Frontcourt Is Going To Be An Issue This Postseason

[Moranis]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston. 

[Roy H.]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston.

Except your various plans involve the Celtics carrying salary significantly above the second apron into (and after) the trade deadline. 

[Vermont Green]

I think the way you would have to break this down to stay under the 2nd apron is assume that Holiday is traded in a salary dump deal instead of Porzingis but then somehow mimic the ATL-GSW trade by sending Porzingis to GSW.  In that scenario, we don't have Simons or Vucevic, but we have Kuminga and Hield.  I am not checking the numbers but I believe this could have us below the 2nd apron depending on what else we send out to make room for Hield.

So there you go.  Not sure the team is any better.

[Moranis]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston.

Except your various plans involve the Celtics carrying salary significantly above the second apron into (and after) the trade deadline.

Yeah, but that is sort of the point.  Heck Boston could have just kept Mann and the 22nd pick instead of dumping them to the Nets.  Mann would be a nice piece off the bench right now with his shooting from the wing position.

I totally get why Boston made all the moves it made for financial reasons, but there is no question the team could be better had some of those financial moves not been made.  And that is the issue, especially if Boston flames out early or loses a very close series at some point where a bit more talent might have been the difference.  If Boston wins the title, they got the best of both worlds or if they make the Finals and then get smoked, maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but anything else does sort of become a what if in my view. 

[Celtics2021]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston.

Except your various plans involve the Celtics carrying salary significantly above the second apron into (and after) the trade deadline.

Yeah, but that is sort of the point.  Heck Boston could have just kept Mann and the 22nd pick instead of dumping them to the Nets.  Mann would be a nice piece off the bench right now with his shooting from the wing position.

I totally get why Boston made all the moves it made for financial reasons, but there is no question the team could be better had some of those financial moves not been made.  And that is the issue, especially if Boston flames out early or loses a very close series at some point where a bit more talent might have been the difference.  If Boston wins the title, they got the best of both worlds or if they make the Finals and then get smoked, maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but anything else does sort of become a what if in my view.

Terrance Mann shot worse from 3 than all our bench wings this year, turns the ball over more, and plays worse defense (his defense isn?t bad, but it is not as good as Walsh, Hugo, or Scheierman).  He would not have made the team any better, and would have barely played.  Maybe he would have beaten out Ron Harper Jr. for minutes, but we are talking the 12th man in the rotation.  Maybe he would have helped at times in the regular season, but the regular season was perfectly successful without him.  He would not be getting any more minutes than Hugo is in the postseason.

There was a reason draft compensation was attached to him.  He provides 9th-11th man value at 50% more than we pay Sam Hauser.

[Roy H.]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston.

Except your various plans involve the Celtics carrying salary significantly above the second apron into (and after) the trade deadline.

Yeah, but that is sort of the point.  Heck Boston could have just kept Mann and the 22nd pick instead of dumping them to the Nets.  Mann would be a nice piece off the bench right now with his shooting from the wing position.

I totally get why Boston made all the moves it made for financial reasons, but there is no question the team could be better had some of those financial moves not been made.  And that is the issue, especially if Boston flames out early or loses a very close series at some point where a bit more talent might have been the difference.  If Boston wins the title, they got the best of both worlds or if they make the Finals and then get smoked, maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but anything else does sort of become a what if in my view.

I don't think that adding Mann (and his $16 million salary going forward) would have been a positive difference maker.  I'm not even sure he'd be getting playoff minutes.

[dannyboy35]

I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

Look at the bright side, we can dump if we want at the end of year if he does not work out. 

I think he has made some timely shots, and gave us good fouls.   I think he is still assimilating to some degree.  He has always been lumbering and has issues with sliding on D, but he is a wall down low.

   I thought he would be solid positioning wide down low but Embiid just got layup after layup going right through him. I didn?t see anything resembling a wall . This is what shocked me. Is Al Horford?s leg strength that much better than Vooch?s? Does he skip leg days?

[jambr380]

I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

Look at the bright side, we can dump if we want at the end of year if he does not work out. 

I think he has made some timely shots, and gave us good fouls.   I think he is still assimilating to some degree.  He has always been lumbering and has issues with sliding on D, but he is a wall down low.

   I thought he would be solid positioning wide down low but Embiid just got layup after layup going right through him. I didn?t see anything resembling a wall . This is what shocked me. Is Al Horford?s leg strength that much better than Vooch?s? Does he skip leg days?

For the Celtics to make any noise this offseason, Vucevic has to be much better than he has been. I have no idea what people are seeing that is making them think he has been good. His defense has been absolutely atrocious. Getting bullied down low like he is Isaiah Thomas and unable to even consider getting out on the perimeter to contest anything. I'm not sure I've seen a slower NBA player. I would have thought that the one thing he could do was bang down low.

I know he's been an all-star and that he's not as bad as he's shown in these playoffs, but this is when it matters. He needs to perform because his ability to spread the floor is worse than Garza and he hustles far less.

[Roy H.]

I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

Look at the bright side, we can dump if we want at the end of year if he does not work out. 

I think he has made some timely shots, and gave us good fouls.   I think he is still assimilating to some degree.  He has always been lumbering and has issues with sliding on D, but he is a wall down low.

   I thought he would be solid positioning wide down low but Embiid just got layup after layup going right through him. I didn?t see anything resembling a wall . This is what shocked me. Is Al Horford?s leg strength that much better than Vooch?s? Does he skip leg days?

For the Celtics to make any noise this offseason, Vucevic has to be much better than he has been. I have no idea what people are seeing that is making them think he has been good. His defense has been absolutely atrocious. Getting bullied down low like he is Isaiah Thomas and unable to even consider getting out on the perimeter to contest anything. I'm not sure I've seen a slower NBA player. I would have thought that the one thing he could do was bang down low.

I know he's been an all-star and that he's not as bad as he's shown in these playoffs, but this is when it matters. He needs to perform because his ability to spread the floor is worse than Garza and he hustles far less.

Most of that is fair.  Vuc's defense has been poor in every aspect. 

That said, all of our centers have been unable to play defense this series.  Queta and Garza have been fouling machines through five games.  Queta is at 11.0 fouls per 100 possessions; Garza is at 12.0!  That is exceptionally bad.  I assume that some of Vuc's lack of resistance on defense is that he knows he has to stay on the floor, so he has to be less physical. 

The other issue is that Vuc hasn't used properly on offense.  It's a waste of his interior scoring and rebounding skills to have him play so much on the perimeter.  We did the same thing with Horford, changing him from a guy that you could run the offense through and that had a very high assist rate into somebody who almost purely stood around the perimeter.  This is a guy who averaged 18.5 points on 59% 2PT shooting in Chicago this season, and we've got him taking 2/3 of his shots from outside.

[jambr380]

I was all for the Vooch for Simons deal and I wouldn?t take it back . I don?t think there would be enough shots for Simons. I don?t think he?s selfish . I just think he needs a certain volume to feel right.
   I didn?t expect a better player than Vooch . I WAS hoping his weakness could be somehow hidden / protected a bit more or he?d move just a little better . Not a knock on him . He is who he is . I was just curious ( when I don?t understand the cap well) if there was a player out there that people think of next year that may be affordable that makes us a little bit better of a team to take on OKC.
   We are already one of the best teams in the NBA. It?s just it turns into a 1 on 1 contest in the playoffs due to all the off ball holding preventing player movement.
   That benefits guys like Shai ( who is already mvp ) and Brunson ( who?s team really shouldn?t have a legit shot be this Celtics squad if reffed like the regular season .

Look at the bright side, we can dump if we want at the end of year if he does not work out. 

I think he has made some timely shots, and gave us good fouls.   I think he is still assimilating to some degree.  He has always been lumbering and has issues with sliding on D, but he is a wall down low.

   I thought he would be solid positioning wide down low but Embiid just got layup after layup going right through him. I didn?t see anything resembling a wall . This is what shocked me. Is Al Horford?s leg strength that much better than Vooch?s? Does he skip leg days?

For the Celtics to make any noise this offseason, Vucevic has to be much better than he has been. I have no idea what people are seeing that is making them think he has been good. His defense has been absolutely atrocious. Getting bullied down low like he is Isaiah Thomas and unable to even consider getting out on the perimeter to contest anything. I'm not sure I've seen a slower NBA player. I would have thought that the one thing he could do was bang down low.

I know he's been an all-star and that he's not as bad as he's shown in these playoffs, but this is when it matters. He needs to perform because his ability to spread the floor is worse than Garza and he hustles far less.

Most of that is fair.  Vuc's defense has been poor in every aspect. 

That said, all of our centers have been unable to play defense this series.  Queta and Garza have been fouling machines through five games.  Queta is at 11.0 fouls per 100 possessions; Garza is at 12.0!  That is exceptionally bad.  I assume that some of Vuc's lack of resistance on defense is that he knows he has to stay on the floor, so he has to be less physical. 

The other issue is that Vuc hasn't used properly on offense.  It's a waste of his interior scoring and rebounding skills to have him play so much on the perimeter.  We did the same thing with Horford, changing him from a guy that you could run the offense through and that had a very high assist rate into somebody who almost purely stood around the perimeter.  This is a guy who averaged 18.5 points on 59% 2PT shooting in Chicago this season, and we've got him taking 2/3 of his shots from outside.

I'm definitely not arguing that anybody else has been better. Queta proved to be at least a mid-tier NBA starting Center this season. From an expectations standpoint, he is right there with Derrick White as most disappointing this series. This is what people were worried he would look like going into the year.

But Vucevic is a veteran who should be valuable in Joe's offense. I agree that he's a talented post scorer, but I'd imagine Joe doesn't want him down there since it clogs the lanes for Tatum and Brown to operate. Embiid and Drummond having to at least consider the 3 point threat should open things up.

A couple of those Queta fouls last game were jawdroppingly stupid and Vucevic just folded like a tissue down low. Hopefully both of those guys can get their act together. I don't think anybody thought our bigs rotation would be an advantage, but it has to be better than this.

[Moranis]

I have no idea if Kuminga or Hield would make a difference at all, but that is an easy what if since they were traded straight up for KP at the deadline.  Kuminga would have at least added some decent size from a younger player.  And Hield while old can still hit a shot.

It's not so easy, as we couldn't have made that trade because it added salary.

by about 3 million, which there are ways to shed (even if it is just rerouting Hield somewhere else). 

I brought it up more to show there were options out there to get younger and better.  Kuminga was one example.  There were other guys actually moved that would have helped Boston.

Except your various plans involve the Celtics carrying salary significantly above the second apron into (and after) the trade deadline.

Yeah, but that is sort of the point.  Heck Boston could have just kept Mann and the 22nd pick instead of dumping them to the Nets.  Mann would be a nice piece off the bench right now with his shooting from the wing position.

I totally get why Boston made all the moves it made for financial reasons, but there is no question the team could be better had some of those financial moves not been made.  And that is the issue, especially if Boston flames out early or loses a very close series at some point where a bit more talent might have been the difference.  If Boston wins the title, they got the best of both worlds or if they make the Finals and then get smoked, maybe it wouldn't have mattered, but anything else does sort of become a what if in my view.

I don't think that adding Mann (and his $16 million salary going forward) would have been a positive difference maker.  I'm not even sure he'd be getting playoff minutes.

He certainly wouldn't be hurting the team this badly in this game.  Also would have had 22.  Maybe Hugo goes there and Kalkbrenner went at 28.  Or maybe Boston could have used Mann and 22 and gotten an actual player instead of a salary dump. 

It is more about the options that were off the table with the drive to get out of the tax.  The team simply isn't as good as it could have been.  We could have gone after a guy that could actual guard Maxey or Embiid instead of what we have. 

[ozgod]

So far the playoffs have been a performance of two extremes from the Celtics - shoot very well blow them out by 40, shoot poorly and lose. That inconsistency in the playoffs, and overreliance on shooting, might be why Brad decided to duck the tax and reset the repeater rate this season, and next. He knows that this isn't a championship team - yet. Tatum still looks like he's 75% and JB has lost his mojo after carrying the team most of the season. The young guys and White are struggling with their shots under pressure of the playoff lights and while Q has made huge progressions his flaws (fouling too much) are exposed in a seven game series. White looks more like a No4, a connector player, a force multiplier, than someone who you could say would be part of a Big 3. He can't create his own shot and he struggles when too much pressure is put on him, but he's great when he has other great players with him who he can make better.

With all that in mind, why waste an opportunity to get under the tax if we're not going to win a championship anyway? Get the team in the best position financially for our next spending window which will be not just next year but year after next. It may be that the overachievement in the regular season fooled us into thinking this is a better team than it really is. And is there really any move we could have made this season that would have justified us paying $200m-$400m in tax in 2027? If you were a gambler playing poker and you were in a hole for a lot with a decent but not great hand, would you keep doubling down or save your money for a better hand?

But this is where it's very hard for fans like us to think that way, because we don't have skin in the game, so whatever they end up spending in 2 years is irrelevant, even if it's $500m in tax. It simply doesn't matter in our value system because it's not our money. But I'm pretty sure this is how Brad and Co are thinking.

[Moranis]

As I said earlier in the thread, I totally get the moves over the summer when pretty much everyone thought Boston wasn't going to be very good and it looked like Tatum was going to miss the year.  Getting out of the tax and going for a high draft pick in a good deep draft made sense.  My issue is what the team did at the deadline.  At the deadline, the team was good and clearly going to make the playoffs, Tatum was progressing well, and the East was wide open.  Boston should have gone for it.  Plan should have changed when circumstances changed. 

[RodyTur10]

Well the Celtics did pick up Vucevic, a former All Star. He has been a big disappointment as well.
Although it didn't help that he got injured quickly and the Celtics have been inadequate for a while to make good use of big men who excel primarily offensively.

[Roy H.]

As I said earlier in the thread, I totally get the moves over the summer when pretty much everyone thought Boston wasn't going to be very good and it looked like Tatum was going to miss the year.  Getting out of the tax and going for a high draft pick in a good deep draft made sense.  My issue is what the team did at the deadline.  At the deadline, the team was good and clearly going to make the playoffs, Tatum was progressing well, and the East was wide open.  Boston should have gone for it.  Plan should have changed when circumstances changed.

That's a fair POV, but I have yet to see anybody propose a deadline trade that was realistic, worked under the CBA, and made us better.  We could have taken on about $8 million in salary to remain under the first apron.