Sam I Am/House

[crownsy]

I have not seen this constant offenssive log jam you describe with rondo outside of a few games, his lows that i mentioned.

and in response to your claims;

And how many times does he jack up bad shots against three guys? not many, in fact i wish he would shoot MORE, teams leave him alone in the corner because he wont shoot the open look.

how many times does he dribble out the clock? not many that i can see, sometimes he dishes off to a teammate who does this and stands in the corner, but very rarely do i see rondo dribble out the clock. I see sam i am do that alot.

as to your analogy, i don't need it, i get your point, i think your wrong. If that makes me, as you've pointed out "not seeing what your seeing" then there you go. but you don't need to keep explaining your point that rondo has been terrible at running the offense, i understand thats your opinion of his play, i think its wrong, but since you don't want to look at;

A) what i tell you im seeing, since thats discounted as not seeing the same game or tendencies.

or

B) the stats that back up that he's had a good, but certainly not exceptional post season, since you say those don't count.

then there you go, were at an impass. you don't leave any room for discussion, and your main point is "im right, your wrong, and if you don't see it, then thats on you" not really any point to carrying on a discussion then.

that is of course a valid opinion, no doubt we all see things differently, but it doesn't exactly lend itself to any kind of impartial discussion of the kid's play.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I'll just say this, then I'm done.  The stats bare no real relevance to me here because I'm alluding to consistency, that doesn't show up in the stats.

I'm talking about how our offense has looked and how it flows, that doesn't show up in Rondo's stats. It shows more in team performance, but only to an extent.

And to the above, it's one thing to shoot that open corner jumper because it's in the flow of the offense, I have no problem with those types of shots. Jacking up shots, to me, is when he fails to get the team in an offensive set by either coming down and taking a shot right off the bat (which I think he did quite a few times against Atlanta) and when he fails to get our offensive set in motion and simply decides to take a shot himself, but a bad shot at that.  Also, the problem is not that I don't see what you guys see... the problem is that I see what you guys see and also what I see, which you guys aren't seeing.

For example, I'm willing to bet the majority here looks at the game log for Atlanta game #3 and think Rondo played a good game.  I would disagree because what I saw in that game was Rondo shooting us out of the game in the 3rd quarter, which was the most crucial quarter in that game.  Those are the types of disagreements we're having here I'm willing to bet.

And I'll say this, for the same reason people here criticize Cassell is why I'm criticizing Rondo for his play during the playoffs... although he doesn't do it as often as Cassell, he has played quite a bit like him... so I'm a bit doubfounded on how people can easily criticize Cassell for these reasons (though Cassell does it in an exaggerated way) and not notice it when Rondo does it.

And I agree at the impasse, I would've wanted to end this discussion a lot earlier, but when people keep trying to discredit me, I feel the need to respond.  I'll try to keep quiet if someone responds to this post, but can't promise.

[BballTim]

No way has Paul been making better decisions with the ball than Rondo. How many times has he tried to drive and done a kickout pass either to nobody or to an opponent? If Paul doesn't score it's a pretty mixed bag.

Him taking a good shot counts as making better decisions with the ball. He is finding people open when the defense collapses on him, something Rondo has been doing incosistently. And the results don't lie, though Rondo deserves a lot of credit for yesterday himself.

  You're just arbitrarily deciding that when Pierce shoots it's a good decision and when Rondo shoots it's a bad decision. Claims like that are barely worth typing. Rondo's been doing a good job of finding open people despite your claims to the contrary. And the number of turnovers Paul's committing doesn't agree with your assertion that he's making better decisions with the ball.

What I would like you to find out though is how many times Rondo has held the ball too long without making the defense do any work, how many times he has simply come up and jacked a shot up, and how many times he has driven to the basket and taken a bad shot with 3 people on him (especially when there are people open around him). Quite a lot too many by my estimation.

  Not every shot Rondo takes is the best decision, but not every shot he misses was the wrong decision. He's a 2nd year pg on a team that's never played together in the playoffs with two of it's top scorers underperforming for long stretches. But he's more than held his own so far. The fact that he's hitting a decent % of his shots and his low turnover rate (in addition to my own eyes) lead me to believe that it happens less often than you think.

Let me throw a baseball analogy at you to see if you get my reasoning a bit better... let's say you're in the playoffs, but your team doesn't have a closer, what you have is decent reliever (your best reliever)... he gets put in the position to close out games in the playoffs because you don't have anyone else.  So he gives up a run here and there, even blow a save here and there. By closing standars he was terrible, but maybe for a normal reliever he actually performed like the norm... as expected.  Wouldn't you say that the player, during the playoffs, blowing a couple of saves doesn't make him terrible or part of the blame? Sure, it might not be his fault he is in that position, but regardless of why he is in that position, he needs to perform the task. And blowing the saves means that he shares a big chunk of the blame for the loses.

  These analogies are silly. People understand perfectly well what you're trying to say. Some people just disagree with your opinion. Maybe I should come up with an analogy about someone who sees a player have a bad half (bad quarter, really), decides that the player was hurting the team, and spends the rest of the playoffs watching everything that player does for possible mistakes, convinced that the player is the cause for most of the team's problems. But I'm not big on analogies.

[BballTim]

I'll just say this, then I'm done.  The stats bare no real relevance to me here because I'm alluding to consistency, that doesn't show up in the stats.

I'm talking about how our offense has looked and how it flows, that doesn't show up in Rondo's stats. It shows more in team performance, but only to an extent.

And to the above, it's one thing to shoot that open corner jumper because it's in the flow of the offense, I have no problem with those types of shots. Jacking up shots, to me, is when he fails to get the team in an offensive set by either coming down and taking a shot right off the bat (which I think he did quite a few times against Atlanta) and when he fails to get our offensive set in motion and simply decides to take a shot himself, but a bad shot at that.  Also, the problem is not that I don't see what you guys see... the problem is that I see what you guys see and also what I see, which you guys aren't seeing.

  Possibly people aren't seeing what you're seeing because they're more objective about the situation than you are.

For example, I'm willing to bet the majority here looks at the game log for Atlanta game #3 and think Rondo played a good game.  I would disagree because what I saw in that game was Rondo shooting us out of the game in the 3rd quarter, which was the most crucial quarter in that game.  Those are the types of disagreements we're having here I'm willing to bet.

  Sure, Rondo's had some bad shifts. The start of game 2 vs Cleveland wasn't stellar either. The majority of people are able to evaluate his other games on their own merit.

And I'll say this, for the same reason people here criticize Cassell is why I'm criticizing Rondo for his play during the playoffs... although he doesn't do it as often as Cassell, he has played quite a bit like him... so I'm a bit doubfounded on how people can easily criticize Cassell for these reasons (though Cassell does it in an exaggerated way) and not notice it when Rondo does it.

  In the playoffs Cassell has taken 74 shots and has 18 assists. Rondo has taken 156 shots and has 100 assists. Not at all the same. In fact, the 0 assist game that Rondo had was the only single game out of the 15 Rondo's played where his shot to assist ratio wasn't better than what Sam averaged. I'd say "doesn't do it as often as Cassell" is a bit of an understatement.

[BudweiserCeltic]

 You're just arbitrarily deciding that when Pierce shoots it's a good decision and when Rondo shoots it's a bad decision. Claims like that are barely worth typing. Rondo's been doing a good job of finding open people despite your claims to the contrary. And the number of turnovers Paul's committing doesn't agree with your assertion that he's making better decisions with the ball.

It's not really that arbitrary.  You can tell when a shot comes from the flow of he offense and when it doesn't. Pierce is still one of the main scoring options regardless, so he has that going for him, plus all those free-throw line jumpers are money for him, and those are the shots he has been taking as of late... so yeah, they're good shots. That's the play, the pick and roll... that's what they want him to do.

If you at the least can't tell when someone is shooting outside what the offensive system demands, how can you claim to know when someone is running a good offense or not, or playing well for that matter? Decision making is one of the most crucial aspects of a point guard.  It's not that subjective if you study it carefully.

Shot selection is not a myth, it's real and when paying attention, you should be able to notice when something is a bad shot or not.

Not every shot Rondo takes is the best decision, but not every shot he misses was the wrong decision. He's a 2nd year pg on a team that's never played together in the playoffs with two of it's top scorers underperforming for long stretches. But he's more than held his own so far. The fact that he's hitting a decent % of his shots and his low turnover rate (in addition to my own eyes) lead me to believe that it happens less often than you think.

Yet I haven't cared of wether he has been making his shots or not. I care about the types of shots he takes or not. But if we're going to go on about shooting at a decent shot percentage, he hasn't been shooting as well as he did during the season. I wouldn't mind it much, but he is taking a huge amount of shots, many of them which I feel were pure bad shot selection.

These analogies are silly. People understand perfectly well what you're trying to say. Some people just disagree with your opinion. Maybe I should come up with an analogy about someone who sees a player have a bad half (bad quarter, really), decides that the player was hurting the team, and spends the rest of the playoffs watching everything that player does for possible mistakes, convinced that the player is the cause for most of the team's problems. But I'm not big on analogies.

Not really silly because you still don't seem to grasp the concept of where I think Rondo has been hurting us and on how he has been underperforming.  And I'm not doing what you're claiming I'm doing with Rondo. I do it with all the players as much as I can. I've brought you the example of Ray Allen, and telling you how many here are angry at him with his poor shooting performance, and I'm telling you guys that even with his poor shooting performance, he has been a positive influence in our offense, particularly yesterday. Why? Because his responsibility in running the offense isn't as great as Rondo's and he has been moving the ball well in my opinion. Am I dissapointed with Ray and his poor shooting? Yes, but I don't see it as devastating as when I see Rondo struggling with running our offense.  Even if Ray is of the big 3, Rondo running our offense is more important than wether Ray is shooting well or not. And once again, it all ties in to the responsibility Rondo has been handed.

Some of you guys are always crying about Powe's minutes, and why Doc doesn't play him... they end up bashing Doc for it.  Yet, they don't seem to try to understand the circumstances of the situation, they apparently didn't see how Powe has been doing a poor job rebounding the ball, they don't see how he has missed defensive rotations left and right.

Then we have the party that feels that Rondo should be playing 40+ minutes every game... and my argument against it was that it should be only be done in games where he plays well, like yesterday. And my reasoning for this are his incosistencies.  All you've tried to give me is that Rondo, overall has had a nice playoffs, and thrown averages of the playoffs my way. That's not good enough because they don't show the incosistencies... being inconsistent tells you that Rondo shouldn't be playing 40 minutes every game because he doesn't warrant it every game. That's the bottom line, and the reason why Doc doesn't play him 40 minutes every game even when Cassell has struggled, is because Doc hasn't been happy with the way Rondo has been running the offense either, certainly among other things. There's a basis to my claims, and they are backed up at the least with what the coaches are seeing.

I'll tell you this, Doc needs to play him more when he's playing good... he has to do a better job at that. But it shouldn't be a "if Doc doesn't play Rondo 40 minutes he sucks"... it should be on a game by game basis depending on how Rondo is playing.

Possibly people aren't seeing what you're seeing because they're more objective about the situation than you are.

I know I'm not alone in thinking Rondo has been quite inconsistent in the playoffs.

In the playoffs Cassell has taken 74 shots and has 18 assists. Rondo has taken 156 shots and has 100 assists. Not at all the same. In fact, the 0 assist game that Rondo had was the only single game out of the 15 Rondo's played where his shot to assist ratio wasn't better than what Sam averaged. I'd say "doesn't do it as often as Cassell" is a bit of an understatement.

Once again, twisting the context of what I'm saying... it's all in the context of consistency, and I've said quite a few times already that I could care less wether Rondo is making assists or not, as long as he has our offense moving in a decent manner.

Fact is, regardless of what I'm saying, Rondo has been playing quite incosistent... I don't know how anyone can dispute it. And when you put it in context on the responsibility he has on our offense, I don't see how can people can deny the effects he has in offensive struggles.  Just as he's vastly responsible when our offense has done good this postseason, and I give him credit in those instances, he is just as vastly responsible for the struggles. And I know I'm not the only that sees this, and I'm not sure how can anyone dispute it.

But whatever, stop nitpicking my posts lol, especially if taking what I'm saying out of context. I want to put this topic to rest, but if you keep replying I'll have to respond, and I'm tired of explaining myself in order to get misinterpreted and my posts taken out of context again.

[crownsy]

no, as i tried to say, we grasp it, we just disagree.

and again, in this anyalsis, you closed all debate by shooting down his first 3 points not with logic, but with "you should be able to tell what bad shots are" and "he's taken a huge amount of shots" one of which, again, is indeed completely arbitrary, because its based on your opinion only, which your more than entitled to, but is not a counter point. the second point doesn't seem backed up by the fact that he has only taken 150 shots. thats 10 shots a game on average. Thats fine for a PG that the defense often leaves wide open. ITs far less than the big three take, although ray allen has become gun shy over the last 5 games.

If i say the sky is red, and you say its blue, but i continue to insist its red and that you just don't see it, thats not a counter point or fact, thats my opinion.

Thats why i'm just going to leave this thread, i just dont see the point to posting anymore. someone brings up a reasonable point, and its countered by saying "well, you don't see it the way i do, trust me im right in what im seeing, and your mistaken."

thats not a discussion, its a closed statement....

[BudweiserCeltic]

no, as i tried to say, we grasp it, we just disagree.

and again, in this anyalsis, you closed all debate by shooting down his first 3 points not with logic, but with "you should be able to tell what bad shots are" and "he's taken a huge amount of shots" one of which, again, is indeed completely arbitrary, because its based on your opinion only, which your more than entitled to, but is not a counter point. the second point doesn't seem backed up by the fact that he has only taken 150 shots. thats 10 shots a game on average. Thats fine for a PG that the defense often leaves wide open. ITs far less than the big three take, although ray allen has become gun shy over the last 5 games.

If i say the sky is red, and you say its blue, but i continue to insist its red and that you just don't see it, thats not a counter point or fact, thats my opinion.

Thats why i'm just going to leave this thread, i just dont see the point to posting anymore. someone brings up a reasonable point, and its countered by saying "well, you don't see it the way i do, trust me im right in what im seeing, and your mistaken."

thats not a discussion, its a closed statement....

I completely agree with you in this... I said it quite a few posts back, there's no way for me to prove my point to you guys and there's no way for you guys to disprove what I'm saying, if you don't see you don't see it. I know I'm right, and I'm sure you guys feel the same respectively... we just can't prove the cases to each other.  The only thing would be go back and watch all the games, but that's not a reasonable solution. Heck, the best I could do is point you to quite a few articles in the Globe/Herald where they keep questioning Rondo's play during the playoffs and how he has been "wildly inconsistent" as one article put it. At this point I was mainly trying to get my point across and make myself understood rather than trying to convince you guys of what I'm saying, and from what I see I haven't been understood yet.

Just the same, how can anyone prove Cassell's ball hogging and lack of ball movement? How can anyone prove when Powe misses a defensive assignment? You pretty much can't, unless you're watching the game and paying attention to this things.

While we are at it, go ask Doc or anyone that coaches if they think shot selection is completely arbitrary. This is no myth, this is nothing new, players are constantly being evaluated through their shot selection.

And you may understand what I'm saying, but seeing what BballTim is posting leads me to believe that he hasn't gotten what I'm saying quite, so don't speak for him on "we grasp" it as I was responding to him, not to you. And once again, you keep using averages to prove your point... that does nothing to discredit my point of incosistency, so no you don't seem to grasp it either in that regard. As an extreme case, Rondo can have a 20 shot game and then a 0 shot game, and his average will be 10. Sure he's averaging that, but just the same he IS incosistent in this example, which is what I've been pointing at, so no need to throw those stats at me.

[BballTim]

  You're just arbitrarily deciding that when Pierce shoots it's a good decision and when Rondo shoots it's a bad decision. Claims like that are barely worth typing. Rondo's been doing a good job of finding open people despite your claims to the contrary. And the number of turnovers Paul's committing doesn't agree with your assertion that he's making better decisions with the ball.

It's not really that arbitrary.  You can tell when a shot comes from the flow of he offense and when it doesn't. Pierce is still one of the main scoring options regardless, so he has that going for him, plus all those free-throw line jumpers are money for him, and those are the shots he has been taking as of late... so yeah, they're good shots. That's the play, the pick and roll... that's what they want him to do.

If you at the least can't tell when someone is shooting outside what the offensive system demands, how can you claim to know when someone is running a good offense or not, or playing well for that matter? Decision making is one of the most crucial aspects of a point guard.  It's not that subjective if you study it carefully.

Shot selection is not a myth, it's real and when paying attention, you should be able to notice when something is a bad shot or not.

  I didn't say or imply that I can't tell when someone is shooting outside what the offensive system demands. I just think that a lot of Paul's shots are ill-advised, just like you claim some of Rondo's are. If you were John Wooden, you could probably assume that people who disagree with you do so because they don't see what's happening in a game as well as you do. But you're not.

Not every shot Rondo takes is the best decision, but not every shot he misses was the wrong decision. He's a 2nd year pg on a team that's never played together in the playoffs with two of it's top scorers underperforming for long stretches. But he's more than held his own so far. The fact that he's hitting a decent % of his shots and his low turnover rate (in addition to my own eyes) lead me to believe that it happens less often than you think.

Yet I haven't cared of wether he has been making his shots or not. I care about the types of shots he takes or not. But if we're going to go on about shooting at a decent shot percentage, he hasn't been shooting as well as he did during the season. I wouldn't mind it much, but he is taking a huge amount of shots, many of them which I feel were pure bad shot selection.

  He's only taking 1 shot a game more than he was during the season. And all 5 of the starters are shooting at a lower percentage than they were during the season.

These analogies are silly. People understand perfectly well what you're trying to say. Some people just disagree with your opinion. Maybe I should come up with an analogy about someone who sees a player have a bad half (bad quarter, really), decides that the player was hurting the team, and spends the rest of the playoffs watching everything that player does for possible mistakes, convinced that the player is the cause for most of the team's problems. But I'm not big on analogies.

Not really silly because you still don't seem to grasp the concept of where I think Rondo has been hurting us and on how he has been underperforming.  And I'm not doing what you're claiming I'm doing with Rondo. I do it with all the players as much as I can. I've brought you the example of Ray Allen, and telling you how many here are angry at him with his poor shooting performance, and I'm telling you guys that even with his poor shooting performance, he has been a positive influence in our offense, particularly yesterday. Why? Because his responsibility in running the offense isn't as great as Rondo's and he has been moving the ball well in my opinion. Am I dissapointed with Ray and his poor shooting? Yes, but I don't see it as devastating as when I see Rondo struggling with running our offense.  Even if Ray is of the big 3, Rondo running our offense is more important than wether Ray is shooting well or not. And once again, it all ties in to the responsibility Rondo has been handed.

  When you say that Ray's having a positive effect on our offense, what are you comparing it to? Ray's influence on our offense during the season? Because his poor shooting is having a negative effect on our offense. He might be moving the ball well, but the defenders are paying less attention to him than usual. In other words, the fact that he's less of a threat makes it harder for Rondo to run the offense. And that doesn't account fot the posessions we spend trying to get him out of his slump.

Then we have the party that feels that Rondo should be playing 40+ minutes every game... and my argument against it was that it should be only be done in games where he plays well, like yesterday. And my reasoning for this are his incosistencies.  All you've tried to give me is that Rondo, overall has had a nice playoffs, and thrown averages of the playoffs my way. That's not good enough because they don't show the incosistencies... being inconsistent tells you that Rondo shouldn't be playing 40 minutes every game because he doesn't warrant it every game. That's the bottom line, and the reason why Doc doesn't play him 40 minutes every game even when Cassell has struggled, is because Doc hasn't been happy with the way Rondo has been running the offense either, certainly among other things. There's a basis to my claims, and they are backed up at the least with what the coaches are seeing.

  We've seen Paul struggle at times during the playoffs, and we've seen Ray struggle a great deal during the playoffs. But neither of them have lost any minutes because of it. Clearly Doc won't take them out if they're screwing up the offense. What other option does he have besides Rondo? There have been times where Doc tries to run the offense through Paul instead of Rondo and we'll have 4-5 bad possessions in a row. Doc's solution will be to pull Rondo and put in House or Cassell. This helps, because they spread things out more with their outside shooting and Paul has more room to operate. But the real solution was to let rondo run the offense. Paul's been hot the last few games. But before he was Doc was still trying to run the offense through Paul, generally with poor results.

In the playoffs Cassell has taken 74 shots and has 18 assists. Rondo has taken 156 shots and has 100 assists. Not at all the same. In fact, the 0 assist game that Rondo had was the only single game out of the 15 Rondo's played where his shot to assist ratio wasn't better than what Sam averaged. I'd say "doesn't do it as often as Cassell" is a bit of an understatement.

Once again, twisting the context of what I'm saying... it's all in the context of consistency, and I've said quite a few times already that I could care less wether Rondo is making assists or not, as long as he has our offense moving in a decent manner.

  How did I twist the context of what you're saying? You didn't put it in any context. You said "for the same reason people here criticize Cassell is why I'm criticizing Rondo for his play during the playoffs". People have been criticizing Sam for just shooting the ball and never passing it. Clearly rondo doesn't do this.

Fact is, regardless of what I'm saying, Rondo has been playing quite incosistent... I don't know how anyone can dispute it. And when you put it in context on the responsibility he has on our offense, I don't see how can people can deny the effects he has in offensive struggles.  Just as he's vastly responsible when our offense has done good this postseason, and I give him credit in those instances, he is just as vastly responsible for the struggles. And I know I'm not the only that sees this, and I'm not sure how can anyone dispute it.

  It seems to be a chicken and egg thing. If Rondo's the pg and Paul and Ray are struggling on offense, how many good options does that leave for Rondo when he runs the offense? I don't see how anyone could fail to see how having your top offensive threats struggle can have a strong negative effect on yout offense. Yet you seem to absolve them of any blame for our offensive woes because it's Rondo's responsibility to get the offense running. Rondo's been inconsistent, but not by himself. The entire team has been inconsistent. Rondo hasn't really been singled out as you imply. How often have the other starters been playing well and Rondo's been screwing up? Not much, if at all. If the playoffs were littered with cases of Paul and KG playing well on the offensive end and Rondo killing us with his decision making then you'd have a better case.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Wow, this post ended being the crappiest post I've ever written... read at your own risk.

He's only taking 1 shot a game more than he was during the season. And all 5 of the starters are shooting at a lower percentage than they were during the season.

Again with the averages, I'm talking about CONSISTENCY, giving me per game stats are not relevant here.

When you say that Ray's having a positive effect on our offense, what are you comparing it to? Ray's influence on our offense during the season? Because his poor shooting is having a negative effect on our offense. He might be moving the ball well, but the defenders are paying less attention to him than usual. In other words, the fact that he's less of a threat makes it harder for Rondo to run the offense. And that doesn't account fot the posessions we spend trying to get him out of his slump.

Defenders paying less attention to Ray is pure garbage. Didn't you see the Cleveland series? His poor shooting does have a negative effect, BUT his overall play last night wasn't negative. And once again, you need to factor in the amount of responsibility he has on our offensive system... which is the most important factor in my argument, yet you keep dismissing it and you need to factor what else he is doing on offense besides missing shots. Rondo's responsibility, during the playoffs, in running our offense has been huge.  If you don't believe me, go watch how Rondo played the point earlier in the season and compare it to now. It's that responsibility that makes him playing consitantly good basketball so crucial.

We've seen Paul struggle at times during the playoffs, and we've seen Ray struggle a great deal during the playoffs. But neither of them have lost any minutes because of it. Clearly Doc won't take them out if they're screwing up the offense. What other option does he have besides Rondo? There have been times where Doc tries to run the offense through Paul instead of Rondo and we'll have 4-5 bad possessions in a row. Doc's solution will be to pull Rondo and put in House or Cassell. This helps, because they spread things out more with their outside shooting and Paul has more room to operate. But the real solution was to let rondo run the offense. Paul's been hot the last few games. But before he was Doc was still trying to run the offense through Paul, generally with poor results.

The problem is that Rondo has been running the offense to a high degree during the playoffs, and that's my main complaint coaching wise. Rondo is not ready for this responsibility, and that he has been incosistent in running our offense makes my point. But with that being said, it's no excuse for not having Rondo playing well in a cosistent basis.  Sure, they makes some plays to run through Garnett and some to run through Pierce, but by an large it has been Rondo running the offense, and just the same deciding through whom to run plays is part of running the offense... that's why you call plays, etc.

How did I twist the context of what you're saying? You didn't put it in any context. You said "for the same reason people here criticize Cassell is why I'm criticizing Rondo for his play during the playoffs". People have been criticizing Sam for just shooting the ball and never passing it. Clearly rondo doesn't do this.

Because I was alluding to a previous posts to which I was pointing out how Rondo has been jacking up shots here and there, taking ill advised shots with little ball movement, etc. There's ZERO reason or need for Rondo to even attempt this even once in any given game, and there have been quite a few games that he has done these awful playmaking decisions time and time again, many times during crucial times. And the main problem here is that, unlike Cassell, Rondo is not suited for this type of game.  I can live with Cassell jacking up shots here and there because that's his game, it's not Rondo's and it completely kills our offense when he does it. Other than going back and watching some film, and can't point to you for some exact situations other than keep a watchful eye in the following games (though I hope we don't get to see it).

It seems to be a chicken and egg thing. If Rondo's the pg and Paul and Ray are struggling on offense, how many good options does that leave for Rondo when he runs the offense? I don't see how anyone could fail to see how having your top offensive threats struggle can have a strong negative effect on yout offense. Yet you seem to absolve them of any blame for our offensive woes because it's Rondo's responsibility to get the offense running. Rondo's been inconsistent, but not by himself. The entire team has been inconsistent. Rondo hasn't really been singled out as you imply. How often have the other starters been playing well and Rondo's been screwing up? Not much, if at all. If the playoffs were littered with cases of Paul and KG playing well on the offensive end and Rondo killing us with his decision making then you'd have a better case.

I haven't absolved anyone. I am though putting a big chunk of the blame on Rondo because of his responsibility. There's a difference. It's a combination of things, but I'll keep pointing this out, I care more about the types of shots we're taking than if we're actually making them or not, and what the PG is doing in order to facillitate our stars to get their shots off... and big portion of that has to do with Rondo and his ball distribution and how he attacks a defense. And I agree with you that everyone has been inconsistent in one form of another, but that doesn't mean that our struggles don't start with our shaky PG position. Isn't that why the position is so important? Because they are the floor generals? As I mentioned above, I give Rondo his due credit when our team's offense is running well, but it's been happening too far in between. You also need to consider shot distribution and finding ways to get the ball to players in certain situations.  No game speaks more clearly to me than the first game against the Cavs, and them only finding Ray 4 times in the whole night (though Cassell shares a ton of the blame too).

Has Paul Pierce screwed up in many games? Yes. Has Ray Allen screwed up in many games? Yes. Even so it shouldn't be an excuse for Rondo making bad decisions and our offense looking as stagnant as it has looked... and that's the key word here, stagnant. It's one thing to be missing shots through a good offensive system, it's another be missing shots because our offensive system is not flowing as it should. And it's another thing to have players making big shots despite the bad offensive system.  I think during the playoffs we've had too many of the "missing shots because of the offensive system is not flowing as it should" problem, and that shouldn't be the case... and when that occurs, it's in a big part Rondo's blame. Take game 1 against Detroit as an example. Great ball movement, initiated by Rondo, yet Ray missed his shots. But the offense was still running as it should... that's what I want to see.

I want to see more of the "they're making shots because the offensive system is flowing as it should" or "they're missing shots even though the offensive system is flowing as it should", and I see Rondo being responsible for making this happen to a high degree, and to make it happen in a consistent manner. Sure, the rest of the players need to play their part, but none of them share the responsibility on making it happen as Rondo's had. He has really been the glue, and if he's not making those good decisions, everything falls appart.

Do Pierce and Allen need to own up to when they break off from the system and take bad shots outside the system? Of course, but they haven't been as bad at that as Rondo has been and again I point to the level of responsibility and the roles these players have on our teams. All these things play into it.

And I'll point to the Cleveland series again, didn't you notice the difference in ball movement when House was in the game and when Rondo was in the game? Even when our team was struggling, I thought our offensive system looked much better. That's what I'm talking about, not really about individual successes or failure, but more of the types of opportunities and how the offense looks. The thing is that more often than not, if the offensive flow looks good, players will shoot well. Players shooting poorly shouldn't be an excuse for our offense to look bad, though often it leads to it for whatever reason.

To put it more into perspective, now that Pierce is handling the ball more, if he starts taking bad shots and not finding the open man like he has been doing, I'll put a ton of the blame on him and not care about Rondo at all if he's missing shots or not (as I said this is not the issue for me).

It simply comes with the territory, the coach gives you the go to control the game and the offense, which Rondo has been doing to a high degree, then he has to start making good decisions in a cosistent basis regardless of how you're shooting etc.  So far during the playoff, in offense, Rondo has only been a positive force so far only in games when he has been shooting well, and that shouldn't be the case. He should be a positive force regardless of how he has been shooting.  That is what should sepparate him from Cassell, but really hasn't (other than shooting well at a more consistent basis than Cassell, which is not much of a compliment).

I'll end with just pointing out the games in which I've thought Rondo played poorly, in the context that I have described, and you make judgemtns on them on however you see fit:

Atlanta games (3-6)
Cleveland games (2,3,6,7)


Blah, I'm sleep deprived and did a ton of rambling here... just let it be. What a crappy post, but I already wasted my time writing it.

[2short]

I think Doc will come to a cross road here. As this series goes along the Pistons will pick up the ball pressure especially when Hunter is in the game he one of the best at pressuring the ball and in a close game it can make a difference.Now Doc has been going with House again(great move)i'm just worried that House wont be able to deal with Hunter's pressure when Rondo is not in the game.Cassell is the better ball handler but House is giving us better overall production and energy.It will be intresting to see if Doc sticks with House all the way.

Sam should get some minutes per game (SOME) in this series.  But I would make sure to have house on the court as pg when ray is at sg (or pierce) and have them bring the ball up.

[Who]

That little discussion got a bit hard to read over the last page or two ... but I've been seeing a lot of what BudweiserCeltic has been talking about with Rondo and I agree with a lot of his points on Rondo.

I don't think Rondo has played that well in the playoffs, he's been very inconsistent running the offense and it's caused the team problems. Too many possessions where he's slow to get the team into it's offense. Too many 5 minute periods where he doesn't get KG the ball despite KG scoring at will down low. Too many times missing Ray Allen on screens off the ball (Atlanta). Too many bad decisions driving into the lane. That type of stuff.

I also think his defense was very inconsistent against Cleveland, outside of the odd 5 minute spell he rarely pressured Delonte West which would have been very nice since Delonte is a suspect ballhandler.

[BudweiserCeltic]

That little discussion got a bit hard to read over the last page or two ... but I've been seeing a lot of what BudweiserCeltic has been talking about with Rondo and I agree with a lot of his points on Rondo.

I don't think Rondo has played that well in the playoffs, he's been very inconsistent running the offense and it's caused the team problems. Too many possessions where he's slow to get the team into it's offense. Too many 5 minute periods where he doesn't get KG the ball despite KG scoring at will down low. Too many times missing Ray Allen on screens off the ball (Atlanta). Too many bad decisions driving into the lane. That type of stuff.

I also think his defense was very inconsistent against Cleveland, outside of the odd 5 minute spell he rarely pressured Delonte West which would have been very nice since Delonte is a suspect ballhandler.

Awesome some support. Although you probably didn't follow my posts well, it was worth it to have someone support what I'm seeing. Great. And I agree completely with all the other points you're making, especially hitting players coming off screens (something he needs to work on). I have also noticed his defensive problems, but didn't want to bring it up because I was sure many here would disagree on how poorly he defended Delonto during stretches, and Bibby for that matter when they played in Atlanta.

[Chris]

That little discussion got a bit hard to read over the last page or two ... but I've been seeing a lot of what BudweiserCeltic has been talking about with Rondo and I agree with a lot of his points on Rondo.

I don't think Rondo has played that well in the playoffs, he's been very inconsistent running the offense and it's caused the team problems. Too many possessions where he's slow to get the team into it's offense. Too many 5 minute periods where he doesn't get KG the ball despite KG scoring at will down low. Too many times missing Ray Allen on screens off the ball (Atlanta). Too many bad decisions driving into the lane. That type of stuff.

Offensively, I think the only thing Rondo is doing wrong is not shooting the ball.  That is what is causing the problems.  When he hasn't been shooting, it has made it very tough for him to be effective, because his man sags off so much, and clogs up the entire offense.

When they are playing off of him like that, it makes it nearly impossible for him to make an entry pass to Garnett, or get the ball to Allen in a position to shoot, because Rondo's man is hanging out in the passing lanes, and already going for the double team before the pass is even made. 

I actually think the offense ran very well with him on Tuesday, and that was purely because they actually had Hamilton up on him pressuring him in the halfcourt, rather than "roaming" off of him like the Cleveland and Atlanta defenders did.  If Saunders doesn't make an adjustment on that, he should be fired on the spot.

I also think his defense was very inconsistent against Cleveland, outside of the odd 5 minute spell he rarely pressured Delonte West which would have been very nice since Delonte is a suspect ballhandler.

This I agree with, and has been one of my complaints about him all year.  He doesn't keep up the intensity on defense throughout a game.  I don't know if he gets tired or what, but he only seems to be able to put the pressure on for short stretches.  It is frustrating to watch.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Offensively, I think the only thing Rondo is doing wrong is not shooting the ball.  That is what is causing the problems.  When he hasn't been shooting, it has made it very tough for him to be effective, because his man sags off so much, and clogs up the entire offense.

I'd like to tweak what you're saying a bit. I don't see much of a problem with the amount of shots Rondo has taken. Actually, at times I think he has taken too many. The reason I say this because I see him taking the wrong kind of shot time and time again. Now, what I think you're reffering to, is to when he's left alone in the corner, or near the top of the key and a pass comes to him, through our ball movement, and he is tentative to take that shot. In that regards I agree with you.

When they are playing off of him like that, it makes it nearly impossible for him to make an entry pass to Garnett, or get the ball to Allen in a position to shoot, because Rondo's man is hanging out in the passing lanes, and already going for the double team before the pass is even made. 

Those are valid points, and I'll say this too, he doesn't seem to time his passes well in that in the NBA usually there's a small window to get a pass through, and you need to take it... I think Rondo doesn't trust himself much to do this and ends up holding the ball too much for my liking, etc. Case in point when he misses Ray coming off the screen or when Garnett finally gets in position for an entry pass. He's not an accurate passer, though at times has a knack to find the open player, even if the pass is not acccurate. I think it was JVG that touched on this a bit, saying that you as a PG have to make sure that your pass to a shooter is made so that the shooter gets the ball in a position to catch and shoot.  That's something I think Rondo needs to work at.
 

I actually think the offense ran very well with him on Tuesday, and that was purely because they actually had Hamilton up on him pressuring him in the halfcourt, rather than "roaming" off of him like the Cleveland and Atlanta defenders did.  If Saunders doesn't make an adjustment on that, he should be fired on the spot.

I completely agree, and I've mentioned it a couple of times in this thread... the way Rondo played on Tuesday is how he should play every game, even if he ends up with zero points or zero assists. He moved the ball well, made good passes, and took the shots he needed to take for the most part.

This I agree with, and has been one of my complaints about him all year.  He doesn't keep up the intensity on defense throughout a game.  I don't know if he gets tired or what, but he only seems to be able to put the pressure on for short stretches.  It is frustrating to watch.

It has been one of my main complaints this season too and I think it has a lot to do with his defensive stance. He plays people as if he were standing up straight, instead of squating down and keeping his defender between his knees. Once he starts doing that better, he'll be a great defender. I'll say this, he has improved vastly on this during the season, but it still not where it's supoosed to be at.

[joebianca]

If Eddie can't bring the ball up, use Pierce or whoever else as the primary ball handler.  I think Eddie is too important to bench.

I agree, Jesus can bring the ball up too. I wouldn't, however, just bench Cassell from now on, as he's still a valuable offensive player. So what he killed us in a couple of games? Ray has killed us way more times than Sam, and he's still starting..