House to T. Allen Ally

[cordobes]

What I am saying is that TA isn't going to sign for 700k. It makes no sense as has been stated here to sign the guy for 3 mil and then be in a situation where we can't sign someone else if the opportunity comes along. Obviously there is a difference in opinion on his abilities. No one can argue though that an out of control, dribbling challenged SG who can't shoot from the outside isn't someone to lock up for that kind of money. I have said numerous times that if he wants to sign for the bottom basement prices then fine. It is worth the gamble that his athleticism will return. When he was first out he was so unusually athletic that it overcame his deficiencies due to his defense and hops to finish at the rim. He is half that player now. Now his deficiencies are much more obvious.

He is the SG version of everyone's complaint of Scal. If he doesn't cost us an opportunity, then fine. If we can get someone that appears to have more upside then great. Remember, we got Eddie House last year for 1.5 mil. There was no buyout, just a guy wanting to be part of a championship team. He was 1000 times more valuable then TA at half the price. That's what my point is. We don't know who is available out there yet, but there will be someone.

Considering Theo and Jamal aren't going to be getting paid much anywhere, especially Theo, he may decide one more year with a chance at a championship is better than just retiring.

but signing TA for 3 million doesn't use up any means for us to sign another player....

Exactly, I don't know how many times I have to mention this, but keeping TA doesn't prevent the Celtics from getting anyone else that may be in their radar. The only thing that it affects is the owner's willingness to spend, but that's a different issue completely and it's quite impossible to speculate on what their standing on the issue of spending money is. After a championship that probably racked in a ton of revenue for the team, I leaning towards them not caring much about what they have to spend in order to field a great team.

As I've said before, if the ownership is ready to resign Posey and House with long non-Bird exception contracts, use the MLE and the LLE in the free-agency market, add a couple of veterans and the 1st round rookie to the roster, and, in the top of all that, still pay Tony Allen almost $3M to be our 11th player, I have absolutely no problem with that.

I just don't think that's believable.

[EJPLAYA]

What I am saying is that TA isn't going to sign for 700k. It makes no sense as has been stated here to sign the guy for 3 mil and then be in a situation where we can't sign someone else if the opportunity comes along. Obviously there is a difference in opinion on his abilities. No one can argue though that an out of control, dribbling challenged SG who can't shoot from the outside isn't someone to lock up for that kind of money. I have said numerous times that if he wants to sign for the bottom basement prices then fine. It is worth the gamble that his athleticism will return. When he was first out he was so unusually athletic that it overcame his deficiencies due to his defense and hops to finish at the rim. He is half that player now. Now his deficiencies are much more obvious.

He is the SG version of everyone's complaint of Scal. If he doesn't cost us an opportunity, then fine. If we can get someone that appears to have more upside then great. Remember, we got Eddie House last year for 1.5 mil. There was no buyout, just a guy wanting to be part of a championship team. He was 1000 times more valuable then TA at half the price. That's what my point is. We don't know who is available out there yet, but there will be someone.

Considering Theo and Jamal aren't going to be getting paid much anywhere, especially Theo, he may decide one more year with a chance at a championship is better than just retiring.

but signing TA for 3 million doesn't use up any means for us to sign another player....

Exactly, I don't know how many times I have to mention this, but keeping TA doesn't prevent the Celtics from getting anyone else that may be in their radar. The only thing that it affects is the owner's willingness to spend, but that's a different issue completely and it's quite impossible to speculate on what their standing on the issue of spending money is. After a championship that probably racked in a ton of revenue for the team, I leaning towards them not caring much about what they have to spend in order to field a great team.

If you aren't right, then mentioning it 1000 times doesn't change that fact. Although I do think they showed they are willing to step up and pay for a guy, they aren't going to overpay for a bench player. That is just bad business sense. If we can't sign Posey and House then you're right. He doesn't hurt us and may be a reasonable sign. If we sign those two, he won't get any run. Just like this year. Spend your money wiser and invest a lower amount of money on a couple guys who have upside. They can ride the bench just as well, and it makes the owners breathe a little easier in laying down a little too much for Posey. These guys are businessmen, so they will assuredly be wanting a good value for a player who will likely be riding the pine.

Funny how everyone throws a fit about Scal and his 3 million dollars, but has no issue at all giving TA that same contract amount for the same likely production...

[winsomme]

What I am saying is that TA isn't going to sign for 700k. It makes no sense as has been stated here to sign the guy for 3 mil and then be in a situation where we can't sign someone else if the opportunity comes along. Obviously there is a difference in opinion on his abilities. No one can argue though that an out of control, dribbling challenged SG who can't shoot from the outside isn't someone to lock up for that kind of money. I have said numerous times that if he wants to sign for the bottom basement prices then fine. It is worth the gamble that his athleticism will return. When he was first out he was so unusually athletic that it overcame his deficiencies due to his defense and hops to finish at the rim. He is half that player now. Now his deficiencies are much more obvious.

He is the SG version of everyone's complaint of Scal. If he doesn't cost us an opportunity, then fine. If we can get someone that appears to have more upside then great. Remember, we got Eddie House last year for 1.5 mil. There was no buyout, just a guy wanting to be part of a championship team. He was 1000 times more valuable then TA at half the price. That's what my point is. We don't know who is available out there yet, but there will be someone.

Considering Theo and Jamal aren't going to be getting paid much anywhere, especially Theo, he may decide one more year with a chance at a championship is better than just retiring.

but signing TA for 3 million doesn't use up any means for us to sign another player....

Exactly, I don't know how many times I have to mention this, but keeping TA doesn't prevent the Celtics from getting anyone else that may be in their radar. The only thing that it affects is the owner's willingness to spend, but that's a different issue completely and it's quite impossible to speculate on what their standing on the issue of spending money is. After a championship that probably racked in a ton of revenue for the team, I leaning towards them not caring much about what they have to spend in order to field a great team.

If you aren't right, then mentioning it 1000 times doesn't change that fact. Although I do think they showed they are willing to step up and pay for a guy, they aren't going to overpay for a bench player. That is just bad business sense. If we can't sign Posey and House then you're right. He doesn't hurt us and may be a reasonable sign. If we sign those two, he won't get any run. Just like this year. Spend your money wiser and invest a lower amount of money on a couple guys who have upside. They can ride the bench just as well, and it makes the owners breathe a little easier in laying down a little too much for Posey. These guys are businessmen, so they will assuredly be wanting a good value for a player who will likely be riding the pine.

Funny how everyone throws a fit about Scal and his 3 million dollars, but has no issue at all giving TA that same contract amount for the same likely production...

specifically on the point of signing TA for 3 mil and taking up money to spend on another player, Bud is exactly right. signing your own player that you have Bird rights on does not take up money you could spend on another player. in fact, just the opposite...signing your own guys it THE WAY to keep players when you are over the salary cap.

EJ, i think you are merging to separate issues here.

one is how much TA is worth. you obviously don't think he is worth a lot of money contract-wise...

and two what signing him would do to our ability to sign other players or sign another player to replace him if we did as you think we should and not resign him...

those are really separate issues...

[BudweiserCeltic]

What I am saying is that TA isn't going to sign for 700k. It makes no sense as has been stated here to sign the guy for 3 mil and then be in a situation where we can't sign someone else if the opportunity comes along. Obviously there is a difference in opinion on his abilities. No one can argue though that an out of control, dribbling challenged SG who can't shoot from the outside isn't someone to lock up for that kind of money. I have said numerous times that if he wants to sign for the bottom basement prices then fine. It is worth the gamble that his athleticism will return. When he was first out he was so unusually athletic that it overcame his deficiencies due to his defense and hops to finish at the rim. He is half that player now. Now his deficiencies are much more obvious.

He is the SG version of everyone's complaint of Scal. If he doesn't cost us an opportunity, then fine. If we can get someone that appears to have more upside then great. Remember, we got Eddie House last year for 1.5 mil. There was no buyout, just a guy wanting to be part of a championship team. He was 1000 times more valuable then TA at half the price. That's what my point is. We don't know who is available out there yet, but there will be someone.

Considering Theo and Jamal aren't going to be getting paid much anywhere, especially Theo, he may decide one more year with a chance at a championship is better than just retiring.

but signing TA for 3 million doesn't use up any means for us to sign another player....

Exactly, I don't know how many times I have to mention this, but keeping TA doesn't prevent the Celtics from getting anyone else that may be in their radar. The only thing that it affects is the owner's willingness to spend, but that's a different issue completely and it's quite impossible to speculate on what their standing on the issue of spending money is. After a championship that probably racked in a ton of revenue for the team, I leaning towards them not caring much about what they have to spend in order to field a great team.

If you aren't right, then mentioning it 1000 times doesn't change that fact. Although I do think they showed they are willing to step up and pay for a guy, they aren't going to overpay for a bench player. That is just bad business sense. If we can't sign Posey and House then you're right. He doesn't hurt us and may be a reasonable sign. If we sign those two, he won't get any run. Just like this year. Spend your money wiser and invest a lower amount of money on a couple guys who have upside. They can ride the bench just as well, and it makes the owners breathe a little easier in laying down a little too much for Posey. These guys are businessmen, so they will assuredly be wanting a good value for a player who will likely be riding the pine.

Funny how everyone throws a fit about Scal and his 3 million dollars, but has no issue at all giving TA that same contract amount for the same likely production...

Again, doesn't make sense. So if we don't get House and Posey, keep Tony... if we sign them both, let him go in order to be able to invest a lower amount of money on a couple of guys that have upside? With what money? I don't know where you get the idea that there'll be people around, that we can get after we've signed Posey and House, that we'll be able to afford that have more upside than Tony Allen. I simply don't see it. Not only more upside, but that are actually useful if needed.

Tony is not the bum you're making him out to be, he could turn out to be very useful and keeping him is very low risk to the team, there's no downside in keeping him.

I don't see the one or the other scenario you're presenting. The Celtics are capable of keeping Tony and still be able to perform all their plans they have for their roster. Now, if ownership in turn doesn't want to spend, then that's a whole different discussion, but we can't really speculate on that. All we've seen so far is that they should be willing to spend, and if that's the case it makes zero sense to let Tony go regardless of what their plans are to shape the roster. We have plenty of roster spots available.

You're relying too much in this bargain deals that are quite rare and hard to come buy, and even if they come along, it's not a guarantee that we'll be able to afford them if we've already spent all our exceptions on Posey and House. If we get Posey and House, it'll be very very hard to get new players. You will only be able to get people that are willing to come for the veteran minimum, and usually those are the rejects or people that get bought out (and that usually happens towards the end of the season). You used the Eddie House situation as an example, but guess what, by the looks of it if we sign both Posey and House (depending on what type of contract he looks for) it'll be very doubtful we would even be able to afford a House-type of deal like we did last year.

[cordobes]

I think there's something that must be stressed (everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players):

If we need to spend the MLE and the bi-annual exception to resign Posey and House (or similar players), then we must keep Tony Allen.

If we don't, please take in consideration that we're already paying luxury tax, so for every contract over the cap they have to pay the double. In that case, we would have:
Starting Five + Posey, House, Scal, Powe, BBD, Pruitt, MLE player, LLE Player, Rookie, Veteran Ring Chaser. To add Tony Allen, we would need to cut one of these; and we'd probably be the most expensive franchise in the NBA. 

-----------------

I think this a better and more realistic question:

Would you rather be able spend the entire MLE (aprox. $5.8M) in the FA market or spend $2.7M resigning Allen and than spend only half of the MLE on a free-agent?

[wdleehi]

I think there's something that must be stressed (everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players):

If we need to spend the MLE and the bi-annual exception to resign Posey and House (or similar players), then we must keep Tony Allen.

If we don't, please take in consideration that we're already paying luxury tax, so for every contract over the cap they have to pay the double. In that case, we would have:
Starting Five + Posey, House, Scal, Powe, BBD, Pruitt, MLE player, LLE Player, Rookie, Veteran Ring Chaser. To add Tony Allen, we would need to cut one of these; and we'd probably be the most expensive franchise in the NBA. 

-----------------

I think this a better and more realistic question:

Would you rather be able spend the entire MLE (aprox. $5.8M) in the FA market or spend $2.7M resigning Allen and than spend only half of the MLE on a free-agent?

TA's contract does not come out of the MLE.  Celtics own the Bird rights.


Psoey might have to come out of the MLE because the Celtics do not own the Bird rights. 





Sign TA, the full MLE is still there.

[cordobes]

I think there's something that must be stressed (everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players):

If we need to spend the MLE and the bi-annual exception to resign Posey and House (or similar players), then we must keep Tony Allen.

If we don't, please take in consideration that we're already paying luxury tax, so for every contract over the cap they have to pay the double. In that case, we would have:
Starting Five + Posey, House, Scal, Powe, BBD, Pruitt, MLE player, LLE Player, Rookie, Veteran Ring Chaser. To add Tony Allen, we would need to cut one of these; and we'd probably be the most expensive franchise in the NBA. 

-----------------

I think this a better and more realistic question:

Would you rather be able spend the entire MLE (aprox. $5.8M) in the FA market or spend $2.7M resigning Allen and than spend only half of the MLE on a free-agent?

TA's contract does not come out of the MLE.  Celtics own the Bird rights.


Psoey might have to come out of the MLE because the Celtics do not own the Bird rights. 





Sign TA, the full MLE is still there.

Yeps, that's precisely what I said: "(everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players)".

We can resign Posey without using the MLE. If we can do that, and we use the MLE to sign a couple of new players, there's no need to pay Tony Allen $2.7M, considering we're already above the luxury tax.

[wdleehi]

I think there's something that must be stressed (everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players):

If we need to spend the MLE and the bi-annual exception to resign Posey and House (or similar players), then we must keep Tony Allen.

If we don't, please take in consideration that we're already paying luxury tax, so for every contract over the cap they have to pay the double. In that case, we would have:
Starting Five + Posey, House, Scal, Powe, BBD, Pruitt, MLE player, LLE Player, Rookie, Veteran Ring Chaser. To add Tony Allen, we would need to cut one of these; and we'd probably be the most expensive franchise in the NBA. 

-----------------

I think this a better and more realistic question:

Would you rather be able spend the entire MLE (aprox. $5.8M) in the FA market or spend $2.7M resigning Allen and than spend only half of the MLE on a free-agent?

TA's contract does not come out of the MLE.  Celtics own the Bird rights.


Psoey might have to come out of the MLE because the Celtics do not own the Bird rights. 





Sign TA, the full MLE is still there.

Yeps, that's precisely what I said.

Oh, the second part was a quote? 


if so, click 'quote' on the post you are posting.  It will make things less confusing. 

[cordobes]

I think there's something that must be stressed (everybody is aware that resigning Allen won't hurt our ability to sign new players):

If we need to spend the MLE and the bi-annual exception to resign Posey and House (or similar players), then we must keep Tony Allen.

If we don't, please take in consideration that we're already paying luxury tax, so for every contract over the cap they have to pay the double. In that case, we would have:
Starting Five + Posey, House, Scal, Powe, BBD, Pruitt, MLE player, LLE Player, Rookie, Veteran Ring Chaser. To add Tony Allen, we would need to cut one of these; and we'd probably be the most expensive franchise in the NBA. 

-----------------

I think this a better and more realistic question:

Would you rather be able spend the entire MLE (aprox. $5.8M) in the FA market or spend $2.7M resigning Allen and than spend only half of the MLE on a free-agent?

TA's contract does not come out of the MLE.  Celtics own the Bird rights.


Psoey might have to come out of the MLE because the Celtics do not own the Bird rights. 





Sign TA, the full MLE is still there.

Yeps, that's precisely what I said.

Oh, the second part was a quote? 


if so, click 'quote' on the post you are posting.  It will make things less confusing. 

No, it wasn't a quote. Why should it be a quote? The restriction in the second part is not the CBA but the willingness of the ownership to spend money unwisely.

[cordobes]

Let's assume some realistic premises:

Posey and House are resigned with the non-Bird exception (and if this doesn't happen - and I don't believe it will-, I agree that TA should be resigned for the $2.7).
We use the MLE and the LLE to sign a couple of players (e.g. Diop and Mo Evans).
Some veteran pg joins for the minimum (Carter).
We draft a big man (Hardin).
Pruitt joins the roster, as the 5th guard.

We'd have:
Rondo/Carter/Pruitt
Allen/Mo Evans
Pierce/Posey
KG/Powe/BBD/Scal
Perkins/Diop/Hardin

Would you spend almost 3 million dollars to keep Tony Allen in that roster? To play some garbage time?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Here's a list of the free-agents, find me people that you guys think are better than Tony and that we'll be able to afford:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=2008freeagents

I'm having a hard time finding one, and I don't think it'll be smart to rely on potential buy-outs during the season.

Let's assume some realistic premises:

Posey and House are resigned with the non-Bird exception (and if this doesn't happen - and I don't believe it will-, I agree that TA should be resigned for the $2.7).
We use the MLE and the LLE to sign a couple of players (e.g. Diop and Mo Evans).
Some veteran pg joins for the minimum (Carter).
We draft a big man (Hardin).
Pruitt joins the roster, as the 5th guard.

We'd have:
Rondo/Carter/Pruitt
Allen/Mo Evans
Pierce/Posey
KG/Powe/BBD/Scal
Perkins/Diop/Hardin

Would you spend almost 3 million dollars to keep Tony Allen in that roster? To play some garbage time?

You're living in a fantasy world if you think that we'll be able to sign Diop and Evans while keeping Posey. I know you assumed some things about how we'll be able to sign Posey, but I thought you were making this to be realistic. And Carter joining for the vet. min., he could, but I think he'll be looking to get paid. He had quite a productive year, although he was injured early on. I think Denver will do what it can to keep him.

[winsomme]

Let's assume some realistic premises:

Posey and House are resigned with the non-Bird exception (and if this doesn't happen - and I don't believe it will-, I agree that TA should be resigned for the $2.7).
We use the MLE and the LLE to sign a couple of players (e.g. Diop and Mo Evans).
Some veteran pg joins for the minimum (Carter).
We draft a big man (Hardin).
Pruitt joins the roster, as the 5th guard.

We'd have:
Rondo/Carter/Pruitt
Allen/Mo Evans
Pierce/Posey
KG/Powe/BBD/Scal
Perkins/Diop/Hardin

Would you spend almost 3 million dollars to keep Tony Allen in that roster? To play some garbage time?

personally i like TA over Mo Evans...and i think Posey is going to take most of the MLE to re-sign....

[cordobes]

If you're assuming that the $22.5M non-Bird exception won't be enough to resign Posey and that we'll need to spend the MLE (or most of it) on him, then I (and EJ) have already said that in that case we must resign Allen. What are we exactly discussing?

[BudweiserCeltic]

If you're assuming that the $22.5M non-Bird exception won't be enough to resign Posey and that we'll need to spend the MLE (or most of it) on him, then I (and EJ) have already said that in that case we must resign Allen. What are we exactly discussing?

Actually, EJ hasn't said that. EJ said that if we spend it on Posey, that we have to let TA go. Your point of view made sense a couple of posts back when you agreed that if ownership is willing to spend that we should keep TA, and if they aren't willing to spend, then we should really reconsider. I'm with you up to that point. I've been arguing with EJ about his position which is entirely different than yours.

[cordobes]

personally i like TA over Mo Evans...

I believe. But nobody who isn't a Boston fan would prefer TA to Mo Evans. Fans tend to overvalue their own players, especially if they came in via draft.

You're living in a fantasy world if you think that we'll be able to sign Diop and Evans while keeping Posey. I know you assumed some things about how we'll be able to sign Posey, but I thought you were making this to be realistic. And Carter joining for the vet. min., he could, but I think he'll be looking to get paid. He had quite a productive year, although he was injured early on. I think Denver will do what it can to keep him.

Names were not important. Substitute them for MLE player, LLE player, Veteran pg, Veteran Center, Rookie, etc.

Let's put it this way: how much money do you think Allen would make in the open-market? Something close to $3M?