest jump shot I’ve ever seen.
 
Kevin Durant – He is a pro basketball player and can only bench 180 lbs.?

[Mr October]

Pierce is #2, a distance behind Lebron.

[Weird Facts]

Its just impossible to say.  There is no scenario that could accurately say who the best small forward in the league is. 

Realistically Pierce made Antoine a much better player when he was in Boston.

Jordan Made Pippen a much better player than he was too. 

I mean those two comparison's really have to bridge to connect them.  So many factors are different between

How Jordan made Pippen better

and How Pierce made Walker better.

When you look at it on a whole, none of us here really knew Paul Pierce could be the player we saw this year.

He's always been the streaky shooter, or the best 4th quarter scorer.

He's never been the glue that held a team together, because aside from maybe 2001 and 2002.  There was no real team to be held together.  It was just a bunch of guys doing their best to overachieve while Pierce tried to carry them the rest of the way.

Now Pierce didn't have to carry the team constantly, he had a great team around him.  So what happens?   

Pierce plays the defense we only saw flashes of through his career nearly every possession.

he abuses defenders forced to gaurd him 1 on 1.

His Identity as a consistent contributer gets known.  This is because his teammates begin to knock down the shots he creates.  In the past lets face it, Pierce has done everything and then guys miss the easy shot.

most of all, scoring becomes a secondary goal to Pierce, he scores when he has to now and when his team is up he deters to his teammates.

Pierce is a different player with KG and Ray and the rest of the guys.

but you still have to question

What would Melo do in this situation? what would Lebron do in this situation?

You really can't say because its never happened.

[RockinRyA]

id say bron would be 1 and pierce a close second.. but i would take pp over him anytime.. maybe bec of my homer bias but maybe i just dont like media's babies

dirk is a pf, and id still say pp is better than him even if he was an sf
t-mac is a 2 guard jsut like kobe
marions better at no 4
jamison playing at 4 right now but he can also play no 3
butler has similarities with pp

george karl lost it for the period.. whats up with not playing ray much when its clear u need outside gunners?

[TruthSerum]

Lol... I love the passion folks.  But Pierce isn't on LeBron's level.   Lets move on.  This is a silly debate.  The Celtics won the title and Pierce got rewarded for his role.  That's all that matters.   Pierce was 3rd team All NBA, right?  So he's definitely in the discussion as being one of the best small forwards in the game.  Personally I say he's right up there with Dirk.

You're right, Pierce isn't on LeBron's level, he's WAY above it! This IS a silly debate. Let's move on.