Posey will opt out, House wants to return

[Triboy16]

I think instead of taxing the celts so much the big three need to butt their together, donate 500 k each to posey and help him be back.

He is seriously a great bench guy, a captain no joke

U can't blame him for wanting to leave, look his pay. He is so much better than most full mle players out there.

give him a 5.5 4 year deal. 22 million for 4 years, do it danny, do it big three. I don't care about house as much as posey right now

[EJPLAYA]

Easy decision.

Give Posey the MLE and start whittling down the end of the bench.

Buh-bye, Tony Allen.

At the contrary. If we spend all the MLE on Posey, there's a good chance we keep Tony just because he doesn't take away any of the exceptions we can use to sign other players.  I wouldn't give up on Tony just yet, even though it has been spot minutes here and there, I think he has been quite decent and composed during the playoffs (sure not a big enough sample to really determine). But I wouldn't be surprised if he plays much much better from next year on.

With that said I want House back too. I loved it when we signed him and I love PG's that can shoot.

No argument on House; plenty on Tony. I don't like unintelligent, mental mistake-prone players and I frankly don't think there's room for Tony on this roster. I'd like to send him on his way and use the roster spot on a more intelligent contributor.

Tony is not the bum he's being made out to be... he had a down year, with his recovery and all, but I think his "dumbness" and "mistake-prone" characteristics have been overstated quite a bit. First lets consider that he has been used out of position for most if not all the year. There's a slim chance of that happening from next year on.

And you talk about using the roster spot for a more intelligent contributor, but how? Who? And is this intelligent contributor even skilled?

I don't think we'll be able to find someone as afordable as Tony Allen is, with his defensive skillset, even though he is "mistake prone". I really doubt we'll be able to afford/acquire anyone better than what Tony Allen brings. Also, we should have plenty of roster spots available, so I don't see any downside in keeping Tony AND go after this intelligent player you talk about. As I said, keeping Tony Allen doesn't hinder our ability to get other talent... only in luxury tax, but that's all up to what the owners are willing to spend, nothing to do with basketball/roster implications.

First of all, TA has not come back with the same lateral quickness that he had prior to his second major injury and is not the "defensive presence" that he once was. He very well may never get that back and therefore this once strong part of his game becomes average.

Secondly, he isn't just "mistake prone" he is a huge turnover problem. He creates havoc for our team offensively by doing things that are outside of his skill set. He just isn't wise enough to realize his limitations and play within them. One example is his multiple missed layups/dunks. A smart player would recognize that he doesn't have the lift to do what he is attempting and lay the ball up from the side like every one of us. I can go out there and make ten of ten with my poor jumping ability with all the pressure in the world. He just refuses to be smart about it.

He has horrible dribbling skills, can't shoot from the outside anymore for some reason, is an average defender at best at this point, and makes terrible decisions with the basketball. He charges all the time due to his out of control style of play. The only thing that I think he does extremely well is shoot free throws. You can find a ton of journeymen out there for that kind of money that can give you what he brings. Better yet, fill his spot with a rookie with upside. That way Pruitt can fill his minutes and get some experience while we start to develop another guy.

[houlana]

i want tony allen out.
now that we are hopefully about to win a championship. there is no room for tony as he is not intellegent, and the team has been working with him for years, we need somebody that can contrubute right away. (posey) or any other athletic smart player.
i would not mind Mo Evans taking tony's spot on the team

[BudweiserCeltic]

I love how people prior to the season had zero expectations for Tony as he was in recovery mode, he has a down year, and suddenly he's treated as the worst player we could've possibly had. A player who was asked to handle the ball, playing out of position, and you can't give him a break when chances are the same circumstances won't happen again?

I keep asking you guys that want Tony Allen out, do you realize that we really have little ability to replace his roster spot with a more skilled or intelligent player? I think that's the portion of the argument people are having trouble with. Tony Allen should be very affordable to us, and replacing his roster spot with someone better will be very very hard. It makes zero sense to me to dump him for dumping him sake.

At the least, we can use him in some sort of trade... he has some trade value when combined with other "assets". It makes no sense to let him go for nothing.

[EJPLAYA]

The only way I can see for us to keep Posey is by offering him a $25M/5 years contract using the non-bird exception. That would allow us to use the MLE on a backup center and a backup pg. But I don't know if the ownership buys this, and I can't blame them if they don't. We can't afford to spend the full-MLE in Posey (unless there are a couple of good veterans willing to play for the min a la PJ Brown and we use the LLE to resign House). 

You want to give a five year $25 million contract to a 32 year old player who LeBron James and Kobe Bryant have already proven has lost the speed on his first step and whom you can exploit if you are young and have that quick first step speed and agility.

I wouldn't. That's just not smart business in my book. 2-3 years into that contract when SFs league wide are starting to blow by James, that contract is going tobe an albatross considering the Celtics will probably be over the luxury tax threshold.

I agree 100% on this one Nickagenta. 5 years is too long to pay that kind of money for a role player turning 32. 2-3 years is perfectly fine. We would regret that contract in 3 years. We do need to find a way to convince him though. We wouldn't be where we are without him.

I disagree with the House part though. I don't think we can find a guy for that kind of money that can bring us what this guy does. I'd sign him as well for 2-3 years. If Pruitt doesn't work out then we can look at adding a vet later in the year like the atrocious Sam pick-up. (with hopefully better results)

BTW EJ, off topic but real quick. I would like to apologize for some of the heated arguments we had over Sam Cassell. I was wrong about him and you were right and I wanted to acknowledge publically that I was wrong. He was a complete and utter waist. When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong and TP for you and for me not seeing your insight.

All that said I don't see Eddie back. I think the luxury tax might be a bigger deal than some here are thinking and that maybe someone cheaper like a Kenyon Dooling or the guy from Washington Roger Mason might come as a real bargain. Besides I see Pruitt being given a bunch of run as well.

TP back to you as well. I have always found our discussions "spirited" and not intended with any bad blood. Some posters on here I don't think that is the case, but yours have always been with the attempt to discuss and prove your point vs belittling my differing opinion! Keep up the great dialogue. It does appear unfortunately that I was right with this topic, however fortunately we have been able to adjust and overcome. All that matters is us hanging #17! I just hope that this situation doesn't prevent us from having the "option" of bringing him back. If I were him I might not be so eager to come back with what happened. Maybe a ring erases all memory though!

[cordobes]

The only way I can see for us to keep Posey is by offering him a $25M/5 years contract using the non-bird exception. That would allow us to use the MLE on a backup center and a backup pg. But I don't know if the ownership buys this, and I can't blame them if they don't. We can't afford to spend the full-MLE in Posey (unless there are a couple of good veterans willing to play for the min a la PJ Brown and we use the LLE to resign House). 

You want to give a five year $25 million contract to a 32 year old player who LeBron James and Kobe Bryant have already proven has lost the speed on his first step and whom you can exploit if you are young and have that quick first step speed and agility.

I wouldn't. That's just not smart business in my book. 2-3 years into that contract when SFs league wide are starting to blow by James, that contract is going tobe an albatross considering the Celtics will probably be over the luxury tax threshold.

You have a point - that's why I said I can't blame Wyc if they don't go for this. It's not a given that the C's will be over the top post-2011, anyway. Of course that contract will be very bad in 3 years - but that's the price to pay for having him during the first 3 years for roughly $12M.

[cordobes]

The only way I can see for us to keep Posey is by offering him a $25M/5 years contract using the non-bird exception. That would allow us to use the MLE on a backup center and a backup pg. But I don't know if the ownership buys this, and I can't blame them if they don't. We can't afford to spend the full-MLE in Posey (unless there are a couple of good veterans willing to play for the min a la PJ Brown and we use the LLE to resign House). 

Here's the most we can offer Posey in each year using the non-Bird exception:

Year 1: $3,847,200 (20% raise from this year's salary)
Year 2: $4,154,976 (8% raise from Year 1 salary)
Year 3: $4,487,374 (8% raise from Year 2 salary)
Year 4: $4,846,364 (8% raise from Year 3 salary)
Year 5: $5,234,073 (8% raise from Year 4 salary)

Non-Bird deals are limited to five years.

Thus, the largest contract we can offer is:

One year deal:   $ 3,477,200
Two year deal:   $ 8,002,176
Three year deal: $12,489,550
Four year deal:  $17,335,914
Five year deal:  $22,569,987

While those figures are reasonable for Boston, they're really not for Posey. Assuming the $5.8 million starting figure for the MLE is correct, another team could offer Posey a three year deal worth $18,829,120, or $1.5 million more than we could offer with the non-Bird exception on a four year deal.

I really think if we're going to retain Posey, we're going to have to use our own MLE, unfortunately enough.

Thanks for crunching the numbers. I was off by $2.5M. You are probably right that the 5 year deal won't be enough to retain Posey. I can see teams like LA or Cleveland (his hometown) offering him that 3 year full-MLE contract. And I don't think it will be smart of us to offer him that kind of money. I guess it all depends on how much he likes Boston and playing for this team.

Someone has to start a "Stay with us, Posey! Pleaseee!" petition

[EJPLAYA]

I love how people prior to the season had zero expectations for Tony as he was in recovery mode, he has a down year, and suddenly he's treated as the worst player we could've possibly had. A player who was asked to handle the ball, playing out of position, and you can't give him a break when chances are the same circumstances won't happen again?

I keep asking you guys that want Tony Allen out, do you realize that we really have little ability to replace his roster spot with a more skilled or intelligent player? I think that's the portion of the argument people are having trouble with. Tony Allen should be very affordable to us, and replacing his roster spot with someone better will be very very hard. It makes zero sense to me to dump him for dumping him sake.

At the least, we can use him in some sort of trade... he has some trade value when combined with other "assets". It makes no sense to let him go for nothing.

Unless he is going to be named our new backup center, ball handling skills are needed in playing the 2 as well. That game clinching lefty layup by Ray demonstrates that pretty clearly. If that was TA he would have charged the guy and we might have had a different result. It is also pretty important to be able to shoot the ball at the 2. Considering he hasn't hit a 3 pointer since February I think that might be a little bit of an issue, since he can't create his own shot off the dribble. I am saddened by the fact that the guys injuries have left an explosive jumper and quick defender without the ability to do that any longer, but it doesn't change the fact that he isn't that same guy.

I am pretty affordable as well, but I doubt that I should be sitting there on the bench. The value to us in getting rid of him is to the ability to develop a young player or bring in a contributing veteran. All those minutes this year from TA, 1378 of them, could have been given to Pruitt. Then right now we'd know what we had in the kid vs. going into year 2 with a question mark.

[hpantazo]

I still think we have to keep Posey, whatever it takes, not only for the benefit on our team but to prevent him from putting one of our possible opponents over the top in next year's playoffs. It will really hurt to see him doing to us what he did to the lakers in game 4 if we don't sign him. It could cost us a banner or two, and I believe we have to do whatever it takes to maximizes the chances of this team winning some banners in the next 2-3 seasons.

[Finkelskyhook]

I love how people prior to the season had zero expectations for Tony as he was in recovery mode, he has a down year, and suddenly he's treated as the worst player we could've possibly had. A player who was asked to handle the ball, playing out of position, and you can't give him a break when chances are the same circumstances won't happen again?

I keep asking you guys that want Tony Allen out, do you realize that we really have little ability to replace his roster spot with a more skilled or intelligent player? I think that's the portion of the argument people are having trouble with. Tony Allen should be very affordable to us, and replacing his roster spot with someone better will be very very hard. It makes zero sense to me to dump him for dumping him sake.

At the least, we can use him in some sort of trade... he has some trade value when combined with other "assets". It makes no sense to let him go for nothing.

Outstanding post, Bud.  No young player, especially one coming off major injuries, can be expected to play 25M one game at his position, 10M out of position in the next, then come back after 2-3 DNPs and play consistently well after.  I'd sure rather have him on the court instead of (for some reason) everybodys darling Pruitt.  With Tony, you know whoever he's guarding is going to have to work for his shot.  

I saw enough dumb plays from Paul and Kevin in the first half of Game 4 for 10 games.  Anybody suggesting dumping them?

I believe the window with this group has two more years left.  If Danny believes that we'll probably see Posey signed to the MLE.  I don't know that he gets more than that on the open market.

One way or the other, I think Tony gets resigned also. 

[Chief]

Here's the most we can offer Posey in each year using the non-Bird exception:

Year 1: $3,847,200 (20% raise from this year's salary)
Year 2: $4,154,976 (8% raise from Year 1 salary)
Year 3: $4,487,374 (8% raise from Year 2 salary)
Year 4: $4,846,364 (8% raise from Year 3 salary)
Year 5: $5,234,073 (8% raise from Year 4 salary)

Non-Bird deals are limited to five years.

Thus, the largest contract we can offer is:

One year deal:   $ 3,477,200
Two year deal:   $ 8,002,176Three year deal: $12,489,550
Four year deal:  $17,335,914
Five year deal:  $22,569,987

While those figures are reasonable for Boston, they're really not for Posey.  Assuming the $5.8 million starting figure for the MLE is correct, another team could offer Posey a three year deal worth $18,829,120, or $1.5 million more than we could offer with the non-Bird exception on a four year deal.

I really think if we're going to retain Posey, we're going to have to use our own MLE, unfortunately enough.

I vote for 2 years. If that's not enough, then let him go. This team can't afford to tie up salary long term on aging veterans.

[cdif911]

I still think we have to keep Posey, whatever it takes, not only for the benefit on our team but to prevent him from putting one of our possible opponents over the top in next year's playoffs. It will really hurt to see him doing to us what he did to the lakers in game 4 if we don't sign him. It could cost us a banner or two, and I believe we have to do whatever it takes to maximizes the chances of this team winning some banners in the next 2-3 seasons.

Remember though, he is a bench player and 1 year older next year.  He's contributed a ton, but if it hurts our future financial flexibility, that would be something we'd have to look at I think - I saw someone suggest 10 mil for him, he's simply not worth that amount - does he deserve a raise? I think so - if he gets a full MLE, that's more than fair - its tough for us as fans to see the business side of it.

[EJPLAYA]

I love how people prior to the season had zero expectations for Tony as he was in recovery mode, he has a down year, and suddenly he's treated as the worst player we could've possibly had. A player who was asked to handle the ball, playing out of position, and you can't give him a break when chances are the same circumstances won't happen again?

I keep asking you guys that want Tony Allen out, do you realize that we really have little ability to replace his roster spot with a more skilled or intelligent player? I think that's the portion of the argument people are having trouble with. Tony Allen should be very affordable to us, and replacing his roster spot with someone better will be very very hard. It makes zero sense to me to dump him for dumping him sake.

At the least, we can use him in some sort of trade... he has some trade value when combined with other "assets". It makes no sense to let him go for nothing.

Outstanding post, Bud.  No young player, especially one coming off major injuries, can be expected to play 25M one game at his position, 10M out of position in the next, then come back after 2-3 DNPs and play consistently well after.  I'd sure rather have him on the court instead of (for some reason) everybodys darling Pruitt.  With Tony, you know whoever he's guarding is going to have to work for his shot.  

I saw enough dumb plays from Paul and Kevin in the first half of Game 4 for 10 games.  Anybody suggesting dumping them?

I believe the window with this group has two more years left.  If Danny believes that we'll probably see Posey signed to the MLE.  I don't know that he gets more than that on the open market.

One way or the other, I think Tony gets resigned also. 

I'd argue that in 97 total minutes on the floor, you have no IDEA whether or not you'd like to see him on the floor more than TA. Here's what we do know though. TA was awful this year, and Pruitt couldn't have been worse. If TA supporters want to make the argument he should have been sat the whole year to truly heal and THEN make the decision on him next year I'd be fine with that. That's not what happened though. He eliminated any trade value, took away all his confidence in his outside shot, and prevented us from taking a look at a kid that looks to have some upside. I was a huge fan of TA's game prior to his injuries. He didn't endear himself any with his off court antics in Chicago, so I have no attachment to the guy emotionally. Because of this, he is just an employee who isn't physically capable or mentally strong enough to give us anything. Time to move on!

[BudweiserCeltic]

I love how people prior to the season had zero expectations for Tony as he was in recovery mode, he has a down year, and suddenly he's treated as the worst player we could've possibly had. A player who was asked to handle the ball, playing out of position, and you can't give him a break when chances are the same circumstances won't happen again?

I keep asking you guys that want Tony Allen out, do you realize that we really have little ability to replace his roster spot with a more skilled or intelligent player? I think that's the portion of the argument people are having trouble with. Tony Allen should be very affordable to us, and replacing his roster spot with someone better will be very very hard. It makes zero sense to me to dump him for dumping him sake.

At the least, we can use him in some sort of trade... he has some trade value when combined with other "assets". It makes no sense to let him go for nothing.

Outstanding post, Bud.  No young player, especially one coming off major injuries, can be expected to play 25M one game at his position, 10M out of position in the next, then come back after 2-3 DNPs and play consistently well after.  I'd sure rather have him on the court instead of (for some reason) everybodys darling Pruitt.  With Tony, you know whoever he's guarding is going to have to work for his shot.  

I saw enough dumb plays from Paul and Kevin in the first half of Game 4 for 10 games.  Anybody suggesting dumping them?

I believe the window with this group has two more years left.  If Danny believes that we'll probably see Posey signed to the MLE.  I don't know that he gets more than that on the open market.

One way or the other, I think Tony gets resigned also. 

I'd argue that in 97 total minutes on the floor, you have no IDEA whether or not you'd like to see him on the floor more than TA. Here's what we do know though. TA was awful this year, and Pruitt couldn't have been worse. If TA supporters want to make the argument he should have been sat the whole year to truly heal and THEN make the decision on him next year I'd be fine with that. That's not what happened though. He eliminated any trade value, took away all his confidence in his outside shot, and prevented us from taking a look at a kid that looks to have some upside. I was a huge fan of TA's game prior to his injuries. He didn't endear himself any with his off court antics in Chicago, so I have no attachment to the guy emotionally. Because of this, he is just an employee who isn't physically capable or mentally strong enough to give us anything. Time to move on!

Just because WE don't know what we have in Pruitt, doesn't mean that the team doesn't have a good idea on what they have with Pruitt. All points towards making him our back-up PG, and he simply wasn't ready to get extended minutes at the NBA level. He needed time on the floor, so you could argue that his time was better spent getting minutes in the development league instead of wasting time on the Celtics bench where he probably wouldn't have gotten enough minutes on the floor anyways wether we were playing Tony or not.  What you would've seen was probably a healthier dose of House in back-up PG minutes, and the Pierce/Allen-Posey combo for SG and SF.

[celticmaestro]

i think roy hit the nail on the head with an earlier post. this is a difficult decision to make.

for the record though, i'd love to see posey back.