Author Topic: Sam I Am/House  (Read 21104 times)

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Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 02:26:27 PM »

Offline Redz

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You've got to be impressed with House's attitude and readiness.   That he could step right back in and pick up where he left off under these circumstances is pretty [dang] impressive. 

It reminds me a bit of Ellsbury stepping in for Coco in the Cleveland series last year for the Sox.
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Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 02:43:15 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Again, nothing to do with his stats... I could care less on how his shot is falling or not, he simply hasn't been moving the ball well period.  It's not about Paul, KG, or Ray not shooting well, it's when Rondo starts playing like Cassell that we're in trouble, and hes been doing it quite a lot during the playoffs. He starts holding the ball, not making intelligent decisions, etc.

If you can't see it, well I guess we can't discuss any further, but can't argue about something that you're not noticing. But I'm telling you, it's very apparent to me how he hasn't been moving the ball... not the team, him in particular. Last night he couldn've had zero points and zero assists, and I'd be happy with the way he played.

As a tangent, so that you can see where I'm coming from, even though Ray Allen underperformed, I thought he had a fairly nice game, where he didn't really hurt the team because he was doing everything well except shooting.  When Rondo is not playing well, it drags our offense to the ground because it means he has stopped moving the ball, and the effects of it are magnified because of his responsibility in our offense.

Our poor PG play is what in part made Doc made the adjustment of having Pierce being our main ball handler to get us going, even with Rondo on the floor when he's not doing his job.

  Giving the offense over to Paul seemed to be more about getting Paul going than us going. He was struggling offensively for a while, and every time he'd hit a shot or two we'd revert back to Rondo giving Paul the ball and heading for the corner.

Which wouldn't have been a need to do so if Rondo was running the team effectively.

  No, there were games where Paul was struggling and the team was doing ok when Paul would hit a shot and they'd give him the ball the next 5 trips down. They were clearly trying to get him going.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2008, 02:57:39 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Let me draw another comparison... when Rondo's shot is off, our offense should still be able to run fairly smooth because Rondo's responsibility is to get our offense moving. During this playoffs, he's has only had a positive impact in our offense when he's scoring.  That's not good enough... that's Cassell's role. Our offense should flow positively regardless of how Rondo is shooting or not because he has the responsibility to distribute, and he should be very capable of doing it... he simply hasn't been doing it consistently.  But what I've seen as of late, is that Doc is lessening the burden quite a bit on him, especially with the emergence of the pick and roll with Pierce.

  Rondo's getting 7 assists, 4 boards, 2 steals a game with an assist/turnover ratio better than anyone who made it out of the 1st round besides Chris Paul. It's not the case that all he's doing for our offense is scoring. If the other players (like Ray, or Paul before the last few games) hit their shots our offense would be fine. During the season we were 4th in the league in fg%. Our playoff fg% would have been 19th.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2008, 03:17:15 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Again, nothing to do with his stats... I could care less on how his shot is falling or not, he simply hasn't been moving the ball well period.  It's not about Paul, KG, or Ray not shooting well, it's when Rondo starts playing like Cassell that we're in trouble, and hes been doing it quite a lot during the playoffs. He starts holding the ball, not making intelligent decisions, etc.

If you can't see it, well I guess we can't discuss any further, but can't argue about something that you're not noticing. But I'm telling you, it's very apparent to me how he hasn't been moving the ball... not the team, him in particular. Last night he couldn've had zero points and zero assists, and I'd be happy with the way he played.

As a tangent, so that you can see where I'm coming from, even though Ray Allen underperformed, I thought he had a fairly nice game, where he didn't really hurt the team because he was doing everything well except shooting.  When Rondo is not playing well, it drags our offense to the ground because it means he has stopped moving the ball, and the effects of it are magnified because of his responsibility in our offense.

Our poor PG play is what in part made Doc made the adjustment of having Pierce being our main ball handler to get us going, even with Rondo on the floor when he's not doing his job.

  Giving the offense over to Paul seemed to be more about getting Paul going than us going. He was struggling offensively for a while, and every time he'd hit a shot or two we'd revert back to Rondo giving Paul the ball and heading for the corner.

Which wouldn't have been a need to do so if Rondo was running the team effectively.

  No, there were games where Paul was struggling and the team was doing ok when Paul would hit a shot and they'd give him the ball the next 5 trips down. They were clearly trying to get him going.

All true, but again, no need to try and get someone going this way if your point guard is capable of distributing the ball properly. Of course they're trying to get Pierce going this way, but you also need to factor in Rondo's inability to run our offense... No one has said Pierce or other people in the team haven't had poor games, but those people haven't had the responsibility to run our offense in this playoffs as Rondo's had, and when our offense is running poorly, a big chunk of the blame has to go to Rondo especially when you see him pounding the ball without knowning what to do, and driving to the basket in a horrible manner, while taking ill advised shots.  Regardless of the reason why Doc incorporated this Pierce pick and roll, it doesn't change the fact that Rondo has been very inconsistent in running our offense.

Again, if you can't see all those things about how Rondo has underperformed, then this discussion is meaningless because they're quite evident to me. I can't convince you of something that you apparently haven't been paying attention to or simply didn't see. So, either put faith on me that I'm seeing Rondo's struggles moving the ball, playing Cassell-like, or I don't know, let's give up on this discussion because it can't go anywhere.  It's like trying to convince a person who doesn't know he's color blind that the grass in green because he clearly sees it differently.  Not calling you color blind, but when something is very apparent to me and you simply don't seem to see it, then it's moot to argue about it without having some sort of evidence to present... like a game recording or something, which I doubt we have and I doubt we'd go study some tapes just to see how Rondo has performed in each game during the playoffs. I can't think of a way to make you see what I am seeing.

I know I'm very correct in my assesment of Rondo this post season.  He's had some wonderful games, but just as many poor ones, and that's not good enough for someone running our offense... and by poor I mean failing to run an effective offense, not a poor shooting night, etc. Sadly, they've been almost hand in hand during this playoffs because Rondo hasn't been playing his role effectively... playing Cassell-like too often, and that's not his game.

I'd tell you this, if we start running the offense we were doing earlier in the season, when Rondo simply ran up the court and passed it to the wing, and then we incorporate Pierce's pick and roll to it, I wouldn't be as harsh on Rondo.  But his responsibility has increased substantially since then, and he has to own up to it and perform.

Let me draw another comparison... when Rondo's shot is off, our offense should still be able to run fairly smooth because Rondo's responsibility is to get our offense moving. During this playoffs, he's has only had a positive impact in our offense when he's scoring.  That's not good enough... that's Cassell's role. Our offense should flow positively regardless of how Rondo is shooting or not because he has the responsibility to distribute, and he should be very capable of doing it... he simply hasn't been doing it consistently.  But what I've seen as of late, is that Doc is lessening the burden quite a bit on him, especially with the emergence of the pick and roll with Pierce.

  Rondo's getting 7 assists, 4 boards, 2 steals a game with an assist/turnover ratio better than anyone who made it out of the 1st round besides Chris Paul. It's not the case that all he's doing for our offense is scoring. If the other players (like Ray, or Paul before the last few games) hit their shots our offense would be fine. During the season we were 4th in the league in fg%. Our playoff fg% would have been 19th.

Once again, I could care less about Rondo's stats. My complaints have nothing to do with it. As I said before, he could be getting zero points, and zero assists, but still moving the ball and running the offense effectively, and I'd be happy with him.

I wish I had a stat were I could show how many times he makes a poor decision or kills our offense, but there isn't one. I can only see him jacking up shots here and there, penetrating and taking ill adviced shots, and pounding the ball like Cassell does, only that isn't Rondo's game.

In fact, all you need to do is see how Rondo moved the ball last night and compare it to most games this playoffs, and you'll see a vast difference.

It's sad that I have to be this negative about Rondo and be the bad guy in this case because I love Rondo... but I'm a facts guy and I like to keep facts as straight as I can make them.

That's why most of the times I have problems with people on Doc's case or Cassell's case because I see many of the complaints unwarranted so I defend them for the most part, but I also think people need to be more critical of Rondo instead of turning a blind eye on him because it should be very evident that he has been underpeforming and doing an inconsistent job running our offense, and it bothers me that many here fail to see it.

My position on Rondo has been fairly the same all year, that although he has shown signs of being capable of doing it, he is not ready for the level of responsibility he has been entrusted with.  So, if you guys want to blame Doc for Rondo's struggles (though you guys don't see it), I'm all up for that because I wouldn't have given this amount of responsibility to him yet even though many here wanted it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:40:24 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2008, 03:51:23 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Again, nothing to do with his stats... I could care less on how his shot is falling or not, he simply hasn't been moving the ball well period.  It's not about Paul, KG, or Ray not shooting well, it's when Rondo starts playing like Cassell that we're in trouble, and hes been doing it quite a lot during the playoffs. He starts holding the ball, not making intelligent decisions, etc.

If you can't see it, well I guess we can't discuss any further, but can't argue about something that you're not noticing. But I'm telling you, it's very apparent to me how he hasn't been moving the ball... not the team, him in particular. Last night he couldn've had zero points and zero assists, and I'd be happy with the way he played.

As a tangent, so that you can see where I'm coming from, even though Ray Allen underperformed, I thought he had a fairly nice game, where he didn't really hurt the team because he was doing everything well except shooting.  When Rondo is not playing well, it drags our offense to the ground because it means he has stopped moving the ball, and the effects of it are magnified because of his responsibility in our offense.

Our poor PG play is what in part made Doc made the adjustment of having Pierce being our main ball handler to get us going, even with Rondo on the floor when he's not doing his job.

  Giving the offense over to Paul seemed to be more about getting Paul going than us going. He was struggling offensively for a while, and every time he'd hit a shot or two we'd revert back to Rondo giving Paul the ball and heading for the corner.

Which wouldn't have been a need to do so if Rondo was running the team effectively.

  No, there were games where Paul was struggling and the team was doing ok when Paul would hit a shot and they'd give him the ball the next 5 trips down. They were clearly trying to get him going.

All true, but again, no need to try and get someone going this way if your point guard is capable of distributing the ball properly. Of course they're trying to get Pierce going this way, but you also need to factor in Rondo's inability to run our offense... No one has said Pierce or other people in the team haven't had poor games, but those people haven't had the responsibility to run our offense in this playoffs as Rondo's had, and when our offense is running poorly, a big chunk of the blame has to go to Rondo especially when you see him pounding the ball without knowning what to do, and driving to the basket in a horrible manner, while taking ill advised shots.  Regardless of the reason why Doc incorporated this Pierce pick and roll, it doesn't change the fact that Rondo has been very inconsistent in running our offense.

Again, if you can't see all those things about how Rondo has underperformed, then this discussion is meaningless because they're quite evident to me. I can't convince you of something that you apparently haven't been paying attention to or simply didn't see. So, either put faith on me that I'm seeing Rondo's struggles moving the ball, playing Cassell-like, or I don't know, let's give up on this discussion because it can't go nowhere.  It's like trying to convince a person who doesn't know he's color blind that the grass in green because he clearly sees it differently.  Not calling you color blind, but when something is very apparent to me and you simply don't seem to see it, then it's moot to argue about it without having some sort of evidence to present... like a game recording or something, which I doubt we have and I doubt we'd go study some tapes just to see how Rondo has performed in each game during the playoffs. I can't think of a way to make you see what I am seeing.

I know I'm very correct in my assesment of Rondo this post season.  He's had some wonderful games, but just as many poor ones, and that's not good enough for someone running our offense... and by poor I mean failing to run an effective offense, not a poor shooting night, etc. Sadly, they've been almost hand in hand during this playoffs because Rondo hasn't been playing his role effectively... playing Cassell-like too often, and that's not his game.


  I'm not sure which statement is more ridiculous, your claim that Paul's offensive struggles in the playoffs were due to Rondo's poor distribution or your claim that anyone who disagrees with your assessment of the game is unable to see what's happening.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2008, 04:00:09 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Er, where did I claim that Paul's offensive struggles were due to Rondo? I said that trying to get Pierce more involved might be due to Rondo's inability to get Pierce involved... that Pierce struggles carries some individual blame in itself, but Rondo is also responsible for running our offense, and when our offense hasn't been running good enough, a big chunk of the blame has to be on him.

Let's use last night as an example. Rondo kept Ray Allen involved, Ray Allen struggled shooting all by himself... but by keeping Ray Allen involved, our whole offense ran much smoother.  There's a difference between causing one to struggle and simply involving someone in the offense.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 04:07:17 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 04:00:41 PM »

Offline Birdbrain

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You seem to be pretty knowledgeable but, I think you're being a bit too hard on Rondo.  He's averaging more assists and less turnovers than in the regular season.  He's had his poor moments but, the primary reason Paul is taking the ball over near the end of games is for him to get fouled and to prevent Rondo from getting fouled.  Of course you could nitpick his FT% shooting.  But he's developing a nice stroke so I assume he's FT% will only go up.  The sky's the limit for this kid.  He's behind Paul and Williams by a large margin but, he also does somethings that they can't do. 

Rondo - 30 - 35 min
House - 13 - 18 min
Cassell -
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Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 04:08:28 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Er, where did I claim that Paul's offensive struggles were due to Rondo? I said that trying to get Pierce more involved might be due to Rondo's inability to get Pierce involved... that Pierce struggles carries some individual blame in itself, but Rondo is also responsible for running our offense, and when our offense hasn't been running good enough, a big chunk of the blame has to be on him.

not to be a devil's advocate but in denying you said paul's sturggles are due to rondo, you said that his sturggles are due to rondo heh.  ;)

but yea, i think rondo is having an up and down post season, i just don't think the downs are as harsh as you make them out to be. I think for the most part he's been solid and helped us win games, thats all i really wanted out of a 1st year starter, and 2nd year player on a championship team.
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Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 04:13:13 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Er, where did I claim that Paul's offensive struggles were due to Rondo? I said that trying to get Pierce more involved might be due to Rondo's inability to get Pierce involved... that Pierce struggles carries some individual blame in itself, but Rondo is also responsible for running our offense, and when our offense hasn't been running good enough, a big chunk of the blame has to be on him.

not to be a devil's advocate but in denying you said paul's sturggles are due to rondo, you said that his sturggles are due to rondo heh.  ;)

but yea, i think rondo is having an up and down post season, i just don't think the downs are as harsh as you make them out to be. I think for the most part he's been solid and helped us win games, thats all i really wanted out of a 1st year starter, and year player on a championship team.

I think the sentence was simply constructed poorly, but that wasn't my intention hehe.  But let me put some perspective from where I'm coming from. I'm only being this harsh on Rondo because the level of responsibility he has been handed on our offense.  I'd be perfectly happy with his play if he wasn't as involved in our offensive system, but he is very involved and our offensive struggles are quite tied with his inconsistency running the offense.  In that sense, Rondo's poor play has to be blamed for many of it.

The other side of it, is that I'd blame Doc for putting Rondo is this position, but just the same, Rondo has to play in better control than he has.

And to put it in perspective again, I'm not that harsh on Ray Allen because his responsibility running our offense is less than Rondo's, so his struggles doesn't hurt the team much and even with Ray's shooting struggles (his main role), he's still playing well within our offensive system and making good decisions with the ball for the most part.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 04:39:03 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Er, where did I claim that Paul's offensive struggles were due to Rondo? I said that trying to get Pierce more involved might be due to Rondo's inability to get Pierce involved... that Pierce struggles carries some individual blame in itself, but Rondo is also responsible for running our offense, and when our offense hasn't been running good enough, a big chunk of the blame has to be on him.

  I said: "Giving the offense over to Paul seemed to be more about getting Paul going than us going."

  You said: "Which wouldn't have been a need to do so if Rondo was running the team effectively."

  I said: "No, there were games where Paul was struggling and the team was doing ok when Paul would hit a shot and they'd give him the ball the next 5 trips down. They were clearly trying to get him going."

  You said: "All true, but again, no need to try and get someone going this way if your point guard is capable of distributing the ball properly."

  You might not be saying that Rondo was at fault when Pierce began to struggle, but you're clearly blaming Rondo for not bringing Pierce out of his slump. Not only was Rondo not responsible for Paul's offensive struggles, but ball movement wasn't responsible, and better ball movement didn't bring him out of it. I don't think your blaming Rondo for the team's struggles is any more valid than your blaming him for Paul's play. When Sam runs the offense the ball movement's worse than with Rondo. When Paul runs the offense the ball movement is worse than with Rondo running it. House did ok vs Cleveland last night but struggled last night, and might not stand up well to the Piston's pressure.

 

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2008, 04:55:28 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Er, where did I claim that Paul's offensive struggles were due to Rondo? I said that trying to get Pierce more involved might be due to Rondo's inability to get Pierce involved... that Pierce struggles carries some individual blame in itself, but Rondo is also responsible for running our offense, and when our offense hasn't been running good enough, a big chunk of the blame has to be on him.

  I said: "Giving the offense over to Paul seemed to be more about getting Paul going than us going."

  You said: "Which wouldn't have been a need to do so if Rondo was running the team effectively."

  I said: "No, there were games where Paul was struggling and the team was doing ok when Paul would hit a shot and they'd give him the ball the next 5 trips down. They were clearly trying to get him going."

  You said: "All true, but again, no need to try and get someone going this way if your point guard is capable of distributing the ball properly."

  You might not be saying that Rondo was at fault when Pierce began to struggle, but you're clearly blaming Rondo for not bringing Pierce out of his slump. Not only was Rondo not responsible for Paul's offensive struggles, but ball movement wasn't responsible, and better ball movement didn't bring him out of it. I don't think your blaming Rondo for the team's struggles is any more valid than your blaming him for Paul's play. When Sam runs the offense the ball movement's worse than with Rondo. When Paul runs the offense the ball movement is worse than with Rondo running it. House did ok vs Cleveland last night but struggled last night, and might not stand up well to the Piston's pressure.

I misread what your intentions meant and you have to take the context of it all. If our offense is not running as it's supposed to, players will not perform as needed. Of course, there's a balance here between the struggles being due to individual reasons or the result of the system, and it's quite factual that Rondo's poor peformance running the offense didn't help matters. Not that Pierce's struggles were solely Rondo's fault, but he also didn't do much to help the cause. And it's not solely a ball movement thing, it's a decision making thing too and when Rondo has been given this high level of responsibility he better excell at both.  There's a reason why PG's like CP3 do make their teammates better because running the offense does matter and it affects performances. Does it mean that they're responsible for everyone's struggles? No, but they influence performance quite a bit, hence they also share some of the blame when people struggle when they do a poor job running the offense.

Also, you need to consider that having Pierce run the whole offense is not a decision one makes simply to get someone going, there's more to it, and the reason is Rondo's poor job running the offense. If the offense is running well, but players are struggling, you tweak things here and there, but you don't remove Rondo from his responsibilities.

"When Sam runs the offense the ball movement's worse than with Rondo." <--- Meaningless claim.

"When Paul runs the offense the ball movement is worse than with Rondo running it." <--- quite true, but the offense has been running better because Paul Pierce is being put in a better position to succeed and he's making MUCH better decisions with the ball than Rondo is. This is not purely a ball movement problem, it's making good decisions with the ball too.

"House did ok vs Cleveland last night but struggled last night, and might not stand up well to the Piston's pressure." <--- Completely agree, and that's why I'm hoping Rondo has turned a corner and keeps playing like he did last night because I loved how he played last night.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 05:23:45 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2008, 05:26:53 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I misread what your intentions meant and you have to take the context of it all. If our offense is not running as it's supposed to, players will not perform as needed. Of course, there's a balance here between the struggles being due to individual reasons or the result of the system, and it's quite factual that Rondo's poor peformance running the offense didn't help matters. Not that Pierce's struggles were solely Rondo's fault, but he also didn't do much to help the cause. And it's not solely a ball movement thing, it's a decision making thing too and when Rondo has been given this high level of responsibility he better excell at both.  There's a reason why PG's like CP3 do make their teammates better because running the offense does matter and it affects performances. Does it mean that they're responsible for everyone's struggles? No, but they influence performance quite a bit, hence they also share some of the blame when people struggle when they do a poor job running the offense.

  Rondo's been getting people open looks, especially early in the game, but they haven't always been converting. When the other players struggle it makes Rondo's job that much harder. In essence, you're blaming him for everyone's play because the offense is "his responsibility".

"When Paul runs the offense the ball movement is worse than with Rondo running it." <--- quite true, but the offense has been running better because Paul Pierce is being put in a better position to succeed and he's making MUCH better decisions with the ball than Rondo is. This is not purely a ball movement problem, it's making good decisions with the ball too.

   No way has Paul been making better decisions with the ball than Rondo. How many times has he tried to drive and done a kickout pass either to nobody or to an opponent? If Paul doesn't score it's a pretty mixed bag.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2008, 05:43:36 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan06

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I think eventually they were still trapping/pressuring Eddie and will force Doc to play Sam (especially on the road) I agree they should play simultaneously sometimes.  Eddie might as well get some SG minutes (or Sam can be the shooting guard for all I care) TA is not getting much (if any) burn this series.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2008, 05:45:53 PM »

Offline MaineBleedsGreen

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If Eddie can't bring the ball up, use Pierce or whoever else as the primary ball handler.  I think Eddie is too important to bench.

I agree Hobbs, and will add I'm only 24. I don't need a heart attack. PLEASE keep sam on the bench cheering for his team. If this requires giving him a celtics-dancers uniform, do it.

Re: Sam I Am/House
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2008, 06:51:16 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Quote
No way has Paul been making better decisions with the ball than Rondo. How many times has he tried to drive and done a kickout pass either to nobody or to an opponent? If Paul doesn't score it's a pretty mixed bag.

Him taking a good shot counts as making better decisions with the ball. He is finding people open when the defense collapses on him, something Rondo has been doing incosistently. And the results don't lie, though Rondo deserves a lot of credit for yesterday himself.

What I would like you to find out though is how many times Rondo has held the ball too long without making the defense do any work, how many times he has simply come up and jacked a shot up, and how many times he has driven to the basket and taken a bad shot with 3 people on him (especially when there are people open around him). Quite a lot too many by my estimation.

I mean, in Cleveland, House playmaking "skills" looked leagues better than Rondo, and the offensive flow was much better with him in the court... that should tell you a bit of Rondo's troubles running the offense this playoffs.

Again, a big chunk of the blame has to go to Rondo because of the level of responsibility... if the offense were running like it did earlier in the year, when his responsibility was much less then he wouldn't be taking this much blame from my part.

Let me throw a baseball analogy at you to see if you get my reasoning a bit better... let's say you're in the playoffs, but your team doesn't have a closer, what you have is decent reliever (your best reliever)... he gets put in the position to close out games in the playoffs because you don't have anyone else.  So he gives up a run here and there, even blow a save here and there. By closing standars he was terrible, but maybe for a normal reliever he actually performed like the norm... as expected.  Wouldn't you say that the player, during the playoffs, blowing a couple of saves doesn't make him terrible or part of the blame? Sure, it might not be his fault he is in that position, but regardless of why he is in that position, he needs to perform the task. And blowing the saves means that he shares a big chunk of the blame for the loses.

To me, Rondo is not ready for the level of responsibility he has been given, and I equate his level of responsibility in running our offense with the blame he should get if the offense isn't running as it should or close to it. You can blame Doc for putting Rondo in that position, and I would understand that, but regardless Rondo is there for a task and he should perform it.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 07:04:27 PM by BudweiserCeltic »