Doc's Straw Men

[winsomme]

once again, you have proven that when the facts don't support an argument you attack the poster...

The argument was that Doc shouldn't have played Cassell with five-man bench units down the stretch, but instead should have been played in a manner similar to his eventual playoff role.

You warped that into an argument that Cassell should have been starting, continued on with that, got called out on it, and now modified your argument once again to something it wasn't.  You do this consistently; pointing out your "debating" tactics is not a personal attack, nor is my declining to get drawn into a drawn out conversation with you.

Have fun putting words in people's mouth.  When the facts don't support your argument, make them up.

umm, no...the argument was that Sam was not ready to play with the starters in the playoffs where he would not be looking to score....

you have been called out to back this claim up twice now and have failed to do so....

Sam has always looked to score first. and there is no evidence that he is ill-equipped to play with the starters...

[wdleehi]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

[winsomme]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

where is the evidence that Sam is not integrated into this team...

or that his game would change significantly if he had played more with the starters in the regular season....

[wdleehi]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

where is the evidence that Sam is not integrated into this team...

Have you watched him in the playoffs?   


Have we yet seen him in sync with KG, Ray or Pierce?



I am sure he has good chemistry with Tony, Powe, Davis. 

[BballTim]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.

  I'm often less concerned about which bench players that he uses as the fact that he uses so many of them at once, especially 4 subs with Ray Allen when he's struggling like he is.

[wdleehi]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.

  I'm often less concerned about which bench players that he uses as the fact that he uses so many of them at once, especially 4 subs with Ray Allen when he's struggling like he is.

That lineup kills me to. 

The go to guy out there has no confidence and hasn't played as the go to guy all year. 

The defense is weaker. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'll say this again, Cassell has been playing mostly with our bench anyways during the playoffs. His struggles aren't as much as how he plays with the team, because I think he did much better as the playoffs went along, but at how his shot has been missing. He has taken quite a ton of great shots against Cleveland, short mid-range jumpers that are money for him and he has simply missed them. This is NOT on Doc or him not playing with the starters much during the season.

Also, you need to factor in how he was injured for quite a few games during the season AND it quite a few games coincided when our team was resting for the most part. Fact is Cassell played big minutes for the Celtics in the little amount of time he was with the Celtics during the season.

You might not like those 5 men bench units (which are not at all entirely acurate), but they are FAR from the reason why Cassell or our team has struggled with him on the floor.

[winsomme]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

where is the evidence that Sam is not integrated into this team...

Have you watched him in the playoffs?   


Have we yet seen him in sync with KG, Ray or Pierce?



I am sure he has good chemistry with Tony, Powe, Davis. 

the reason Sam is not playing is due to matchups....no amount of time with the starters was going the enable Sam to keep up with Gibson or DWest...

in games 1 and 2 of that series i actually thought his offensive play was game-saving....

it was simply overall a bad matchup for him

your assertion that Sam is looking for his shot in the playoffs because he is ill-equipped to do anything else and the reason for that is due to Doc not playing him with the starters just ignores Sam's whole career of doing just that...

[winsomme]

once again, you have proven that when the facts don't support an argument you attack the poster...

The argument was that Doc shouldn't have played Cassell with five-man bench units down the stretch, but instead should have been played in a manner similar to his eventual playoff role.

You warped that into an argument that Cassell should have been starting, continued on with that, got called out on it, and now modified your argument once again to something it wasn't.  You do this consistently; pointing out your "debating" tactics is not a personal attack, nor is my declining to get drawn into a drawn out conversation with you.

Have fun putting words in people's mouth.  When the facts don't support your argument, make them up.

by the way Roy, in order to do what you are arguing should have been done, Doc would have had to play his starters MORE  minutes in the final weeks of the season.

and to play the starters more minutes in order to get them more time with our 2nd to 3rd string PG and take away time  with the starters is also illogical (starting or otherwise) ...

Doc would have had to bump House from the rotation turning his back on a key player for this team all season.....something you have complained about him doing in the playoffs

the whole paradigm being argued here is fallacious.

Sam came to this team with 6 weeks left in the season. getting PT with the starters was simply not a priority ...not should it have been.

[crownsy]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

where is the evidence that Sam is not integrated into this team...

Have you watched him in the playoffs?   


Have we yet seen him in sync with KG, Ray or Pierce?



I am sure he has good chemistry with Tony, Powe, Davis. 

the reason Sam is not playing is due to matchups....no amount of time with the starters was going the enable Sam to keep up with Gibson or DWest...

in games 1 and 2 of that series i actually thought his offensive play was game-saving....

it was simply overall a bad matchup for him

your assertion that Sam is looking for his shot in the playoffs because he is ill-equipped to do anything else and the reason for that is due to Doc not playing him with the starters just ignores Sam's whole career of doing just that...

if sam can not keep up with gibson and dwest, who are average drivers at best, then he will not be able to keep up with many other point gaurds.

Thus why he is benched right now, and its a good move by doc. I doubt he can keep chauncy at 80% in front of him to be honest.

[winsomme]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Where did I say start Cassell?   


I said they should have has him play more often with the starters. 

Instead, we watched hockey line switches down the stretch. 


And who said reinvent Cassell? 

I said integrate Cassell into the team.  The guys he would have to be on the floor with in the playoffs. 

where is the evidence that Sam is not integrated into this team...

Have you watched him in the playoffs?   


Have we yet seen him in sync with KG, Ray or Pierce?



I am sure he has good chemistry with Tony, Powe, Davis. 

the reason Sam is not playing is due to matchups....no amount of time with the starters was going the enable Sam to keep up with Gibson or DWest...

in games 1 and 2 of that series i actually thought his offensive play was game-saving....

it was simply overall a bad matchup for him

your assertion that Sam is looking for his shot in the playoffs because he is ill-equipped to do anything else and the reason for that is due to Doc not playing him with the starters just ignores Sam's whole career of doing just that...

if sam can not keep up with gibson and dwest, who are average drivers at best, then he will not be able to keep up with many other point gaurds.

Thus why he is benched right now, and its a good move by doc. I doubt he can keep chauncy at 80% in front of him to be honest.

well it wasn't their driving that was the problem. it was their running off of screens and getting clean looks at three's. and yeah, Sam had trouble keeping up with those guys and that had NOTHING to do with Doc.

i called for him to make the move House also....but blaming this on Doc not getting Sam with the starters during the final weeks of the regular season is ridiculous.

Doc's priorities for the final weeks were the right one's and that included getting the starters rest while keeping them fresh too....

there was simply no way to get Sam time with the starters the way is being called for without disturbing the other priorities and there is no evidence that that is even a problem...

[wdleehi]

well it wasn't their driving that was the problem. it was their running off of screens and getting clean looks at three's. and yeah, Sam had trouble keeping up with those guys and that had NOTHING to do with Doc.

i called for him to make the move House also....but blaming this on Doc not getting Sam with the starters during the final weeks of the regular season is ridiculous.

Doc's priorities for the final weeks were the right one's and that included getting the starters rest while keeping them fresh too....

there was simply no way to get Sam time with the starters the way is being called for without disturbing the other priorities and there is no evidence that that is even a problem...

So preparing the guy you planned on using as the back up PG and possible down the stretch in certain games in not a priority? 

[crownsy]

i disagree, screens wern't the problem, gibson was destroying him off the dribble. he couldn't stay with that kid when he had the ball at all.

he was bad at screens to, but he got benched for layup after layup by an inferior driving gaurd.

and chuncy, even hurt, is a better driver than gibson can ever hope to be.

the argument i keep hearing is "well sam is a great post defender" thats nice, im sure billups watches film, i'd never post sam up. Id run right around picks, just liek the cavs did, and challange him to stay in front of me.

why post him up when you can beat him to the rim?

[BudweiserCeltic]

well it wasn't their driving that was the problem. it was their running off of screens and getting clean looks at three's. and yeah, Sam had trouble keeping up with those guys and that had NOTHING to do with Doc.

i called for him to make the move House also....but blaming this on Doc not getting Sam with the starters during the final weeks of the regular season is ridiculous.

Doc's priorities for the final weeks were the right one's and that included getting the starters rest while keeping them fresh too....

there was simply no way to get Sam time with the starters the way is being called for without disturbing the other priorities and there is no evidence that that is even a problem...

So preparing the guy you planned on using as the back up PG and possible down the stretch in certain games in not a priority? 

He didn't say it wasn't a priority, but there were other priorities that were more imporant than this one. And once gain, having Cassell play with the starters more during the season, wouldn't have solved ANY of the Cassell problems during the playoffs, especially when he has been playing mostly with bench players anyways. That he plays maybe with one more starter than usual should not be that big of a factor as you guys are making it out to be, especially when you consider the style of play Cassell plays anyways.

You don't like Doc's rotations? Fine. You don't like his bench units? Fine, but that has NOTHING to do with Cassell's struggles. These are two seperate issues, and one is not the cause of the other. House rarely played with the starters, and didn't play at all during the playoffs, yet he came in and performed really well with the starters anyways. There are other things going on here, there's little relation between Cassell's struggles and the way Doc prepared him during the season.

[winsomme]

well it wasn't their driving that was the problem. it was their running off of screens and getting clean looks at three's. and yeah, Sam had trouble keeping up with those guys and that had NOTHING to do with Doc.

i called for him to make the move House also....but blaming this on Doc not getting Sam with the starters during the final weeks of the regular season is ridiculous.

Doc's priorities for the final weeks were the right one's and that included getting the starters rest while keeping them fresh too....

there was simply no way to get Sam time with the starters the way is being called for without disturbing the other priorities and there is no evidence that that is even a problem...

So preparing the guy you planned on using as the back up PG and possible down the stretch in certain games in not a priority? 

He didn't say it wasn't a priority, but there were other priorities that were more imporant than this one. And once gain, having Cassell play with the starters more during the season, wouldn't have solved ANY of the Cassell problems during the playoffs, especially when he has been playing mostly with bench players anyways. That he plays maybe with one more starter than usual should not be that big of a factor as you guys are making it out to be, especially when you consider the style of play Cassell plays anyways.

You don't like Doc's rotations? Fine. You don't like his bench units? Fine, but that has NOTHING to do with Cassell's struggles. These are two seperate issues, and one is not the cause of the other.

thank you, Bud. TP.