Is it really Doc's fault?

[Who]

You didn't post a game plan.  "Get into offense quickly, attack the rim and run when you can": that's not a game plan, that's a basic group of concepts discussed in pretty much every basketball game ever played.  Let me give a more obvious example of your comments: Get uncontested layups.

What you stated, other than the "first pass..." was just a bunch of generalities, or 'guidelines' as you referred to them.  Battle plans don't go "shoot first, kill the enemy, take territory", they deal with the "How" of doing so.  That's the same with game plans in sports.  You're confusing basics with strategies and tactics.

I completely disagree. I told the "how" of how the Celtics offense.

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

Most of the parts on your game plan where covered in mine already. Like using Rondo's quickness. I said his prime value was his penetration. I said he looks to press the fastbreak whenever on. I said he looks to get us into our offense quickly when the break isn't on. Then his final value is his jump shot which he knocks down a decent clip over the season.

[winsomme]

The 'here is what they did in the regular season and it worked then' argument doesn't work in the playoffs. 


What they did then isn't working.  Boston has gone over 90 points just once. 


The playoffs is as much about making adjustments to your game plan as having better talent. 


The Celtics are not adjusting.  They are just hoping that they somehow just overcome the issues that are having. 

agreed on adjustments.

but sometimes the adjustment is correcting poor execution.

didn't those offensive sets that torched CLE in game 5 look familiar to you from the regular season...?

[winsomme]

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

right on the money.

getting into the sets as fast as possible is an integral part of the Cs offensive game plan.

[Redz]

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

right on the money.

getting into the sets as fast as possible is an integral part of the Cs offensive game plan.

It seemed to me that that sort of thing was there  - A LOT  - at that the beginning of the game and they couldn't take advantage of it.  Cleveland was out of sorts and the Celts did nothing with it.

[winsomme]

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

right on the money.

getting into the sets as fast as possible is an integral part of the Cs offensive game plan.

It seemed to me that that sort of thing was there  - A LOT  - at that the beginning of the game and they couldn't take advantage of it.  Cleveland was out of sorts and the Celts did nothing with it.

i missed most of the 1st Q, but from what i have gathered they did have CLEs defense off balance. at a certain point you have to knock down the shots.

also maybe not enough commitment to the penetration....

[Who]

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

right on the money.

getting into the sets as fast as possible is an integral part of the Cs offensive game plan.

It seemed to me that that sort of thing was there  - A LOT  - at that the beginning of the game and they couldn't take advantage of it.  Cleveland was out of sorts and the Celts did nothing with it.

Yep, I think so too, the Celtics didn't take good advantage of that.

Problem was they never created any seperation. They C's played great D forcing the Cavs to shoot 32% and then didn't follow through. Either by losing the rebound, hacking, or giving the ball right back to them on a turnover.

Those silly turnovers (9 turnovers) hurt the team. The team lost 10 points off those turnovers plus those 9 opportunities to score the ball themselves. Add in the offensive rebounds that they conceded, the Cavs had 10 offensive rebounds in the first half. I don't know how many second chance points they got out of that but you'd think they'd have gotten around 10 or more. Add an extra 11 points off FTs.


Celtics were something like 14-27 from the field until they missed 10 straight shots letting the Cavs go on a 17-2 run over the last 6 minutes of the half. They also had 10 assists on those 14 made shots.

Didn't make enough use of their easy baskets when they had it, or enough use of their defensive pressure.

[Roy Hobbs]

The 'here is what they did in the regular season and it worked then' argument doesn't work in the playoffs. 


What they did then isn't working.  Boston has gone over 90 points just once. 


The playoffs is as much about making adjustments to your game plan as having better talent. 


The Celtics are not adjusting.  They are just hoping that they somehow just overcome the issues that are having. 

agreed on adjustments.

but sometimes the adjustment is correcting poor execution.

... by sitting down the players who are being ineffective, and bringing in new ones.

OR

... by tweaking the offense slightly to correct whatever it is that is impeding execution.

You need to do one or the other.  In many instances, Doc does neither. 

If one of his moves pays dividends, Doc's fine (like inserting BBD into the game in Game 5.)  If, however, Doc's odd tinkering backfires, he has no capability of recognizing that and reassessing his "strategy" (such that it is). 

[wdleehi]

The 'here is what they did in the regular season and it worked then' argument doesn't work in the playoffs. 


What they did then isn't working.  Boston has gone over 90 points just once. 


The playoffs is as much about making adjustments to your game plan as having better talent. 


The Celtics are not adjusting.  They are just hoping that they somehow just overcome the issues that are having. 

agreed on adjustments.

but sometimes the adjustment is correcting poor execution.

didn't those offensive sets that torched CLE in game 5 look familiar to you from the regular season...?

Well, they are going into game 7 now. 


About time for Doc to adjust the poor execution. 

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Here is a good example of how this IS Doc's fault.  With regard to the Davis v. Powe situation, Doc said, according to projo:

" Davis came in late in the first quarter and hit the boards hard, but his fouling hurt the Celts’ big-men rotation. “It’s like a relief pitcher with those two. You ride the hot hand,” said Rivers. “When one gets going, you hope they get going for two, three, four games. It’s Baby’s turn now.”"

(http://www.projo.com/celtics/content/sp_bkn_celticsjournal17_05-17-08_9IA64J7_v16.3a9d813.html)

Riding the hot hand?  Is this is the 1980s?  Remember Bill James, Moneyball, and the *new* way the Red Sox run their team.  Old way -- 0 championships.  New way -- 2 championships. 

If Doc coached the Red Sox he probably never would have let Okajima pitch the 8th inning last year since he is "supposed" to be a lefty specialist and he never would have let Javy Lopez pitch to righties even though he gets right handed batters out at a higher rate than left handed batters.

See, when you use *data* and longitudinal evidence, like the whole regular season, to make your decisions, you don't end up making manic substitutions in the playoffs. . .

[winsomme]

The 'here is what they did in the regular season and it worked then' argument doesn't work in the playoffs. 


What they did then isn't working.  Boston has gone over 90 points just once. 


The playoffs is as much about making adjustments to your game plan as having better talent. 


The Celtics are not adjusting.  They are just hoping that they somehow just overcome the issues that are having. 

agreed on adjustments.

but sometimes the adjustment is correcting poor execution.

... by sitting down the players who are being ineffective, and bringing in new ones.

OR

... by tweaking the offense slightly to correct whatever it is that is impeding execution.

You need to do one or the other.  In many instances, Doc does neither. 

If one of his moves pays dividends, Doc's fine (like inserting BBD into the game in Game 5.)  If, however, Doc's odd tinkering backfires, he has no capability of recognizing that and reassessing his "strategy" (such that it is). 

well for me, i think he has the right personnel going with House, Posey, BBD and PJ off the bench(maybe Powe early to see if he can get a couple of quick buckets in the first half)...i'm not sure what else to have him do personnel-wise...

as for tweaking, i agree that he needs to do better to get the team to play the way that we all know they are capable of......i don't think that requires any major game plan adjustments, though...

the biggest adjustment i saw in this series was running more high pick and rolls with Rondo and KG in game 5...


personally i would love to see Rondo and KG get that back door alley oop play going that Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler run.

i think CLE is ripe for that with the way their big men often over rotate to penetration and ball movement......they've tries it a couple of times and it was there, but the timing was off..

[winsomme]

Here is a good example of how this IS Doc's fault.  With regard to the Davis v. Powe situation, Doc said, according to projo:

" Davis came in late in the first quarter and hit the boards hard, but his fouling hurt the Celts’ big-men rotation. “It’s like a relief pitcher with those two. You ride the hot hand,” said Rivers. “When one gets going, you hope they get going for two, three, four games. It’s Baby’s turn now.”"

(http://www.projo.com/celtics/content/sp_bkn_celticsjournal17_05-17-08_9IA64J7_v16.3a9d813.html)

Riding the hot hand?  Is this is the 1980s?  Remember Bill James, Moneyball, and the *new* way the Red Sox run their team.  Old way -- 0 championships.  New way -- 2 championships. 

If Doc coached the Red Sox he probably never would have let Okajima pitch the 8th inning last year since he is "supposed" to be a lefty specialist and he never would have let Javy Lopez pitch to righties even though he gets right handed batters out at a higher rate than left handed batters.

See, when you use *data* and longitudinal evidence, like the whole regular season, to make your decisions, you don't end up making manic substitutions in the playoffs. . .

i think there is a pretty clear size problem for Powe in this series with the CLEs bigs being so big.

that being said, i think Powe is really good at coming in and stealing a couple of quick buckets.....it's a tough call on those two guys.

[Scintan]

I completely disagree. I told the "how" of how the Celtics offense.

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

Most of the parts on your game plan where covered in mine already. Like using Rondo's quickness. I said his prime value was his penetration. I said he looks to press the fastbreak whenever on. I said he looks to get us into our offense quickly when the break isn't on. Then his final value is his jump shot which he knocks down a decent clip over the season.

Are you seriously trying to pretend that "drive to the basket" is a game plan?

I broke down aspects of the game plan, and explained how Cleveland has countered it.  Rather than respond to that, you go back to this?

Rondo can't drive because Cleveland isn't letting him.  Pierce can't get  to the cup because Cleveland's doubling him out high or shading him with a second man out top.  Garnett can't get room because he's in that same ring of defenders that Pierce is caught in.  Allen can't get free because Cleveland is sagging off of Perkins and Rondo.

Now....  That's not execution.  That's game plan.  Hubie gets it.  Heinsohn gets it.  LeBron gets it.  You can keep defending Doc to the bitter end, but that's what it's going to be if he doesn't change what the team is doing to counter what the opposing coach is doing.  The only question will be whether it happens in game 7 at home or against Detroit.  Mike Brown is laying down a beating of Rivers.

[Roy Hobbs]

well for me, i think he has the right personnel going with House, Posey, BBD and PJ off the bench(maybe Powe early to see if he can get a couple of quick buckets in the first half)...i'm not sure what else to have him do personnel-wise...

Doc was *way* too slow to insert Eddie House into the playoff rotation.  He watched Sam struggle for much of the past two weeks without making any sort of adjustment.  He rode BBD *much* too long last night.  He's dropped Powe from the rotation completely, despite him being our most consistent bench big man all year long.  He's continued to play Ray Allen as many minutes as any player on the team, despite Ray's clear struggles.  He hasn't tried moving Paul to the off-guard at all this series, which would allow us to go "big" and insert Posey alongside Pierce at SF, while still keeping two big men in there.

If your personnel on the floor isn't getting things done, make changes.  It's just that simple.

[winsomme]

well for me, i think he has the right personnel going with House, Posey, BBD and PJ off the bench(maybe Powe early to see if he can get a couple of quick buckets in the first half)...i'm not sure what else to have him do personnel-wise...

Doc was *way* too slow to insert Eddie House into the playoff rotation.  He watched Sam struggle for much of the past two weeks without making any sort of adjustment.  He rode BBD *much* too long last night.  He's dropped Powe from the rotation completely, despite him being our most consistent bench big man all year long.  He's continued to play Ray Allen as many minutes as any player on the team, despite Ray's clear struggles.  He hasn't tried moving Paul to the off-guard at all this series, which would allow us to go "big" and insert Posey alongside Pierce at SF, while still keeping two big men in there.

If your personnel on the floor isn't getting things done, make changes.  It's just that simple.

agreed on the switch to House...

[winsomme]

I completely disagree. I told the "how" of how the Celtics offense.

There was a play last night, it was my favourite play of the game, Eddie House dribbled the ball upcourt, made the first pass at the 19 second point to Ray Allen on the right wing, Ray immediately makes an entry pass to KG in the right post, KG worked the post got a bucket. That's our offense when things are working well when we go to KG on the block.

My other post - First pass in the offense at 18-19 second mark. Check. Good ball movement, check. Estbalish KG in the post, check. Good shot, basket.

Most of the parts on your game plan where covered in mine already. Like using Rondo's quickness. I said his prime value was his penetration. I said he looks to press the fastbreak whenever on. I said he looks to get us into our offense quickly when the break isn't on. Then his final value is his jump shot which he knocks down a decent clip over the season.

i think that the laboratory focus for how to break CLEs defense is the third Q of game 5.

they didn't do anything especially different in game 6 than they did in game 5 and we were totally able to break down their D in game 5. so why would we totally revise a game plan at this point when we have seen it work against THIS defense.

in that 3rd Q of game 5, the Cs were able to break CLEs trapping with their bigs (like Varejao) by better spacing on the wings and better execution of the pick and roll. not revising the game plan.

they were able to better take advantage of their bigs shading off our second big (either Perk or BBD or PJ)  by breaking that intial trap and looking for that open big. that is how BBD was able to get some of his buckets. not by revising the game plan.

they were able to get better looks for the wings by pushing quickly into their sets (like you are saying) which allows them the time on  the shot clock to really get good ball movement going that gets CLEs very reactive defense out of position which in turn gets good looks for a guy like Ray or more open lanes to the basket for a guy like Pierce. not by revising the game plan.

we have already seen the offense work in this series....