Will Doc Ever Coach a Team Out of the First Round?

[WedmanIsMyHero]

I think we are in agreement.  I was just pointing out that I think it *also* doesn't help that the key players lack a lot of winning playoff experience.  But in theory, that is what the coach is for. . . .

I am with you on Doc. . .I would have fired him over the summer once the team was good and had a chance to win something.  But on the players.

I contest the fact that the Big 3 and the Celtics in general have winning playoff experience. 

1. Getting to the conference finals once and then losing when you are a star in the NBA in your 30s is *not* winning playoff experience, it means that you have generally been on losing teams.  None of them have even been to the finals.  The fact that they are old arguably makes it worse.  When you are young, everyone seems to say you don't really realize what you are doing and overthink things, etc.  But now that the Big 3 are older, with their wisdom comes the fear of losing and what has looked like playoff tightness on the part of the Celtics.  And all of this is more true for Doc, who never won a championship as a player and was never even on a great team as a player, and has never won a playoff series as a coach.

2. Role players with rings is different from starters with rings.  Especially given how poorly Cassell is playing.

3. Example from Game 4: With about 2:30 left, Garnett reeled off 4 straight points (scoring at 2:40 and 2:02) -- like he had finally realized the game might be at risk.  Where was that the whole fourth quarter?  A guy like Tim Duncan, with the rings and the experience, would have known to turn it on earlier.  I am NOT blaming Garnett for the loss.  I am happy to blame Doc.  But I think that sequence exemplified the experience gap.

Anyways, point #1 here is what matters.  What do you think?

All three of the stars have lead teams to the conference finals.

Cassell has two rings.  Posey has one ring.  PJ Brown spent most of his career on playoff teams.


The only players that don't have experience winning in the playoffs are the young guys (two of which have stepped up) and the head coach as a head coach.


Do the players have to play better?  yes.  Do they take some of the blame?  Yes. 

But the person who can (and should) be replaced if (and that is still a big if) the Celtics lose to the Hawks is Doc.

But do you think Coach Pop would allow his team to settle for jump shots?   Doc said he was happy with the shots. 


Why go away from what worked?  Getting the ball down low to either score or pass out to the open man.  Either KG posting up or Rondo driving the baseline.  Why are we back to watching one on one ball with contested jumpers to often?

[nickagneta]

We're so quick to blame Doc.  Everyone we expected to play except TA was on the court last night and to a man they were out hustled and intimated at every position.  If you want to point a finger look at the man who has been over hyped this whole season "Kevin the Great".  We all by into his pregame antics and his yelling and cursing, however where is all that energy on the boards or in the post.  He's the tallest/longest player on the court and if that 15' footer isn't dropping forget it, he doesn't have a strong post game.  Everybody pushes him off the block.  Smith is killing him, Mr. Defensive Player of the year is stopping no one.  They’re changing our shots on the offensive end but there coming to the hole and jamming in our face.  Flashback!!!  Remember KG getting on all fours to play D and the crowd went wild?  What happened?  The person he was guarding drove to the hole and scored.  We all buy into the Pomp and Circumstance, because of the personality.  Wake up!  I love the Celtics and for that reason I know we will win this series but the playoffs expose all weaknesses and he has several.

I do blame Doc for a lot of it, but I do agree with some of your points about KG.  I've been saying all year long that he was given way too much credit for EVERYTHING.  Every time one of the players does something good, it's because of KG. LOL  It's like no one would do anything well if he was never here.  Pierce played good defense when he was on  a defensive team lead by O'brien, but he would NEVER have played a lick of defense ever again had KG not showed up.

On to Doc.  Sorry, but I do blame Doc for much of this.  Why did Eddie start the 4th quarter when he really hadn't played the whole series?  Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him minutes earlier in the game so he can get comfortable...get his feet wet.  He should not have been thrown into the fire like that ice cold.  He should have started the 4th quarter with the lineup that got the 10 pt lead to try to stomp on the Hawks and extend the lead.  This young athletic team is the perfect team for Tony Allen to get spot minutes to play defense.  Where the heck has he been?  Perk played great the first half, but was kept out of most of the 2nd half.

KG has not stepped up like he needs to, but Doc has made a LOT of mistakes in these last two games.

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.
[/quote]

I don't buy the whole "they are coming in cold" line. Never did, never will. It's their job to come in cold and produce. How many times have the bench players come in in the second quarter and produced right away? They didn't need a couple of minutes to warm up then. And how many times has a player missed a few days because they are sick or had a minor injury and then came in and produced right away? Many, many, many.

If they are so concerned, and they don't seem to be, only the people here complaining about it are, why don't they just set up a row of stationary bikes so the players can pedal on the bench and come in without being cold. Maybe they should construct side baskets away from the court so the players can practice their shots while on the bench.

I know those comments are silly, but I just don't agree with the whole argument. We can agree to disagree. I still feel it is their job to be prepared much the same way it is for a bench player in baseball or a backup cornerback in football. Those guys aren't given a few downs or innings or at bats to warm up. We shouldn't expect any different from NBA bench players.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Under your theory, Doc could *never* be a bad coach as long as he said those things?  Since if he says the right things and the players don't execute, that means he is a great coach?

How about this -- under what circumstances would you think Doc was not a great coach?

I am not saying he is or he isn't, but the way you just phrased that would mean Doc would always be rated a good coach in your mind since he says the right things. . .

All season long Doc Rivers has been preaching,

1. Respect you opponent.
2. Keep your composure.
3. Start the offense inside and work out. Don't settle for jumpers. Get to the free throw line.
4. Rebounding is key. Box out.
5. Push the basketball on offense, look for easy baskets.

The Celtic players did none of that the last 2 games. So that is on Doc?

No it's on the players namely KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo & Perk.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Why does it have to be either 100% players or 100% coach?  How about BOTH.

1. Doc has never been out of the first round and is not regarded as a great coach in general.

2. The Big 3 have all been the conference finals once. . and never beyond -- that is a whole lot of losing.  Consistent, nearly all the time, losing.  And when they had a good shot, they fell short in the past.  That's NOT winning playoff experience.

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.

[nickagneta]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.

Actually Larry Bird did blame himself and his teammates for being swept by Milwaukee in 1983

[APeretore]

In reverse order...

3. Defense. Where the hell was it? I saw it during the first 5 minutes, then again in the 3rd and then all of a sudden the Hawks were getting offensive rebounds like they were playing the Rutgers women's basketball team (safe to make this joke now, right?). But even further, the lack of defense was more a product of the personal on the floor during the most crucial stretches which is solely the responsibility of...

2. Doc Rivers. Why on earth was Eddie House out there for so long in the 4th? Why is he out there AT ALL in the 4th? Why isn't Cassell running the point if Rondo needs a rest? 6:30 for Cassell. That's idiotic. And why is Powe out there soooo much? Why did we sign PJ Brown, to rot on the bench? We need VETS in the game. Now granted, Powe certainly deserves run, but not as much as he was given last night. He brings nothing offensively (3 points) and was struggling to get his hands on rebounds (2 in 22 minutes, are you kidding me?). The rotations continue to be a joke. 66 regular season wins has masked certain issues, but they are starting to be exposed slowly in the Playoffs.

1. Ray Allen. The 21 points mean nothing when you're letting Joe Johnson torch you possession after possession in crunch time. Why did Doc stick with him on JJ? Where was Pierce? KG on Smith, Pierce on JJ. Simple as that. But Ray has to step up. Even if you can't stop Johnson, at least foul the crap out of him to make him think twice about coming into the lane again. I saw very little of that "no layups" attitude in the 4th quarter. Everything this team has prided itself on thus far disappeared in the 4th quarter. Defense, ball movement, patience, all out the window.

Collectively, the entire team needs to bring the same intensity we saw during the first 5 minutes of Game 4 for all of games 5 and 6. Anything less and we're in trouble. And if Eddie House steps foot on the floor at all, I would really start to worry about Doc. If Rondo's out, it's Cassell, simple as that. Keep the faith guys. Saturday night before Game 3 I was wondering if this team would lose a game before the Finals. Things haven't changed that drastically, but we need to get back to basics. I expect a massacre in game 5, 112-88.

[Who]

1. Getting to the conference finals once and then losing when you are a star in the NBA in your 30s is *not* winning playoff experience, it means that you have generally been on losing teams.  None of them have even been to the finals.  The fact that they are old arguably makes it worse.  When you are young, everyone seems to say you don't really realize what you are doing and overthink things, etc.  But now that the Big 3 are older, with their wisdom comes the fear of losing and what has looked like playoff tightness on the part of the Celtics.  And all of this is more true for Doc, who never won a championship as a player and was never even on a great team as a player, and has never won a playoff series as a coach.

They do look tight out there. Reminiscent of those Seattle teams in the mid-90s that lost to LA and Denver in the first round.

They need to get loose again. They've way too much pressure on them right now. The Hawks have none, nobody really expected them to win or challenge this series. One team is loose and playing free, the other, the Celtics is tightening up.

They'll snap out of it and take care of business but they've definintely looked stiff out there.

[wdleehi]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.

How is this not about the coach that has never won in the 1st round? 

How is this not about the coach that has the far superior team?


Nobody get a pass.


But the head coach of this debacle (if they don't pull it out or get past Cleveland) should receive a pink slip.

Doc has too much talent on this team that has played at a high level all year to be losing to inferior teams. 

[nickagneta]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.

How is this not about the coach that has never won in the 1st round? 

How is this not about the coach that has the far superior team?


Nobody get a pass.


But the head coach of this debacle (if they don't pull it out or get past Cleveland) should receive a pink slip.

Doc has too much talent on this team that has played at a high level all year to be losing to inferior teams. 

We can defend Doc all we want about just how much responsibility he has for the last two losses, and he definitely needs to shoulder some of that criticism, but wd is 100% right.

If Doc can't beat the Hawks or even the Cavs if they get that far, he must go. I have said all year that I would defend Doc to the last because the playoffs hadn't come yet and the worries of some had yet to materialize with this group.

But some of those worries are coming to fruitition and I say fire Doc's ass if he can't get to the ECF. Someone must bear the brunt of the responsibility and firing a coach is a lot easier than firing 15 players. Ultimately he IS responsible for how prepared his team is when it comes time to play and if they don't get where they want to it's because the players weren't properly prepared and the coach made mistakes.

[winsomme]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.

How is this not about the coach that has never won in the 1st round? 

How is this not about the coach that has the far superior team?


Nobody get a pass.


But the head coach of this debacle (if they don't pull it out or get past Cleveland) should receive a pink slip.

Doc has too much talent on this team that has played at a high level all year to be losing to inferior teams. 

strangely, i agree here.

it is put up or shut up time for this team.

but the problem in this thread IMO is that the panic over losing two games to the Hawks has created this idea that the Cs have already screwed up the playoffs and even if they do beat the Hawks, they have still let us down (specifically Doc has let the team down as far as this thread is concerned)...

my point is that  stuff goes down in the playoffs all the time......heck DAL lost in the first round last year after being a number one seed with 67 wins and being in the FInals the year before...

the point is to win the series and not worry about style points. this team is still trying to accomplish a totally unprecedented feat of basically going from worst to first in one season. they have no playoff experience together as team and now they are getting it.

i think everyone is a little too hung up on this idea that we should have swept the Hawks and IMO are acting like losing these games has poisoned their feelings about the team.

IMO i think we need to toughen up as fans just as the team needs to toughen up.

that doesn't mean not to point out things that they are doing or not doing that needs to be corrected.....but all this talk about firing people is premature (regardless of whether it should happen or not) and to me comes off as panic.

this is an insanely talented team and two loses does not change that.

they just need to settle down and get their feet under them and i think as fans we need to do the same thing.

and i would rather this moment happen now against a team that we are actually quite a bit better than where it should be easier to regroup than against a better team in a later round...

you know earlier in this thread, Doc was criticized for saying that he would save people jumping from the Tobin.....but when i actually listened to the clip, he obviously was joking around about that, but he also said something really good right after that. he said something along the lines about how take back this series. he said they were going home now and to not expect  that fact to turn the series for us. he said if they are going to take back this series, they are going to have to do it themselves on the floor with their play.

simple, but right on the money from where i am sitting.

i expect a tremendous game on Wed out of this team and for me i am just trying to remind myself that as frustrated as i am by losing these last two games, battling adversity is what the playoffs is all about. the Cs are getting a lesson in this fact earlier than any of us wanted, but maybe it will turn out better for us in the end.

[CelticsWhat35]

Cry me a river.   

[WillyBeamin]

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.


I don't buy the whole "they are coming in cold" line. Never did, never will. It's their job to come in cold and produce. How many times have the bench players come in in the second quarter and produced right away? They didn't need a couple of minutes to warm up then. And how many times has a player missed a few days because they are sick or had a minor injury and then came in and produced right away? Many, many, many.

If they are so concerned, and they don't seem to be, only the people here complaining about it are, why don't they just set up a row of stationary bikes so the players can pedal on the bench and come in without being cold. Maybe they should construct side baskets away from the court so the players can practice their shots while on the bench.

I know those comments are silly, but I just don't agree with the whole argument. We can agree to disagree. I still feel it is their job to be prepared much the same way it is for a bench player in baseball or a backup cornerback in football. Those guys aren't given a few downs or innings or at bats to warm up. We shouldn't expect any different from NBA bench players.

Coming in off the bench to play defense is a far cry from being asked to come into the game and hit contested three pointers in a hostile enviroment in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

[nickagneta]

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.


I don't buy the whole "they are coming in cold" line. Never did, never will. It's their job to come in cold and produce. How many times have the bench players come in in the second quarter and produced right away? They didn't need a couple of minutes to warm up then. And how many times has a player missed a few days because they are sick or had a minor injury and then came in and produced right away? Many, many, many.

If they are so concerned, and they don't seem to be, only the people here complaining about it are, why don't they just set up a row of stationary bikes so the players can pedal on the bench and come in without being cold. Maybe they should construct side baskets away from the court so the players can practice their shots while on the bench.

I know those comments are silly, but I just don't agree with the whole argument. We can agree to disagree. I still feel it is their job to be prepared much the same way it is for a bench player in baseball or a backup cornerback in football. Those guys aren't given a few downs or innings or at bats to warm up. We shouldn't expect any different from NBA bench players.

Coming in off the bench to play defense is a far cry from being asked to come into the game and hit contested three pointers in a hostile enviroment in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

It sure looked to me like Eddie was being asked to play PG and set up the offense and find the open man, not to run up the court and do what everyone has been blasting Sam Cassell for, namely looking for his own shot and that shot always being a three pointer.

Again, I don't buy it. It's his job to be prepared right away when coming off the bench. Heck, it's not his job, it's his entire career. You're giving the guy excuses for looking panicked and missing shots and blaming it on Doc.

We can agree to disagree because I will never see it any other way. It is a bench player's responsibility to enter a game at any time under any circumstances and be prepared and produce, period. It is the starters responsibility to enter each half prepared and ready to play. No one, and I mean no one, gets paid for taking a couple of minutes to warm up to do the job they are expected to do right away. No one.

[WillyBeamin]

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.


I don't buy the whole "they are coming in cold" line. Never did, never will. It's their job to come in cold and produce. How many times have the bench players come in in the second quarter and produced right away? They didn't need a couple of minutes to warm up then. And how many times has a player missed a few days because they are sick or had a minor injury and then came in and produced right away? Many, many, many.

If they are so concerned, and they don't seem to be, only the people here complaining about it are, why don't they just set up a row of stationary bikes so the players can pedal on the bench and come in without being cold. Maybe they should construct side baskets away from the court so the players can practice their shots while on the bench.

I know those comments are silly, but I just don't agree with the whole argument. We can agree to disagree. I still feel it is their job to be prepared much the same way it is for a bench player in baseball or a backup cornerback in football. Those guys aren't given a few downs or innings or at bats to warm up. We shouldn't expect any different from NBA bench players.

Coming in off the bench to play defense is a far cry from being asked to come into the game and hit contested three pointers in a hostile enviroment in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

It sure looked to me like Eddie was being asked to play PG and set up the offense and find the open man, not to run up the court and do what everyone has been blasting Sam Cassell for, namely looking for his own shot and that shot always being a three pointer.

Again, I don't buy it. It's his job to be prepared right away when coming off the bench. Heck, it's not his job, it's his entire career. You're giving the guy excuses for looking panicked and missing shots and blaming it on Doc.

We can agree to disagree because I will never see it any other way. It is a bench player's responsibility to enter a game at any time under any circumstances and be prepared and produce, period. It is the starters responsibility to enter each half prepared and ready to play. No one, and I mean no one, gets paid for taking a couple of minutes to warm up to do the job they are expected to do right away. No one.

nick you're talking about a guy who hasn't played meaningful minutes in a game since the regular season, almost 2 weeks. While you're right it's his job as a bench player to come in ready, it's also doc's job to put his players in a position to succeed, and putting in eddie in the 4th quarter of a tight playoff game on the road when he hasn't played hard fought minutes in two weeks is not doing that.

[nickagneta]

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.


I don't buy the whole "they are coming in cold" line. Never did, never will. It's their job to come in cold and produce. How many times have the bench players come in in the second quarter and produced right away? They didn't need a couple of minutes to warm up then. And how many times has a player missed a few days because they are sick or had a minor injury and then came in and produced right away? Many, many, many.

If they are so concerned, and they don't seem to be, only the people here complaining about it are, why don't they just set up a row of stationary bikes so the players can pedal on the bench and come in without being cold. Maybe they should construct side baskets away from the court so the players can practice their shots while on the bench.

I know those comments are silly, but I just don't agree with the whole argument. We can agree to disagree. I still feel it is their job to be prepared much the same way it is for a bench player in baseball or a backup cornerback in football. Those guys aren't given a few downs or innings or at bats to warm up. We shouldn't expect any different from NBA bench players.

Coming in off the bench to play defense is a far cry from being asked to come into the game and hit contested three pointers in a hostile enviroment in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

It sure looked to me like Eddie was being asked to play PG and set up the offense and find the open man, not to run up the court and do what everyone has been blasting Sam Cassell for, namely looking for his own shot and that shot always being a three pointer.

Again, I don't buy it. It's his job to be prepared right away when coming off the bench. Heck, it's not his job, it's his entire career. You're giving the guy excuses for looking panicked and missing shots and blaming it on Doc.

We can agree to disagree because I will never see it any other way. It is a bench player's responsibility to enter a game at any time under any circumstances and be prepared and produce, period. It is the starters responsibility to enter each half prepared and ready to play. No one, and I mean no one, gets paid for taking a couple of minutes to warm up to do the job they are expected to do right away. No one.

nick you're talking about a guy who hasn't played meaningful minutes in a game since the regular season, almost 2 weeks. While you're right it's his job as a bench player to come in ready, it's also doc's job to put his players in a position to succeed, and putting in eddie in the 4th quarter of a tight playoff game on the road when he hasn't played hard fought minutes in two weeks is not doing that.

Okay, I don't want to go back and forth on this thing forever, Willie but there is a minor problem with your reasoning. It wasn't a close game at the time. The Celtics were up 10 and controlling the tempo and pace and momentum of the game.

Eddie only missed two shots, a 20 footer or so that was in the flow of the offense and a 30 foot shot clock running down, last second heave. Eddie didn't play bad defense. He consistently got the ball upcourt with 20 seconds or so on the shot clock.

I just think saying he needed more minutes to be more effective is an excuse and shifts the blame for bad play where it doesn't belong.

TP for the discussion though. You make good points, it was I had decided this argument years ago.