Is it really Doc's fault?

[winsomme]

as for the question of the design of the offense, as could be seen in the third quarter of game 5, when the offense is executed properly, the Cs get a ton of easy buckets....

[Who]

This is the most important part. I believe if they execute the game plan they'll win. You do not.

Do I believe the game plan is perfect? No, I do not
Do I believe the game plan is excellent? No
Do I believe the game plan is very good? Eh ...
Do I believe the game plan is more than good enough to beat this team? Yes absolutely

There isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind that if the player's play the way they've played all season they can win this series and could have won this series convincingly if they'd been enacting it well throughout.

The game plan is not flawed enough to make us lose this series. It's nowhere close to being that.

Do I believe the game plan is good enough to win a title? Eh ... no, not really. It's possible but the margin of error is too small for me to favour it happening.

All the evidence is proving you wrong. 

The evidence isn't proving me wrong ... for it to prove me wrong the Celtics would have to execute our game plan well and lose this series. They have not done that.

I can't be proven wrong until they do that. It can be argued I'm wrong (and if there's a good argument I could be convinced) but it cannot be proven until they execute well for a series.

[winsomme]

This is the most important part. I believe if they execute the game plan they'll win. You do not.

Do I believe the game plan is perfect? No, I do not
Do I believe the game plan is excellent? No
Do I believe the game plan is very good? Eh ...
Do I believe the game plan is more than good enough to beat this team? Yes absolutely

There isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind that if the player's play the way they've played all season they can win this series and could have won this series convincingly if they'd been enacting it well throughout.

The game plan is not flawed enough to make us lose this series. It's nowhere close to being that.

Do I believe the game plan is good enough to win a title? Eh ... no, not really. It's possible but the margin of error is too small for me to favour it happening.

All the evidence is proving you wrong. 

The evidence isn't proving me wrong ... for it to prove me wrong the Celtics would have to execute our game plan well and lose this series. They have not done that.

I can't be proven wrong until they do that. It can be argued I'm wrong (and if there's a good argument I could be convinced) but it cannot be proven until they execute well for a series.

TP.

agree 100%. execution has not been good. when the team executes like they did in the third Q of game 5 they are very difficult to stop. they also rebound better when the excute better because the players are in better position to block out and grab boards.

[Scintan]

The evidence isn't proving me wrong ... for it to prove me wrong the Celtics would have to execute our game plan well and lose this series. They have not done that.

I can't be proven wrong until they do that. It can be argued I'm wrong (and if there's a good argument I could be convinced) but it cannot be proven until they execute well for a series.

I'm sorry, but this assertion is patently false.  However, rather than delve further into it, I'll just re-ask my question:

What is Bostons' offensive game plan?

[Who]

Ok, let's try a different angle.

Your claim is that the game plan has been fine and the execution has been the problem, so let's start with the basics.  What has been the offensive game plan for Boston?

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

[winsomme]

as for the question of the design of the offense, as could be seen in the third quarter of game 5, when the offense is executed properly, the Cs get a ton of easy buckets....

so in the third q of game 5, just as an example of what happens when execution is good, the Cs shot 75% from the field and outrebounded the Cavs 12-10....

that seems like evidence that when executing the offense (and defense for that matter), we outrebound and score more points..

[Who]

but 69 points in a playoff is proof that there's a problem. 

I completely agree that there's a problem. It's the player's bad execution offensively.

as for the question of the design of the offense, as could be seen in the third quarter of game 5, when the offense is executed properly, the Cs get a ton of easy buckets....

Completely agree. Like they did during the regular season and at times during the playoffs when they've attacked with intelligence in executing their game plan.

[winsomme]

but 69 points in a playoff is proof that there's a problem. 

I completely agree that there's a problem. It's the player's bad execution offensively.

as for the question of the design of the offense, as could be seen in the third quarter of game 5, when the offense is executed properly, the Cs get a ton of easy buckets....

Completely agree. Like they did during the regular season and at times during the playoffs when they've attacked with intelligence in executing their game plan.

yeah, that is the offense that we are used to seeing and that is the game plan when executed properly....

[Scintan]

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

Ok, this is NOT a game plan, which you seem to realize as you later call them guidelines.  Perhaps that's the problem, because you are conflating the two. 

Boston's offensive game plan starts by having Rondo bring up the ball and initiate the offense.  The idea is for him to pressure the defense with his speed with the ball.  That's where Boston's game plan starts.  You keep ignoring that.

Problem with this part of the game plan this series:
- Cleveland is playing off of Rondo, which is negating his best asset, his quickness.

Boston's game plan also involves a high pick and roll with Pierce, and playing a quasi-post game with Garnett getting the ball in the high post.

Problem with this part of the game plan this series:
- Cleveland is defending Boston high and all but ignoring the low blocks.  This is cutting off Pierce's ability to drive and keeping Garnett from getting free.  It's why Pierce's shots are seemingly forced so often, and why Garnett's getting almost nothing but jump shots from the high key out.

More of Boston's game plan is to have Ray Allen available off the pick and roll if it's defended, so that he can stick the jumper.

Problem with this part of the plan this series:
- Cleveland, by sagging off of Rondo (and Perkins as noted below), is able to keep 2 men involved with defending Allen at almost all times.  This is preventing him from getting open looks at the basket.

Boston's game plan is for Perkins to be an essential non-factor in the offensive sets, when it comes to threatening the basket.  This has resulted in Perkins taking a total of 22 shots in 6 games, 8 of them in one game (That's right, he's getting fewer than 3 shots per game in the other 5 contests, and they obviously aren't all from the offensive flow).  That lack of use allows Cleveland to all but ignore him as well.  In essence, Boston's current game plan is forcing Boston into playing 3-on-5 basketball against one of the better defensive teams in the NBA.  It's a recipe for failure, particularly on the road where lesser shooters don't hit for as high a percentage.

Execution isn't the problem, although there is clearly plenty of improvement to be had in that area.  A poor game plan with insufficient adjustment is the problem.  Mike Brown is killing Rivers, and thats' kept Cleveland in the series.

[Who]

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

Ok, this is NOT a game plan, which you seem to realize as you later call them guidelines.  Perhaps that's the problem, because you are conflating the two. 

Semantics

The above is a game plan.

There is an ebb and flow to a basketball game that has to be accounted for which you completely ignored in the rest of your post.

Otherwise you have a streetball game. You have to have that understanding of what makes your team strong and how you create easy baskets.

The quality parts of the rest of your post where already covered in mine including the part you say I ignored on Rondo. Overall I disagree with your take, you leave far too much out, it's too rigid and easy to stop and that isn't how this basketball team has played in the first 90 games of the season. It's also not how they've played in the postseason but the results are similar.

[winsomme]

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

agreed that this is the game plan and when executed properly, the Cavs have a very difficult time stopping it.

the motion offense has been the backbone of this offense all season and as SEEN in game 5, when executed properly we get very high percentage shots or at the very least open looks.

Rondo brings the ball up, but does not always initiate the offense.

often the ball is given to Pierce who initiates the offense from the wing and starts the motion via screens set by KG and Perk.

Perk actually IS factored into the schemes as he is often left by his man attempting to double the penetration or to run our shooters off of open threes. that leaves him open for rebounds and/or high percentage shots.

Big Baby served the same function in game 5 and that is why (with his ability to clear space) he (by design) was able to get some key buckets and rebounds in that game.

when the spacing is proper, as we saw in game 5, this also creates lots more space for Pierce to penetrate and either finish, draw a foul or kick to an open shooter.

also adding House to the rotation that gives one more shooter to keep track of for those kickouts.

Rondo is the best player at breaking down CLEs defense, so when he is taking care of the ball (which he struggled with in game 6), it is very important to have him on the floor. when he can force CLEs defense to react to his penetration they simply do not have enough players in the court to cover all of our scoring options.

when he was executing the high pick and roll with KG in the third quarter of game 5, the Cs were able to neutralize the main effective strategy of the Cavs defense - trapping with their bigs at the top of the key. when you bust that trap, the Cavs players have to scramble to rotate to open players and there simply is not enough of them at that point.

but when you are sloppy with dealing with that trap (as they were in game 6), it becomes very difficult to run the offense as designed. players end up out of position. the shot clock dwindles. and the team ends up with a bad shot and no rebound.

it also puts them behind in getting back into good defensive position, and leaves them susceptible to offense rebounds by CLE because players do not get blocked out.

it really is a domino effect when the execution is poor. and losing the rebounding battle is a downstream effect of that.

[Scintan]

Semantics

The above is a game plan.

There is an ebb and flow to a basketball game that has to be accounted for which you completely ignored in the rest of your post. Thank goodness you're not in Doc's shoes.

Otherwise you have a streetball game. You have to have that understanding of what makes your team strong and how you create easy baskets.

The quality parts of the rest of your post where already covered in mine including the part you say I ignored on Rondo. Overall I disagree with your take, you leave far too much out, it's too rigid and easy to stop and that isn't how this basketball team has played in the first 90 games of the season. It's also not how they've played in the postseason but the results are similar.

It's not semantics at all.  What you offered was not a game plan.  Now, if you want to start with the stupid attacks "Thank goodness you're not in Doc's shoes", you know from experience that I am more than capable of holding my own in that department.  However, if you'd like to hold a discussion on this matter, stick to relevant points.  You didn't post a game plan.  "Get into offense quickly, attack the rim and run when you can": that's not a game plan, that's a basic group of concepts discussed in pretty much every basketball game ever played.  Let me give a more obvious example of your comments: Get uncontested layups.

What you stated, other than the "first pass..." was just a bunch of generalities, or 'guidelines' as you referred to them.  Battle plans don't go "shoot first, kill the enemy, take territory", they deal with the "How" of doing so.  That's the same with game plans in sports.  You're confusing basics with strategies and tactics.

[Who]

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

agreed that this is the game plan and when executed properly, the Cavs have a very difficult time stopping it.

the motion offense has been the backbone of this offense all season and as SEEN in game 5, when executed properly we get very high percentage shots.

Rondo brings the ball up, but does not always initiate the offense.

often the ball is given to Pierce who initiates the offense from the wing and starts the motion via screens set by KG and Perk.

Perk actually IS factored into the schemes as he is often left by his man attempting to double the penetration or to run our shooters off of open threes. that leaves him open for rebounds and/or high percentage shots.

Big Baby served the same function in game 5 and that is why (with his ability to clear space) he (by design) was able to get some key buckets and rebounds in that game.

when the spacing is proper, as we saw in game 5, this also creates lots more space for Pierce to penetrate and either finish, draw a foul or kick to an open shooter.

also adding House to the rotation that gives one more shooter to keep track of for those kickouts.

Rondo is the best player at breaking down CLEs defense, so when he is taking care of the ball (which he struggled with in game 6), it is very important to have him on the floor. when he can force CLEs defense to react to his penetration they simply do not have enough players in the court to cover all of our scoring options.

when he was executing the high pick and roll with KG in the third quarter of game 5, the Cs were able to neutralize the main effective strategy of the Cavs defense - trapping with their bigs at the top of the key. when you bust that trap, the Cavs players have to scramble to rotate to open players and there simply is not enough of them at that point.

but when you are sloppy with dealing with that trap (as they were in game 6), it becomes very difficult to run the offense as designed. players end up out of position. the shot clock dwindles. and the team ends up with a bad shot and no rebound.

it also puts them behind in getting back into good defensive position, and leaves them susceptible to offense rebounds by CLE because players do not get blocked out.

it really is a domino effect when the execution is poor. and losing the rebounding battle is a downstream effect of that.

I agree with everything in your post. Good description. That's how the team plays offense.

[wdleehi]

The 'here is what they did in the regular season and it worked then' argument doesn't work in the playoffs. 


What they did then isn't working.  Boston has gone over 90 points just once. 


The playoffs is as much about making adjustments to your game plan as having better talent. 


The Celtics are not adjusting.  They are just hoping that they somehow just overcome the issues that are having. 

[winsomme]

What they've been doing throughout the season prior to the playoffs.

(1) Player movement and Ball movement. It all starts there.

(2) They like to get into their offense quickly. That means the first pass around the 18-19 second mark.

(3) Attack the rim throughout and get to the FT line at a decent clip.

(4) Look to run when the opportunity presents, regularly after good defense from a turnover or outlet after the rebound.

All of those four things have been, at best, inconsistent throughout the playoffs. There have been large chunks of games where they've done a vanishing act. Can't execute the offense without them.

After those guidelines. Pierce and KG are the top two offensive options. Doc likes to get KG the ball in 5 different spots, wants KG to spend part of his time establishing a post presence down low, then some high post action to get cutting and passing going. Pierce on the midpost, odd curl screen, let him create off the dribble. Ray Allen is the third option and primarily treated as a catch and shoot player. Rondo is the fourth, generally takes guys off the dribble to make plays, others are set shots created by his teammates. After that use the supporting cast to space the floor. Feel free to let it fly from downtown as long as it's a good shot and you don't take so many that you stop attacking the hoop. Other players just hit the open shots that you recieve. Big men set some picks off the ball and screens on the ball.

Along those lines

agreed that this is the game plan and when executed properly, the Cavs have a very difficult time stopping it.

the motion offense has been the backbone of this offense all season and as SEEN in game 5, when executed properly we get very high percentage shots.

Rondo brings the ball up, but does not always initiate the offense.

often the ball is given to Pierce who initiates the offense from the wing and starts the motion via screens set by KG and Perk.

Perk actually IS factored into the schemes as he is often left by his man attempting to double the penetration or to run our shooters off of open threes. that leaves him open for rebounds and/or high percentage shots.

Big Baby served the same function in game 5 and that is why (with his ability to clear space) he (by design) was able to get some key buckets and rebounds in that game.

when the spacing is proper, as we saw in game 5, this also creates lots more space for Pierce to penetrate and either finish, draw a foul or kick to an open shooter.

also adding House to the rotation that gives one more shooter to keep track of for those kickouts.

Rondo is the best player at breaking down CLEs defense, so when he is taking care of the ball (which he struggled with in game 6), it is very important to have him on the floor. when he can force CLEs defense to react to his penetration they simply do not have enough players in the court to cover all of our scoring options.

when he was executing the high pick and roll with KG in the third quarter of game 5, the Cs were able to neutralize the main effective strategy of the Cavs defense - trapping with their bigs at the top of the key. when you bust that trap, the Cavs players have to scramble to rotate to open players and there simply is not enough of them at that point.

but when you are sloppy with dealing with that trap (as they were in game 6), it becomes very difficult to run the offense as designed. players end up out of position. the shot clock dwindles. and the team ends up with a bad shot and no rebound.

it also puts them behind in getting back into good defensive position, and leaves them susceptible to offense rebounds by CLE because players do not get blocked out.

it really is a domino effect when the execution is poor. and losing the rebounding battle is a downstream effect of that.

I agree with everything in your post. Good description. That's how the team plays offense.

i know that you are probably not as big a Doc supporter as i am, and i actually think that Doc has to do a better job of keeping the team from devolving into these "Hero Shots" that we are hearing alot about.

and poor execution (with not bringing the ball up quickly enough being a part of that) definitely contributes to ending possessions with these types of shots.

Doc certainly is not off the hook even though the game plan is solid. getting a team to run things the way they should is definitely part of Doc's responsibility.

and like you said, part of the game plan is definitely to bring the ball up quickly so that they can get into their sets with more time left on the shot clock.

the motion offense often requires more time than other offenses because it relies on more people potentially touching the ball with the increased focus on ball movement.

whereas with CLEs offense, they do not require the same insistence on bringing the ball up quickly and actually like to SLOW the play down.

it is clearly part of the Cs game plan to bring the ball up quickly to get into their sets with as much time on the shot clock as possible....