Cedric Maxwell: Hakeem over Bird

[Vermont Green]

If I were to tier my all time list it would be something like this

Arguable GOAT - Lebron, Kareem, MJ
4th - Magic
Arguable top 5 - Wilt, Bill, Duncan, Bird
Arguable top 10 - Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Curry, Kobe
Arguable top 15 - Moses, Dr. J, West, Durant, Jokic
Top 26 - Mailman, Dirk, Barkley, Giannis, Robinson, KG, Baylor, Pippen

Having Magic over Larry is certainly interesting. I?d take Larry?s mid 80s over any of Magic?s years. Magic also had Kareem as a sidekick. At the very least I think they should be on the same tier.

I am with Moranis on Magic.  I would have Magic above Kareem too.  Magic had his career cut short but even still, he accomplished a lot.  I have Jordan as the goat, and then right behind Magic and LeBron in no particular order.  Then Bird, Russell, Wilt, and so on.

[Who]

If I were to tier my all time list it would be something like this

Arguable GOAT - Lebron, Kareem, MJ
4th - Magic
Arguable top 5 - Wilt, Bill, Duncan, Bird
Arguable top 10 - Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Curry, Kobe
Arguable top 15 - Moses, Dr. J, West, Durant, Jokic
Top 26 - Mailman, Dirk, Barkley, Giannis, Robinson, KG, Baylor, Pippen

Having Magic over Larry is certainly interesting. I?d take Larry?s mid 80s over any of Magic?s years. Magic also had Kareem as a sidekick. At the very least I think they should be on the same tier.

I am with Moranis on Magic.  I would have Magic above Kareem too.  Magic had his career cut short but even still, he accomplished a lot.  I have Jordan as the goat, and then right behind Magic and LeBron in no particular order.  Then Bird, Russell, Wilt, and so on.

I saw one argument for Magic over Bird which I found interesting - that Magic outplayed Bird in the playoffs. That their regular seasons were similar but Magic surpassed Bird in the playoffs.

* 1982 = His TS% fell from 55% to 47%.
* 1983 = lose early. 56% TS down to 47.8%.

* 1985 = shooting dropped from 58.5% to 53.6% TS

* 1988 - shooting dropped from 60.1% to 53.8% TS

Incredible in 1984 & 1986. Strong in 1981 but again shot worse and scored less than you would expect in the Finals and it cost him the Finals MVP.

[Who]

I saw one argument for Magic over Bird which I found interesting - that Magic outplayed Bird in the playoffs.

* 1982 = His TS% fell from 55% to 47%.
* 1983 = lose early. 56% TS down to 47.8%.

* 1985 = shooting dropped from 58.5% to 53.6% TS

* 1988 - shooting dropped from 60.1% to 53.8% TS

Incredible in 1984 & 1986. Strong in 1981 but again shot worse and scored less than you would expect in the Finals and it cost him the Finals MVP.

To provide a counter argument to this.

I am surprised this bad shooting doesn't show up more in the general playoff averages for Bird vs Magic.

So I am using a 9 year sample for Bird from 1980-88 and an 11 year sample for Magic 1980-1991. Their healthy years.

Playoff Averages

Bird = 24.5ppg 10.7rpg 6.4apg 1.9spg 0.9bpg 55.5% TS
Magic = 19.2ppg 11.1apg 7.1rpg 1.9spg 0.3b 59.5% TS

BPM

7.7 for Magic
7.4 for Bird

VORP = 18.1 for Magic in 186 games / 7,403 minutes. 14.6 for Bird for 146 games / 6,176 minutes. Games and playing time matter for VORP so Magic should be ahead based on extra games / minutes.

So I am going to divide that VORP by games / minutes. Bird has 0.1 per game. Magic has 0.0973. Almost identical slight advantage Bird. I'll try minutes instead. Magic has a VORP of 2.445 for every 1000 minutes. Bird has a 2.364. So very similar slight advantage Magic.

So both BPM and VORP almost identical once you account for the difference in games / minutes in VORP. 

Final Thoughts

I would have expected a bigger gap in those advanced stats but it wasn't there. Also, Larry's averages and efficiency are still very strong despite several bad shooting performances in the playoffs.

Larry's TS% for this period was 57% which dropped to 55.5% in the playoffs. Magic's TS% for his period was 60.9% and dropped to 59.5% in the playoffs. Both dropped by about 1.5% TS. A nearly identical drop in TS%. But large advantage Magic in TS% overall.

[jambr380]

If I were to tier my all time list it would be something like this

Arguable GOAT - Lebron, Kareem, MJ
4th - Magic
Arguable top 5 - Wilt, Bill, Duncan, Bird
Arguable top 10 - Hakeem, Shaq, Oscar, Curry, Kobe
Arguable top 15 - Moses, Dr. J, West, Durant, Jokic
Top 26 - Mailman, Dirk, Barkley, Giannis, Robinson, KG, Baylor, Pippen

Having Magic over Larry is certainly interesting. I?d take Larry?s mid 80s over any of Magic?s years. Magic also had Kareem as a sidekick. At the very least I think they should be on the same tier.

I am with Moranis on Magic.  I would have Magic above Kareem too.  Magic had his career cut short but even still, he accomplished a lot.  I have Jordan as the goat, and then right behind Magic and LeBron in no particular order.  Then Bird, Russell, Wilt, and so on.

Just want to say that I have Bird over Magic. Much better defender and shooter. When you're playing with the 3rd best player of all-time, it's going to help you win. I have Magic right behind Bird. Disappointing and incomprehensible to hear Celtics fans rating Magic over Bird.