Will Doc Ever Coach a Team Out of the First Round?

[Celts17Pride]

KG, Pierce & Allen are "choking" right before our eyes. KG almost threw up an airball from 2 feet last night. You can go ahead and blame Doc Rivers if you want but the real blame goes to the Big 3 (in the regular season) or the Little 3 (in the playoffs).

[wdleehi]

I am with you on Doc. . .I would have fired him over the summer once the team was good and had a chance to win something.  But on the players.

I contest the fact that the Big 3 and the Celtics in general have winning playoff experience. 

1. Getting to the conference finals once and then losing when you are a star in the NBA in your 30s is *not* winning playoff experience, it means that you have generally been on losing teams.  None of them have even been to the finals.  The fact that they are old arguably makes it worse.  When you are young, everyone seems to say you don't really realize what you are doing and overthink things, etc.  But now that the Big 3 are older, with their wisdom comes the fear of losing and what has looked like playoff tightness on the part of the Celtics.  And all of this is more true for Doc, who never won a championship as a player and was never even on a great team as a player, and has never won a playoff series as a coach.

2. Role players with rings is different from starters with rings.  Especially given how poorly Cassell is playing.

3. Example from Game 4: With about 2:30 left, Garnett reeled off 4 straight points (scoring at 2:40 and 2:02) -- like he had finally realized the game might be at risk.  Where was that the whole fourth quarter?  A guy like Tim Duncan, with the rings and the experience, would have known to turn it on earlier.  I am NOT blaming Garnett for the loss.  I am happy to blame Doc.  But I think that sequence exemplified the experience gap.

Anyways, point #1 here is what matters.  What do you think?

All three of the stars have lead teams to the conference finals.

Cassell has two rings.  Posey has one ring.  PJ Brown spent most of his career on playoff teams.


The only players that don't have experience winning in the playoffs are the young guys (two of which have stepped up) and the head coach as a head coach.


Do the players have to play better?  yes.  Do they take some of the blame?  Yes. 

But the person who can (and should) be replaced if (and that is still a big if) the Celtics lose to the Hawks is Doc.

But do you think Coach Pop would allow his team to settle for jump shots?   Doc said he was happy with the shots. 


Why go away from what worked?  Getting the ball down low to either score or pass out to the open man.  Either KG posting up or Rondo driving the baseline.  Why are we back to watching one on one ball with contested jumpers to often?

[nickagneta]

We're so quick to blame Doc.  Everyone we expected to play except TA was on the court last night and to a man they were out hustled and intimated at every position.  If you want to point a finger look at the man who has been over hyped this whole season "Kevin the Great".  We all by into his pregame antics and his yelling and cursing, however where is all that energy on the boards or in the post.  He's the tallest/longest player on the court and if that 15' footer isn't dropping forget it, he doesn't have a strong post game.  Everybody pushes him off the block.  Smith is killing him, Mr. Defensive Player of the year is stopping no one.  They’re changing our shots on the offensive end but there coming to the hole and jamming in our face.  Flashback!!!  Remember KG getting on all fours to play D and the crowd went wild?  What happened?  The person he was guarding drove to the hole and scored.  We all buy into the Pomp and Circumstance, because of the personality.  Wake up!  I love the Celtics and for that reason I know we will win this series but the playoffs expose all weaknesses and he has several.

I do blame Doc for a lot of it, but I do agree with some of your points about KG.  I've been saying all year long that he was given way too much credit for EVERYTHING.  Every time one of the players does something good, it's because of KG. LOL  It's like no one would do anything well if he was never here.  Pierce played good defense when he was on  a defensive team lead by O'brien, but he would NEVER have played a lick of defense ever again had KG not showed up.

On to Doc.  Sorry, but I do blame Doc for much of this.  Why did Eddie start the 4th quarter when he really hadn't played the whole series?  Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him minutes earlier in the game so he can get comfortable...get his feet wet.  He should not have been thrown into the fire like that ice cold.  He should have started the 4th quarter with the lineup that got the 10 pt lead to try to stomp on the Hawks and extend the lead.  This young athletic team is the perfect team for Tony Allen to get spot minutes to play defense.  Where the heck has he been?  Perk played great the first half, but was kept out of most of the 2nd half.

KG has not stepped up like he needs to, but Doc has made a LOT of mistakes in these last two games.

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.

[WillyBeamin]

I'm really not a doc basher, in fact, I've supported him most of the season and believe he should win coach of the year, but he's got to answer some questions about last night.

1) Why wasn't one of the 3 better options put on Joe Johnson instead of Ray. Paul, posey, and even dare I say Tony Allen would have been better options to be iso'd on JJ.

2) why weren't we taking the ball out of JJ's hands, make other players beat us, we started to do this... in the last 2 minutes, about 5 minutes too late doc.

3) why is eddie house getting his first significant minutes of the series at the beginning of the 4th quarter?

4) where was kendrick perkins? he was eating the hawks up inside, leon powe has been invisible all series (at least in Atlanta) and doc stuck with Powe for the majority of the 2nd half.

5) these rotations are rediculous. Go 8 deep, and use the other players in matchup situations. Starting 5 + posey, powe, sam/eddie, and MAYBE tony allen (I'm sorry, but last night's game SCREAMED tony allen).

There better be some significant improvement in our defensive plan against JJ next game, luckily back in boston there's little chance Atlanta keeps knocking down jumpshots at the rate they are.

[wdleehi]

I'm really not a doc basher, in fact, I've supported him most of the season and believe he should win coach of the year, but he's got to answer some questions about last night.

1) Why wasn't one of the 3 better options put on Joe Johnson instead of Ray. Paul, posey, and even dare I say Tony Allen would have been better options to be iso'd on JJ.

2) why weren't we taking the ball out of JJ's hands, make other players beat us, we started to do this... in the last 2 minutes, about 5 minutes too late doc.

3) why is eddie house getting his first significant minutes of the series at the beginning of the 4th quarter?

4) where was kendrick perkins? he was eating the hawks up inside, leon powe has been invisible all series (at least in Atlanta) and doc stuck with Powe for the majority of the 2nd half.

5) these rotations are rediculous. Go 8 deep, and use the other players in matchup situations. Starting 5 + posey, powe, sam/eddie, and MAYBE tony allen (I'm sorry, but last night's game SCREAMED tony allen).

There better be some significant improvement in our defensive plan against JJ next game, luckily back in boston there's little chance Atlanta keeps knocking down jumpshots at the rate they are.

at this point, I am almost ready to say use Scali as the first big off the bench.  We know he will play defense.  We know he has better chance staying in front of Smith.  We know the team defense will be just as strong. 

The only catch, the SF and SG have to do a better job crashing the defensive boards. 

[Celts17Pride]

All season long Doc Rivers has been preaching,

1. Respect you opponent.
2. Keep your composure.
3. Start the offense inside and work out. Don't settle for jumpers. Get to the free throw line.
4. Rebounding is key. Box out.
5. Push the basketball on offense, look for easy baskets.

The Celtic players did none of that the last 2 games. So that is on Doc?

No it's on the players namely KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo & Perk.

[Who]

If the Celtics lose in the 1st round it's because KG, Pierce & Allen have "choked". You really believe Woodson is outcoaching Rivers? NO. It's because Atlanta's Big 3 (Johnson, Smith & Hortford) are outplaying Boston's Big 3.

At this point, yes. 

He has found ways to get Bibby and Joe Johnson free. 

Celtics have yet to make an adjustment to it. 

I don't know Wdleehi. I'm not seeing anything different from Atlanta since the regular season.

Bibby only took 8 shots last night. Didn't score in the second half. Our defense was fine on him. He just made a couple more of those looks. He shot under 33% in each of the previous three games and never took more than 12 shots. Thats containing him.

Mike Woodson just ran isolation plays for Joe Johnson throughout the fourth. He only had 15 at the end of three quarters. Joe scoring 20ppg isn't a problem. Woodson has been slammed all year for all the iso plays he runs for Joe, Joe just made good shots with them.

Again I don't think he's doing anything that different.

Joe and Josh Childress have taken the ball up the floor instead of Bibby at times. Well they did that in the regular season too, both pre-Bibby and post-Bibby.

The only out of the blue thing that Atlanta has done is pass the ball more and move without the ball. But that only lasted one game, Game Three, where they had like 28 assists on 36 FGs. They played really well that night. They weren't able to do it again because they're not good at it. The whole second half last night was one-on-one basketball, they just made some great plays.

Those screens Bibby is setting for Joe, they love that, they do that all the time. They love forcing the switch and getting Joe in the post against a small point guard.

There's no large difference from his coaching. His players, starting with Josh Smith, are just playing better and playing with more composure on the ball.

[wdleehi]

All season long Doc Rivers has been preaching,

1. Respect you opponent.
2. Keep your composure.
3. Start the offense inside and work out. Don't settle for jumpers. Get to the free throw line.
4. Rebounding is key. Box out.
5. Push the basketball on offense, look for easy baskets.

The Celtic players did none of that the last 2 games. So that is on Doc?

No it's on the players namely KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo & Perk.

In the post game, Doc said he was happy with the offense and the shots.  They just didn't fall. 

Doc can preach anything he wants.  Shooting jumpshots makes him happy. 


He allowed his team to

1) Overlook the Hawks
2) lose there composure
3) not work the ball low enough
4) Not box out.  not out rebound the smaller hawks
5) Walk the ball up

[Bankshot]

We're so quick to blame Doc.  Everyone we expected to play except TA was on the court last night and to a man they were out hustled and intimated at every position.  If you want to point a finger look at the man who has been over hyped this whole season "Kevin the Great".  We all by into his pregame antics and his yelling and cursing, however where is all that energy on the boards or in the post.  He's the tallest/longest player on the court and if that 15' footer isn't dropping forget it, he doesn't have a strong post game.  Everybody pushes him off the block.  Smith is killing him, Mr. Defensive Player of the year is stopping no one.  They’re changing our shots on the offensive end but there coming to the hole and jamming in our face.  Flashback!!!  Remember KG getting on all fours to play D and the crowd went wild?  What happened?  The person he was guarding drove to the hole and scored.  We all buy into the Pomp and Circumstance, because of the personality.  Wake up!  I love the Celtics and for that reason I know we will win this series but the playoffs expose all weaknesses and he has several.

I do blame Doc for a lot of it, but I do agree with some of your points about KG.  I've been saying all year long that he was given way too much credit for EVERYTHING.  Every time one of the players does something good, it's because of KG. LOL  It's like no one would do anything well if he was never here.  Pierce played good defense when he was on  a defensive team lead by O'brien, but he would NEVER have played a lick of defense ever again had KG not showed up.

On to Doc.  Sorry, but I do blame Doc for much of this.  Why did Eddie start the 4th quarter when he really hadn't played the whole series?  Wouldn't it have been smarter to give him minutes earlier in the game so he can get comfortable...get his feet wet.  He should not have been thrown into the fire like that ice cold.  He should have started the 4th quarter with the lineup that got the 10 pt lead to try to stomp on the Hawks and extend the lead.  This young athletic team is the perfect team for Tony Allen to get spot minutes to play defense.  Where the heck has he been?  Perk played great the first half, but was kept out of most of the 2nd half.

KG has not stepped up like he needs to, but Doc has made a LOT of mistakes in these last two games.

Okay, help me out with this because it doesn't make sense to me. You are slamming Doc for putting Eddie House in cold when he hasn't played for a few games but you want him to put in Tony Allen cold when he hasn't played for a few games.

The whole being cold thing is a cop out to put the onus on Doc instead of the players. Eddie is a professional bench basketball player.

IT IS HIS JOB TO COME IN COLD AND PRODUCE!! Same for Allen! Or any other career non starter for that matter.

You know throwing everything at the feet of Doc Rivers when you just don't care for him as a coach is real easy, but the players have to be held accountable too. Doc lost all by himself one maybe two games all year and they lose two games in the playoffs and both are all Doc's fault, no, I don't think so.

Doc screwed up last night not handling the Joe Johnson guarding situation very well. Actually he was pretty bad at it. And he screwed up not keeping his team mentally prepared after the shot clock incident in game 1. But let's be fair here. Except for Rondo, who out of our starting five has given us any of the consistent excellent basketball they have been playing for most of the year. And what has happened to Leon Powe? He's the second guy off the bench and he has disappeared.

I just don't see where Doc should shoulder all of the blame for what has happened in Atlanta. He messed up but there were a ton of other and in some cases more important factors that led to the two losses. Like the Hawks play and our lack of good play.
[/quote]

Same with Tony Allen.  He should be in the game in the 1st half to get his feet wet instead of going to him with just a few minutes in the game and hope he can stop someone.  And as far as Eddie House coming in cold. It's one thing to come in for a few minutes a game and produce, but he hasn't been playing AL ALL in this series until last night.

[Celts17Pride]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

[wdleehi]

If the Celtics lose in the 1st round it's because KG, Pierce & Allen have "choked". You really believe Woodson is outcoaching Rivers? NO. It's because Atlanta's Big 3 (Johnson, Smith & Hortford) are outplaying Boston's Big 3.

At this point, yes. 

He has found ways to get Bibby and Joe Johnson free. 

Celtics have yet to make an adjustment to it. 

I don't know Wdleehi. I'm not seeing anything different from Atlanta since the regular season.

Bibby only took 8 shots last night. Didn't score in the second half. Our defense was fine on him. He just made a couple more of those looks. He shot under 33% in each of the previous three games and never took more than 12 shots. Thats containing him.

Mike Woodson just ran isolation plays for Joe Johnson throughout the fourth. He only had 15 at the end of three quarters. Joe scoring 20ppg isn't a problem. Woodson has been slammed all year for all the iso plays he runs for Joe, Joe just made good shots with them.

Again I don't think he's doing anything that different.

Joe and Josh Childress have taken the ball up the floor instead of Bibby at times. Well they did that in the regular season too, both pre-Bibby and post-Bibby.

The only out of the blue thing that Atlanta has done is pass the ball more and move without the ball. But that only lasted one game, Game Three, where they had like 28 assists on 36 FGs. They played really well that night. They weren't able to do it again because they're not good at it. The whole second half last night was one-on-one basketball, they just made some great plays.

Those screens Bibby is setting for Joe, they love that, they do that all the time. They love forcing the switch and getting Joe in the post against a small point guard.

There's no large difference from his coaching. His players, starting with Josh Smith, are just playing better and playing with more composure on the ball.

It is not just about getting Bibby shots.  It is about allowing him the freedom to get the Hawks into the offense quicker and easily. 


First two game, Bibby couldn't find room to get a shot off and was harassed into starting the offense late.  Atlanta made some adjustment that has given him space. 

[Bankshot]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

[BASSTHUMPER]

tony allen would be in for D....from good D brings points...tony is a slasher and would hit a layup before house hits a 3pt...

i've always felt that this was paul's team...i never leaned on kevin and ray..paul has to play with more heart and not anger..i blame paul..this is his team and he is not being a leader..

[Who]

If the Celtics lose in the 1st round it's because KG, Pierce & Allen have "choked". You really believe Woodson is outcoaching Rivers? NO. It's because Atlanta's Big 3 (Johnson, Smith & Hortford) are outplaying Boston's Big 3.

At this point, yes. 

He has found ways to get Bibby and Joe Johnson free. 

Celtics have yet to make an adjustment to it. 

I don't know Wdleehi. I'm not seeing anything different from Atlanta since the regular season.

Bibby only took 8 shots last night. Didn't score in the second half. Our defense was fine on him. He just made a couple more of those looks. He shot under 33% in each of the previous three games and never took more than 12 shots. Thats containing him.

Mike Woodson just ran isolation plays for Joe Johnson throughout the fourth. He only had 15 at the end of three quarters. Joe scoring 20ppg isn't a problem. Woodson has been slammed all year for all the iso plays he runs for Joe, Joe just made good shots with them.

Again I don't think he's doing anything that different.

Joe and Josh Childress have taken the ball up the floor instead of Bibby at times. Well they did that in the regular season too, both pre-Bibby and post-Bibby.

The only out of the blue thing that Atlanta has done is pass the ball more and move without the ball. But that only lasted one game, Game Three, where they had like 28 assists on 36 FGs. They played really well that night. They weren't able to do it again because they're not good at it. The whole second half last night was one-on-one basketball, they just made some great plays.

Those screens Bibby is setting for Joe, they love that, they do that all the time. They love forcing the switch and getting Joe in the post against a small point guard.

There's no large difference from his coaching. His players, starting with Josh Smith, are just playing better and playing with more composure on the ball.

It is not just about getting Bibby shots.  It is about allowing him the freedom to get the Hawks into the offense quicker and easily. 


First two game, Bibby couldn't find room to get a shot off and was harassed into starting the offense late.  Atlanta made some adjustment that has given him space. 

Yeah they stopped Bibby running the offense, both Boston and Atlanta.

Joe Johnson and Josh Childress are doing a lot of dribbling and iniating. Rondo can't do anything unlesss Bibby has the ball. And again this is something they've used on and off all year against ball pressure and during fourth quarters. Joe can play the point, he gives them that option.

Bibby isn't killing us by getting Atlanta into their offense quickly, he doesn't have the ball

[Celts17Pride]

There is a reason why KG, Pierce & Ray Allen have not won anything in their careers, your seeing it right now.

All three have led their teams to the conference finals.  It is Doc who has never gotten out of the first round.

See this is what I don't get. If the Celtics beat the Hawks and win the NBA Finals it's because KG, Pierce & Ray Allen were great and won despite Doc Rivers but if they lose it's Doc Rivers fault.

It's all about the players. Either KG, PP & RA are going to get it done or they are not. Larry Bird wouldn't be blaming the coach, he would be blaming himself. Your either a winning player or your not. You either have what it takes or you don't. This is an opportunity for KG, PP & RA to prove doubters wrong. They either step up and get it done or they don't.

This is not about the coach.