Robert Horry's Foul: Whats wrong with basketball or what used to be right?

[Who]

  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.  Shoot, reminder Larry nudging (who was it again?) out of bounds with his rear end?

Michael Cooper

I don't have a problem with a hard foul (especially in a playoff game), but it's definitely not "sportsman-like".  Ergo, it's dirty.  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.

I don't like the whole definition of "sportsman-like" (in general), I think it's silly. I think too many people (especially the media) have taken it too many extremes. Hard fouls are part of the game and should be. That's just competing. Deliberating trying to take someone out of the series is un-sportsman-like.

[winsomme]

i still dont get why the fans is supposed to make me think diffrent, but somehow its ok we did the exact same thing on the zaza foul, but thats diffrent.

ans his "history" of doing this is nash. thats it. other than that, horry was never known for being a hachet man. bowen is, but hory isn't.

plenty of guys have done stupid thing once, that doesn't mean the next time is the same thing. by that logic, horford is a hacet man for the rest of his career, he's gotten several flagrants, willams will be if he ever does it again, most of the pistons are dirty, ect, ect.

the fans reaction simply confirms that they recognized the significance of what Horry did. i also think that KG knew that he was laying Zaza out. the difference is how they did it and why they did it.

on Horry, here is what he said after the Nash foul:

"Horry said. "If I had the situation to do all over again, I would still [do it]. That's just the way I'm programmed. You go over there and foul, and you foul them hard."

by his own admission, that is how he is programmed...

[crownsy]

right programmed to foul hard in the playoffs. what does that prove, everyone agrees it was a hard foul...

your contention is that it was a hard foul specificly aimed to seriously injure david wests back.

and how did KG "do it any diffrent" exactly? he set a hard pick on a guy who didnt see it coming. same exact thing.

[Redz]

  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.  Shoot, reminder Larry nudging (who was it again?) out of bounds with his rear end?

Michael Cooper

I don't have a problem with a hard foul (especially in a playoff game), but it's definitely not "sportsman-like".  Ergo, it's dirty.  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.

I don't like the whole definition of "sportsman-like" (in general), I think it's silly. I think too many people (especially the media) have taken it too many extremes. Hard fouls are part of the game and should be. That's just competing. Deliberating trying to take someone out of the series is un-sportsman-like.

Thanks for the Cooper reminder. 

I don't have a problem with a hard foul necessarily, but a hard pick can be done cleanly (and legally) without even being cause for a whistle.  The lowering of the shoulder is not really necessary, but it does indeed send a message.  That would be the distinction between "sportsman-like" or not.  Don't see what's so silly about the term, but I respect that we all have different things we find silly.

I, for one, find this silly:

[winsomme]

right programmed to foul hard in the playoffs. what does that prove, everyone agrees it was a hard foul...

your contention is that it was a hard foul specificly aimed to seriously injure david wests back.

and how did KG "do it any diffrent" exactly? he set a hard pick on a guy who didnt see it coming. same exact thing.

he didn't lower his shoulder and lean in the way that Horry did. and he didn't hit a guy right in the spot where he had a known injury.

the other difference is that KG was laying out a guy that had been giving us hard fouls the whole series.

Horry injured a guy that torched them in game 5...

[fairweatherfan]

right programmed to foul hard in the playoffs. what does that prove, everyone agrees it was a hard foul...

your contention is that it was a hard foul specificly aimed to seriously injure david wests back.

and how did KG "do it any diffrent" exactly? he set a hard pick on a guy who didnt see it coming. same exact thing.

If KG had known Zaza had an injured shoulder or say, sternum, and had aimed his shoulder directly at that area, that makes it dirty.  Hitting a guy hard (KG, or Marvin Williams) in an illegal fashion, intentionally or not, is a hard foul; deliberately targeting a vulnerable area (Horry, or Jason Kidd intentionally throwing Pargo down by his neck) is dirty.  To me it's on a level with Reggie Evans grabbing Chris Kaman's "boys" from behind a couple years back - deliberate, outside the scope of the game, and targeted at a vulnerable part of the player's body with the intent not just of "setting a screen" or "preventing a layup", but of causing serious pain or injury.  I think that's the difference that's being argued.

[Who]

  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.  Shoot, reminder Larry nudging (who was it again?) out of bounds with his rear end?

Michael Cooper

I don't have a problem with a hard foul (especially in a playoff game), but it's definitely not "sportsman-like".  Ergo, it's dirty.  A little bit of dirt, isn't so bad though, no.

I don't like the whole definition of "sportsman-like" (in general), I think it's silly. I think too many people (especially the media) have taken it too many extremes. Hard fouls are part of the game and should be. That's just competing. Deliberating trying to take someone out of the series is un-sportsman-like.

Thanks for the Cooper reminder. 

I don't have a problem with a hard foul necessarily, but a hard pick can be done cleanly (and legally) without even being cause for a whistle.  The lowering of the shoulder is not really necessary, but it does indeed send a message.  That would be the distinction between "sportsman-like" or not.  Don't see what so silly about the term, but I respect that we all have different things we find silly.

My problem with it ... is it unsportsmanlike when you foul someone when they beat you off the dribble? Was Chris Paul being unsportsmanlike when he pushed off with his off arm twice on Bowen moments prior? Was it unsportsmanlike when Chandler slapped across Duncan's wrist's on a reach in? Was it unsportsmanlike when Perkins hit Delonte West to the floor on a driving layup?

It's foul. It's a part of the game. That's why they have 6 of them. They shouldn't be called unsportsmanlike because they're part of the sport.

A Flagrant Two where it results in an instant rejection should be referred to as unsportsmanlike because they have no place in the sport and they should be limited/stopped.

[Redz]

I guess I was comparing two specific examples of "sportsmanlike" or not (a clean pick vs one where you lower your shoulder).  I'll grant you there's lots of gray area elsewhere, but seems pretty clear cut in the case in hand.

[crownsy]

right programmed to foul hard in the playoffs. what does that prove, everyone agrees it was a hard foul...

your contention is that it was a hard foul specificly aimed to seriously injure david wests back.

and how did KG "do it any diffrent" exactly? he set a hard pick on a guy who didnt see it coming. same exact thing.

he didn't lower his shoulder and lean in the way that Horry did. and he didn't hit a guy right in the spot where he had a known injury.

the other difference is that KG was laying out a guy that had been giving us hard fouls the whole series.

Horry injured a guy that torched them in game 5...

lol kg certainly did lower his shoulder into Zaza, dead center. he leaned all the way in.

and again, your arguing semantics. its ok with you because KG is our guy and zaza ticked you off by giving hard fouls. Thats not a great argument. its along the lines of "well, yea i stole the food, but it was diffrent than when he did it. I had a reason."

Were never going to agree on this one. you see this as a dirty team specificly targeting a guy like some version of the karate kid. I see it like Who does, as a hard playoff foul.

And to whoever said the diffrence is that the spurs are precived as dirty, check out a message board about us or the pistons. We don't see our defense as dirty because it's ours, other teams hate james posey, who i love, as much as we hate bruce bowen.

its all in where your standing on these kinds of things.

[Redz]

By the way, IP, apparently you picked a good topic for discussion. TP for you.

[indeedproceed]

Im the baking soda to CelticsBlog's vinegar Redz.

i still dont get why the fans is supposed to make me think diffrent, but somehow its ok we did the exact same thing on the zaza foul, but thats diffrent.

ans his "history" of doing this is nash. thats it. other than that, horry was never known for being a hachet man. bowen is, but hory isn't.

plenty of guys have done stupid thing once, that doesn't mean the next time is the same thing. by that logic, horford is a hacet man for the rest of his career, he's gotten several flagrants, willams will be if he ever does it again, most of the pistons are dirty, ect, ect.

the fans reaction simply confirms that they recognized the significance of what Horry did. i also think that KG knew that he was laying Zaza out. the difference is how they did it and why they did it.

on Horry, here is what he said after the Nash foul:

"Horry said. "If I had the situation to do all over again, I would still [do it]. That's just the way I'm programmed. You go over there and foul, and you foul them hard."

by his own admission, that is how he is programmed...

But what does that mean to you? If you think he's saying when it counts in the playoffs if you're going to foul someone foul them hard. Send a message that you can't be pushed around and you won't go away than I wish all of our players were programmed like that.

If you think he's saying "If someone is torching us and ruining our season and I see a way to take him out I'll take him out" then thats something else.

Or if you're considering this in context as "if its an elimination game we're down three in the fourth quarter and we need to foul well screw that guy Im going to foul him and foul him hard."  Then thats something else.

Besides if Nash could've jumped any higher after that hip check to make it look worse then he would've. Marvin Williams' clothsline of Rondo was worse than both of those fouls and hardly anyone gave a crap after that...including Rondo.

[BballTim]

  I don't think that there was any need to call a play, because such opportunities happen frequently during the game. Why do you think Horry picked him and leaned into it like that?

because he wanted to foul him hard, i've never argued it wasen't a hard playoff foul.

but even if you don't think there was a play, you think pop is a dirty coach by your logic here, either that or you think horry is a menace who hatched this plan and convinced pop to sub him in to go after david west.

Either one is an opinion i think is influenced by hatred of the spurs, not the facts. It was a hard foul, it sucks the guy got hurt, but thems the breaks.

  A hard playoff foul is generally made on someone shooting or going to the hole, not on a defender backing away from the play. I don't understand your logic here. Pop's a dirty coach because of what Horry did? If so, then clearly Pop's a dirty coach, because Bowen tries to injure people all the time. Does Pop go up to Bruce and say "the next time Amare jumps, stick your foot where he's going to land..."? I doubt it, just like he probably didn't tell Horry to give West  shot to the back. That doesn't mean that Horry didn't do it. And your only evidence that my opinion is influenced by my hatred of the Spurs is that you disagree with me.

  If you want to go through life thinking that it was just a random coincidence that the person that Horry hit in the lower back was someone with a bad back, go ahead. I don't even see much of a reason to set the pick to begin with. Manu had already picked up his dribble. He wasn't going to drive past West. Horry wasn't trying to get better position for a pass, or he would have been less obvious. He just wanted to foul West. Or, apparently, he just wanted to slam into whatever Hornet was closest to him, and he never imagined that such a foul would have a negative effect on West's back.

[winsomme]

right programmed to foul hard in the playoffs. what does that prove, everyone agrees it was a hard foul...

your contention is that it was a hard foul specificly aimed to seriously injure david wests back.

and how did KG "do it any diffrent" exactly? he set a hard pick on a guy who didnt see it coming. same exact thing.

he didn't lower his shoulder and lean in the way that Horry did. and he didn't hit a guy right in the spot where he had a known injury.

the other difference is that KG was laying out a guy that had been giving us hard fouls the whole series.

Horry injured a guy that torched them in game 5...

lol kg certainly did lower his shoulder into Zaza, dead center. he leaned all the way in.

and again, your arguing semantics. its ok with you because KG is our guy and zaza ticked you off by giving hard fouls. Thats not a great argument. its along the lines of "well, yea i stole the food, but it was diffrent than when he did it. I had a reason."

Were never going to agree on this one. you see this as a dirty team specificly targeting a guy like some version of the karate kid. I see it like Who does, as a hard playoff foul.

And to whoever said the diffrence is that the spurs are precived as dirty, check out a message board about us or the pistons. We don't see our defense as dirty because it's ours, other teams hate james posey, who i love, as much as we hate bruce bowen.

its all in where your standing on these kinds of things.

you really don't see the difference in giving a guy a hard foul who has been hammering your team with hard fouls and giving a guy a hard foul because he scored a ton of points on your team?

you really don't think there is a difference between those two scenarios?

you can chalk this up to coincidence if you want to, but there was an entire stadium of people that celebrated knowing exactly what Horry had done for his team.

you acknowledge that Horry is intentionally giving hard fouls in the playoffs (he admitted as much) and now you want us to believe he had no idea who he was fouling and that he was not aware that the guy already had a bad back....

this guy has been around the block. he has already done it before and he is on a team that is known for doing this.

my biggest problem with this, like i said earlier, is not that i don't like old school basketball, but that it is not old school basketball if you don't have to be afraid of retribution.

and the Spurs don't.  they know that the Hornets won't put in one of their end of the bench players to go out and slam Parker because it would lead to a whole bunch of suspensions etc...

what happened is not really old school ball because if it were, Tony Parker would be waiting for the payback and Horry would not be doing it in the first place because the payback is usually worse than the initial hit...

[RebusRankin]

Dirty play. He didn't set a pick, he nailed him in the back.

[potsie023]

there's no way it was dirty. if you're robert horry, and david west is running towards you, you're going to lean into it a little so that he doesn't just mow you down. in my experiences playing basketball, that's just what you do. he did not have time to think to himself, oh i better hit him in between the 3rd and 4th vertebrae so he re-pinches that nerve of his. even if he was TRYING he couldn't have done that. no way.