Doc's Straw Men

[crownsy]

how is it a ridculous argument? sam is a 6.3 assit a game guy, playing him with the starters before you did it dduring the playoffs wouldnt be an attempt to turn him into a "pass first" guy, it would be lettign him practice what he's been doing for the last 15 games in the post season, playing with starters.

what good could it possably do him to play with davis, powe, TA, and eddie/posey the majority of the time during the three garbage weeks when in the post season he plays with ray and at least one other starter?

if i go to play pickup basketball, and play with 4 other guys for 3 weeks, and learn thier games, and then you randomly throw me into the game with mabey 1 of those guys and 3 other guys ive never seen before, it doesn't matter what kind of player i am, i don't know these 3 new guys games as well as i do the others.

explain to me again why asking the head coach to play a player with the people he will be on the floor with when it counts is ridiculous again?

[tanner]

Yeah...  if anything, most of Doc's critics were saying BBD should play *less*, and that the Game 5 performance was fool's gold.  Which it was. 

In that particular game, Doc's hunch paid off, and he was smart to stick with Baby.  That doesn't mean playing BBD was the logical move at the time; it wasn't. 

I read somebody put it as Doc relying much on 'feel' with his decisions.  When you do that, you could be wrong one game and be right the next.  And when you're right next game, it's not necessarily a vindication of your prior move. 

As I recall, it wasn't just the matter of people wanting Davis or not. In Game 4 (if i remember correctly), the criticism was more about timing--throwing an ice-cold rookie into the last quarter of a game, a rookie who's barely seen action in past games.

[winsomme]

how is it a ridculous argument? sam is a 6.3 assit a game guy, playing him with the starters before you did it dduring the playoffs wouldnt be an attempt to turn him into a "pass first" guy, it would be lettign him practice what he's been doing for the last 15 games in the post season, playing with starters.

what good could it possably do him to play with davis, powe, TA, and eddie/posey 95% of the time during the three garbage weeks when in the post season he plays with ray and at least one other starter?

if i go to play pickup basketball, and play with 4 other guys, and learn thier games, and then you randomly throw me into the game with mabey 1 of those guys and 3 other guys ive never seen before, it doesn't matter what kind of player i am, i don't know these 3 new guys games as well as i do the others.

explain to me again why asking the head coach to play a player with the people he will be on the floor with when it counts is ridiculous again?

Rondo played 27  MPG the final two months of the season.

Sam played 16 MPG in March and 20 MPG in April..

Eddie played 16 MPG in March and 21 MPG in April...

this is a perfect example of the preposterous arguments that the Doc critics put forth...

suggesting that Rondo needed more rest is patently absurd....he is our starting PG in his first playoffs. if anything he needs as much playing time as he can get.

and please explain to me where the evidence is that Sam is ill-equipped to play with the starters...

[Roy Hobbs]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Seriously, are you capable of arguing without putting words in people's mouth?

What wdleehi said -- and he has a long history of saying this, as do I -- is that Doc shouldn't have gone to five-man bench units.  Instead of making wholesale "line changes" where he rotated the entire bench in at or near the same time, he should have left at least two starters on the floor at any given time.  Sam would have been better served being occasionally paired with Pierce or KG, since that's the role he'd be playing in the playoffs (since Pierce and KG are playing 40+ minutes).

How does this equate to being a "pass first PG"?  Or starting Sam over Rondo?  It's possible to play with starters without starting the game.  In fact, it's what House and Cassell have been doing these playoffs.

[winsomme]

what good could it possably do him to play with davis, powe, TA, and eddie/posey the majority of the time during the three garbage weeks when in the post season he plays with ray and at least one other starter?

also, if the guy is the backup PG, then who better to get PT with than the people he is actually going to be ON the court with in the playoffs....

[winsomme]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

so you wanted Cassell playing with the starters over Rondo?

and you are criticizing Doc for in the matter of weeks not reinventing Sam Cassell into a pass first PG when his whole career has been predicated on him working off his ability to score...

Seriously, are you capable of arguing without putting words in people's mouth?

What wdleehi said -- and he has a long history of saying this, as do I -- is that Doc shouldn't have gone to five-man bench units.  Instead of making wholesale "line changes" where he rotated the entire bench in at or near the same time, he should have left at least two starters on the floor at any given time.  Sam would have been better served being occasionally paired with Pierce or KG, since that's the role he'd be playing in the playoffs (since Pierce and KG are playing 40+ minutes).

How does this equate to being a "pass first PG"?  Or starting Sam over Rondo?  It's possible to play with starters without starting the game.  In fact, it's what House and Cassell have been doing these playoffs.

it seems like you are the one putting words in his mouth. not me...

and the reason he gave for starting Sam over Rondo (which by the way is ridiculous) is so that Sam would not be looking to score....something he has NEVER not done

[expobear]

We had roughly three weeks of garbage time where Doc could have made those adjustments to the rotation to prepare everyone for their role, and he didn't.  That was poor decision making.  Leaving Sam in the rotation when he was roughly 0-for-88 on the road was a poor decision, as well.  Results matter.

That is the part that bothers me the most.  The trying to do the rotation on the fly.  The mixing and matching of bench players to starters that has been going on in the 1st 2 rounds.


I do hope he has finally settled on a rotation.  And, please, don't have him panic when the Pistons win a game and come out the next game with a different rotational pattern. 


One last thing, I think he did a terrible job getting Cassell ready to be part of this team for the playoffs.  During the regular season, the majority of Cassell time came with the entire bench.  Few minutes with the starters.  His role was to be shooter and scorer.  Come playoff time, that's all he was prepared to do even when better options were in. 

You like to hope his experience would have better prepared him, but it didn't. 

The thing is why mess with a rotation that produced a 66-16 record?  When Rivers starts to tinker with his rotation in the middle of the playoffs, this tells me he has no confidence in his team and he has to make adjustments to counter other teams' strengths. Quit screwing around with the rotations and make other teams make the adjustments to what produced the best record in the NBA. I'm make no bones that I'm a Powe fan and he's pretty much the only reason why I post here.  Powe doesn't need to play 25 minutes a game, but he should be playing 10-15 minutes a game as well as House and Brown. Rivers needs to play the players who got him this far......any tinkering at this point messes with all the players' minds. If Rivers is dissatisfied with his rotations, he had time before the regular season ended to correct this.  That being said, nothing for Celtic fans to worry about - all the Celtics need to do is hold serve and all discussions about rotations and who should be playing are moot.

[winsomme]

an again, where is the evidence that Sam is ill-equipped to play with the starters....

[Roy Hobbs]

and the reason he gave for starting Sam over Rondo (which by the way is ridiculous) is so that Sam would not be looking to score....something he has NEVER not done

Um, no.  That wasn't said.  wdleehi said Cassell shouldn't be playing with the "entire bench".  How does that equate to starting in your world?

By playing Sam exclusively with the bench, he took on the role of gunner; he was the primary scoring option.  If he was out there at times with Pierce, KG, et. al. (as he was asked in the playoffs), he wouldn't have felt the same onus to take shots, especially early in the shot clock.

Doc screwed up by not playing Sam in positions down the regular season stretch that he would be asked to play in the playoffs.  Doc made it very clear that he wouldn't be playing five-man bench units in the playoffs, and yet there he was in the regular season, forcing his players into useless roles that they would never see again.

[winsomme]

and the reason he gave for starting Sam over Rondo (which by the way is ridiculous) is so that Sam would not be looking to score....something he has NEVER not done

Um, no.  That wasn't said.  wdleehi said Cassell shouldn't be playing with the "entire bench".  How does that equate to starting in your world?

By playing Sam exclusively with the bench, he took on the role of gunner; he was the primary scoring option.  If he was out there at times with Pierce, KG, et. al. (as he was asked in the playoffs), he wouldn't have felt the same onus to take shots, especially early in the shot clock.

Doc screwed up by not playing Sam in positions down the regular season stretch that he would be asked to play in the playoffs.  Doc made it very clear that he wouldn't be playing five-man bench units in the playoffs, and yet there he was in the regular season, forcing his players into useless roles that they would never see again.

there is absolutely no evidence that Sam:

1) is ill-equipped to play with the starters

2) that Sam's game has ever been anything but a PG who works off looking for his shot first.

to criticize Doc for not getting Sam to totally revamp his game is patently absurd....

it is added to the long list of bogus complaints about Doc as a coach...

[crownsy]

how is it a ridculous argument? sam is a 6.3 assit a game guy, playing him with the starters before you did it dduring the playoffs wouldnt be an attempt to turn him into a "pass first" guy, it would be lettign him practice what he's been doing for the last 15 games in the post season, playing with starters.

what good could it possably do him to play with davis, powe, TA, and eddie/posey 95% of the time during the three garbage weeks when in the post season he plays with ray and at least one other starter?

if i go to play pickup basketball, and play with 4 other guys, and learn thier games, and then you randomly throw me into the game with mabey 1 of those guys and 3 other guys ive never seen before, it doesn't matter what kind of player i am, i don't know these 3 new guys games as well as i do the others.

explain to me again why asking the head coach to play a player with the people he will be on the floor with when it counts is ridiculous again?

Rondo played 27  MPG the final two months of the season.

Sam played 16 MPG in March and 20 MPG in April..

Eddie played 16 MPG in March and 21 MPG in April...

this is a perfect example of the preposterous arguments that the Doc critics put forth...

suggesting that Rondo needed more rest is patently absurd....he is our starting PG in his first playoffs. if anything he needs as much playing time as he can get.

and please explain to me where the evidence is that Sam is ill-equipped to play with the starters...

way to not address anything i said in my post.

What does thier minutes have to do with what i was talking about, namely who was on the floor with who? i never once said that rondo needed more rest. I said that since it was garbage time, you could rest him and put sam in with some of the starters, which is who he has been playing with.

the evidence that sam is ill equipped to play with the starters? how about that his team defense was so bad with said starters on the floor that a 2nd year PG in boobie gibson was able to destroy him so badly that he got himself benched? or his 3-25 recent shooting preformances, where he struggled to find his place within the flow of the offense while the starters were on the floor with him?

even his one great game, game 2 CLEV, where he bailed us out of a large hole, much to his credit,  was made with only ray on the floor after doc pulled the starters because they were playing without any passion. not surpsingly, sam looked much more comfrtable with the bench players he played with in the regular season, both offensivly and defensivly.


and please don't call arguments agaisnt doc "ridiculous" when you yourself don't address any of the points in the post your trying to use to justify said argument being ridculous...

[Roy Hobbs]

it is added to the long list of bogus complaints about Doc as a coach...

Since you're once again mischaracterizing people's posts, I'm not going to argue with you.  One more time, you've proven yourself incapable of reasonable discussion, and feel the need to caricature / miscast others' opinions, to fit your own agenda.

[winsomme]

it is added to the long list of bogus complaints about Doc as a coach...

Since you're once again mischaracterizing people's posts, I'm not going to argue with you.  One more time, you've proven yourself incapable of reasonable discussion, and feel the need to caricature / miscast others' opinions, to fit your own agenda.

please tell me where the evidence is that Sam has ever been a player to not look work off his scoring and where the evidence is that Sam is ill-equipped to play with the starters..

it would be nice if there was some actual evidence to support the claims...

[Roy Hobbs]

once again, you have proven that when the facts don't support an argument you attack the poster...

The argument was that Doc shouldn't have played Cassell with five-man bench units down the stretch, but instead should have been played in a manner similar to his eventual playoff role.

You warped that into an argument that Cassell should have been starting, continued on with that, got called out on it, and now modified your argument once again to something it wasn't.  You do this consistently; pointing out your "debating" tactics is not a personal attack, nor is my declining to get drawn into a drawn out conversation with you.

Have fun putting words in people's mouth.  When the facts don't support your argument, make them up.

[crownsy]

i just gave you two huge reasons, but much like my first post, which you qouted and then didn't adress,  you chose not to address it.