Is it really Doc's fault?

[Scintan]

well for me, i think he has the right personnel going with House, Posey, BBD and PJ off the bench(maybe Powe early to see if he can get a couple of quick buckets in the first half)...i'm not sure what else to have him do personnel-wise...

Doc was *way* too slow to insert Eddie House into the playoff rotation.  He watched Sam struggle for much of the past two weeks without making any sort of adjustment.  He rode BBD *much* too long last night.  He's dropped Powe from the rotation completely, despite him being our most consistent bench big man all year long.  He's continued to play Ray Allen as many minutes as any player on the team, despite Ray's clear struggles.  He hasn't tried moving Paul to the off-guard at all this series, which would allow us to go "big" and insert Posey alongside Pierce at SF, while still keeping two big men in there.

If your personnel on the floor isn't getting things done, make changes.  It's just that simple.

Some people just refuse to accept that Mike Brown has made adjustments to deal with the Celtics game plan.  They think that Pierce is suddenly going to sprout wings and just fly over the defense or something.  Of course, they think that something working for one quarter of a game and failing for about 20 quarters in the series is some sort of proof that execution is the problem.

Until people start to understand what execution is, they are never going to grasp the problems.

[vinnie]

Mike Brown lost his backup point guard and still outcoached Doc last night?  Amazing how bad Doc is. Just amazing. You notice how quickly brown will take a Verijao out of the game and replace him with Wallace or vice-versa if one is not producing.  How many minutes did Damon Jones play last night after stinking up the joint in his first stint -- not many.  That is the problem with Doc.  He can't adjust.  It took 12 games for Eddie House to see any time in the playoffs.  How many more games will it take him to figure Powe needs to get off the pine?  Hopefully we will have more than one game to find out.

[dmopower]

AHH YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYYESYESYYESYESYES!!!!ESESYEYEYESYESYESSYESYESS

[nickagneta]

What I don't get with this entire Doc argument is the hypocrisy of the Doc detractors.

Before the playoffs started Doc detractors were saying that Doc had to stop using all his players and to go with a set rotation. When he did using the starters and Powe, Brown, Cassell, and Posey. A great many Doc haters were then calling for Tony Allen and Eddie House to be used.

So then Doc starts using House and Baby and people are wondering why Doc went with Baby over Brown and Powe and why Tony Allen isn't being used because Pierce isn't driving to the hole.

So which is it Doc bashers, a set rotation or use everyone? You seem to want both. And I know a ton of you are now going to come out and deny this but Doc's supporters can probably point to 10 or more threads where you all call for conflicting actions to be taken.

Then as each player has good or bad games suddenly Doc needs to make adjustments to fix these things when in fact none of the players except KG have played consistent good basketball. The real adjustment that needs to be made is with the players performances.

Adjustments have been made and yet Doc detractors have ignored them. Posey was being used on LeBron quite a bit but then LeBron figured him out and began torching him. Doc now has Pierce almost exclusively guarding LeBron.

Another was that early on Doc was going with the offensive sets going first to the wings and then into the post trying to work the inside out rotation to the backside for ashot if the post doesn't hand off to the cutter or take the low post move. Cleveland ended up doubling the low post and causing havoc. Doc then switched a great deal of his offense to the high post pick and roll with Rondo creating off the drive. The same thing was done in the last game but Rondo and House started their moves towards the pick too early and was causing turnovers with fouls on the picker. Also Rondo made a ton of poor decisions in the initiation of the offense that he didn't have in game 5.

There's also the fact that he did end end breaking his rotation when the players on the bench weren't producing. Hence we see House and Baby. You'll all say that he took to long to do it but if the Celtics advance and House and Baby play well then the adjustment with the rotation worked.

Do I like the fact that Doc will put too many subs on the floor at one time, yes. But it did pay off a couple of times.

Do I like the fact that the team has come out flat quite a bit, yes. Doc should have them better emotionally prepared. But the players need to take a great deal of responsibility for that as well.

I also hate when Doc plays his starters the whole first and thrid quarters and then in tight games has to rest his starters during crucial times of the game.

Fact is Doc is not perfect, but neither are the players. This thread asks if it is really Doc's fault. Yes it is.

But, it's Doc's fault, the player's fault, the ref's fault, and the fault of the Cavs by showing up and playing good defense.

[Roy Hobbs]

What I don't get with this entire Doc argument is the hypocrisy of the Doc detractors.

Before the playoffs started Doc detractors were saying that Doc had to stop using all his players and to go with a set rotation. When he did using the starters and Powe, Brown, Cassell, and Posey. A great many Doc haters were then calling for Tony Allen and Eddie House to be used.

I don't think anybody was saying you stick with a player forever when he's playing terrible, ala Sam Cassell.  Many -- including myself -- were not happy that Eddie's role was eliminated completely.  More people are unhappy now that Powe has been dropped from the rotation for a largely under-performing BBD (although he had one decent game).

Just because people don't want 12 guys getting run in a game doesn't mean they want Doc playing ineffective players.

When you can list several things that you dislike about Doc, which he repeats game after game, I find it hard to label him a good coach.  No, he doesn't deserve 100% of the blame, or even 50% of it, but he's also not putting this team in the best position to succeed, and that's what a coach is supposed to do.  All coaches make mistakes, but Doc makes more than his share, and he makes the same ones repeatedly.

[Scintan]

Well, Doc changed his rotations.  He changed the entire way the offense was being run.  He turned Pierce into a pick and roll point guard and put Garnett down on the low blocks instead of letting him drift up high.

I'd say that's a pretty clear sign that he realized execution was not the issue.  It's just too bad that it took him until game 7 to make some pretty obvious adjustments.

[winsomme]

Great game for Paul. Great game for Doc.

next stop....ECF....

[nickagneta]

What I don't get with this entire Doc argument is the hypocrisy of the Doc detractors.

Before the playoffs started Doc detractors were saying that Doc had to stop using all his players and to go with a set rotation. When he did using the starters and Powe, Brown, Cassell, and Posey. A great many Doc haters were then calling for Tony Allen and Eddie House to be used.

I don't think anybody was saying you stick with a player forever when he's playing terrible, ala Sam Cassell.  Many -- including myself -- were not happy that Eddie's role was eliminated completely.  More people are unhappy now that Powe has been dropped from the rotation for a largely under-performing BBD (although he had one decent game).

Just because people don't want 12 guys getting run in a game doesn't mean they want Doc playing ineffective players.

When you can list several things that you dislike about Doc, which he repeats game after game, I find it hard to label him a good coach.  No, he doesn't deserve 100% of the blame, or even 50% of it, but he's also not putting this team in the best position to succeed, and that's what a coach is supposed to do.  All coaches make mistakes, but Doc makes more than his share, and he makes the same ones repeatedly.

I never said he was a good coach. What I was commenting on was how Doc's bashers were being hypocritical and always have a double standard for the guy. I commented on the fact that the amount of blame that was being sent his way was so much more than he ever deserved that it is ridiculous.

Your constant comment of Doc putting his team in the best position to win falls on deaf ears here because ultimately we aren't in the huddles or lockerrooms hearing what is being coached. The only thing any of us can really question is his substitutions. Doc put his team in the best position to win defensively. He put them in a position to win, maybe not the best but he did put them in a position to win.

It is then up to the players to make the most of that opportunity and position. The players did not respond to that very well on the road at anytime during these playoffs. The blame for that is on their shoulders and no amount of blaming Doc is going to change the fact that most of this team was Jeckyl and Hyde from game to game so far this postseason.

Doc's not the best coach around, but I can point to about 15 other coaches that aren't any better than he is and don't have the resume he does. But Doc's team is still playing and at the moment only four other coaches are coaching games right now. I know Doc isn't the best coach, but he's the Celtics coach who has gotten them to the ECF, and so I support him. The same way I support Posey, House, BBD, Perk, Rondo, et al. They aren't the best at what they do either but they're Celtics. So I support and cheer them.

Doc has bad games and good games, unlike certain Big Three members who seem only to have bad games nowadays. But where are the people killing Ray for his performance? We all thought his matchup with Wally was where we would win this series. It turned out to be the matchup that almost lost this series. But it doesn't matter because Ray has another chance to be Ray Alen again.

So is it Doc's fault? Is what Doc's fault? That we are in the ECF? Doc is the coach of the Boston Celtics and he has them in a position to win a championship. Isn't that what we want, to have our coach put the team in the best position to win?


On an aside no matter the result of any game(except game 6 where 70% of the responsibility for that outcome lies wth the refs), if I had a pie chart for the responsibilities for the outcomes of these last 7 games, the responsibility would be divied up like this:

50% players
40% the other team
7% Doc
3% refs.

[reggie35]

50% players
40% the other team
7% Doc
3% refs.

that still makes Doc the individual with the greatest responsibility ;-)

[BudweiserCeltic]

What I don't get with this entire Doc argument is the hypocrisy of the Doc detractors.

Before the playoffs started Doc detractors were saying that Doc had to stop using all his players and to go with a set rotation. When he did using the starters and Powe, Brown, Cassell, and Posey. A great many Doc haters were then calling for Tony Allen and Eddie House to be used.

I don't think anybody was saying you stick with a player forever when he's playing terrible, ala Sam Cassell.  Many -- including myself -- were not happy that Eddie's role was eliminated completely.  More people are unhappy now that Powe has been dropped from the rotation for a largely under-performing BBD (although he had one decent game).

Just because people don't want 12 guys getting run in a game doesn't mean they want Doc playing ineffective players.

When you can list several things that you dislike about Doc, which he repeats game after game, I find it hard to label him a good coach.  No, he doesn't deserve 100% of the blame, or even 50% of it, but he's also not putting this team in the best position to succeed, and that's what a coach is supposed to do.  All coaches make mistakes, but Doc makes more than his share, and he makes the same ones repeatedly.

Here's my main problem with your post: Powe has been horrible these playoffs. There's no way around it, he's been horrible.  In fact, no one on the bench has given us at the least constantly decent games, except for PJ and Posey.  No one.  And this is not on Doc.  Doc has to play the guys who perform... we are in the playoffs after all, players have a shorter leash, especially unproven ones.  I'd love to see the coach that would've stuck with Powe, etc. with the way they were playing this playoffs. Constant defensive lapses, and being out huslted on rebounds (something which he at the least always did good).

You talk about not playing ineffective players, and yet you want Doc to play Powe... he's been by an large quite ineffective.

And in my opinion, he used Cassell well. Three games removed from almost single handedly winning us a game, he benched him for good.  That's not an easy thing to do, especially for a veteran of his caliber and with a questionable 3rd string PG who NO COACH has given a fair chance in the playoffs. Yet, Doc extended Rondo's minutes (when he played good, something that has been quite scarce during the playoffs) and gave this 3rd stringer a fair chance to perform when he realized (3 games removed from a brilliant performance) that Cassell wasn't getting it done.

Here's the story of the playoffs... Doc gives a chance for a bench guy to play, they play an excellent game.  They're given the chance the next game once again, and they for some reason play an awful game. What's the deal? What's a coach to do? We're in the playoffs, we don't have the luxury and patience to wait for unproven players to perform.  Just look at Rondo, he's our clear starting PG and he has been quite bad during the playoffs... this is not a matter of jerking people around, it's a matter of people underperforming during important times.

Well, Doc changed his rotations.  He changed the entire way the offense was being run.  He turned Pierce into a pick and roll point guard and put Garnett down on the low blocks instead of letting him drift up high.

I'd say that's a pretty clear sign that he realized execution was not the issue.  It's just too bad that it took him until game 7 to make some pretty obvious adjustments.

Actually, it's not a clear sign of anything. The only reason this has been working lately is because Pierce has stepped up his game as the series has progressed.  If this had been done earlier in the series, when Pierce was quite bad, it wouldn't have worked.  This only worked because Pierce showed up, and Doc altered his game plan to exploit the hot hand.

[winsomme]

Well, Doc changed his rotations.  He changed the entire way the offense was being run.  He turned Pierce into a pick and roll point guard and put Garnett down on the low blocks instead of letting him drift up high.

I'd say that's a pretty clear sign that he realized execution was not the issue.  It's just too bad that it took him until game 7 to make some pretty obvious adjustments.

Actually, it's not a clear sign of anything. The only reason this has been working lately is because Pierce has stepped up his game as the series has progressed.  If this had been done earlier in the series, when Pierce was quite bad, it wouldn't have worked.  This only worked because Pierce showed up, and Doc altered his game plan to exploit the hot hand.

i think the point you are making - and i agree with it - is that calling Doc going to Pierce in game 7 a change in game plan that he somehow should have done earlier in the series is a specious assessment.

Doc went to Pierce because he was killing them. and Doc has gone to the hot hand all year long. it is something he is known for doing, but in order to do it, someone needs to get the hot hand going.

now, if Doc had done something different scheme-wise to get Pierce going in that game, then maybe you could say that he should have done THAT earlier in the series, but as Tommy said in the post-game show, all Pierce did differently last night was execute the pick and roll better.

sometimes he split the trap and sometimes he went around the trap, but running the pick and roll with Pierce at the top of the key is something that we have done ALL SEASON and ALL SERIES. yesterday, they just ran it much, much better...

ironically, Doc got a lot of criticism for letting Pierce run the pick and roll during the season because he is not as good a ballhandler or passer as Rondo.

they also ran quite a few ISOs with Pierce down the stretch......another thing Doc was heavily criticized for during the season...

what will work in the ECF, now that is a different story because every series is different.

[kenmaine]

Well, at least yesteday he was a genius
No Cassell, Ray Allen sitting in the 4th quarter, PJ Brown was awesome, House and Rondo together was something I thought Doc would never even consider.
Still too close for comfort, and the officials apparently thought the game was in Cleveland, but it's on to the Pistons. Should be interesting.

[Brickowski]

Rivders wasn't a genius yesterday.  He just made fewer mistakes than usual.  Are fans of other teams typically left scratching their heads and wanting to throw something at the TV after each game?  With Rivers, that's the norm. Yesterday was the exception.

[Yakmanev]

50% players
40% the other team
7% Doc
3% refs.

that still makes Doc the individual with the greatest responsibility ;-)

There is no way the players held 43% more blame for the losses than Doc did.
I mean his coaching has totally changed the past two games. It's almost as if he is coming in here looking for suggestions because his coaching changes is eerily following what everyone here has been saying they'd like to see done.

He did a great job yesterday I will give him that and if he continues to do well I will rethink my "fire no matter what" mantra.

[Triboy16]

It is because of doc we had to go through near heartattacks the past two series. At worst for both it should have ended in 6.

Problem with doc like many of you have said is that he doesn't make the properly adjustments at the proper times. Eddie house has helped us come this far, yeah he is not a pure pg but he can definitely shoot the three. (we needed his ability to help space things out)

Even as much as i dislike doc , i have to say he did a great job game 7 with putting in the right guys in the right time. (ie pj and kg = awsome)(rondo defense, house offense = smart)

maybe he can learn from that crucial game