ESPN top 100 athletes of the 2000's

[Moranis]

Dwight should definitely be on there. Probably top 15.  Criminally underrated in these things.

Ray and Pierce are close.  I could see it either way, but if you want to break the "tie" for the guy that retired as the all time leader in 3's and who has an extra title, I think that is probably ok.

[Who]

Dwight should definitely be on there. Probably top 15.  Criminally underrated in these things.

Ray and Pierce are close.  I could see it either way, but if you want to break the "tie" for the guy that retired as the all time leader in 3's and who has an extra title, I think that is probably ok.

Would you put Dwight over Pierce? Why?

I struggle with where to rank Dwight. He had a short brilliant peak. Some strong years around it. Some average years beyond that.

Rookie year = solid starter
2nd year = above average starter
3rd year = All Star

Then years 4 through 8, Dwight puts up a huge 5 year stretch were he is perennial MVP candidate. Leads Orlando to the Finals. Strong regular seasons every year. Another ECF appearance that wasn't that impressive a showing from Orlando.

Years 9, 10, 11 are All-Star level.

Then three more years as a starter. Followed by 4 years as a bench dude.

Overall

MVP candidate = 5 years
All-Star = 4 years
Starter = 5 years
Bench = 4 years

Dwight was amazing at his peak but his longevity in terms of top level performance ain't great.

One strong MVP push in 2011. More of an honourable mention the other years.

Team success

Orlando = Finals appearance, ECF
Houston = WCF

So three long playoff runs in his prime. One spectacular run with Orlando to the Finals.

[Who]

Paul Pierce

Rookie = above average starter
Years 2-15 = 14 All-Star caliber seasons
Years 16-17 = average starter
Years 18-19 = bench dude

In those 14 All-Star caliber seasons, Pierce had multiple top 10 player in the league performances although he never got the recognition. One time in 2009 he did. Three other times top 15.

Team Success

The ECF run with Antoine.

Then the strong run with KG, Ray and Rondo. One Title. One runners up. Another ECF. Three long runs. Two more 2nd rounds.

Outside of the KG era, not much postseason success.

[Moranis]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

[Who]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

The bench part doesn't matter to me when ranking All-Time players.

Like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat = I don't care. He was about as important to his team as Steve Kerr was to the Bulls. That doesn't change a guy's All-Time ranking. 

[Moranis]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

The bench part doesn't matter to me when ranking All-Time players.

Like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat = I don't care. He was about as important to his team as Steve Kerr was to the Bulls. That doesn't change a guy's All-Time ranking.

that is fine, but for 14 straight seasons Dwight averaged a double double. He had less than 1.6 blocks per game just 3 times in that stretch. It ended when he got hurt and played just 9 ga.es when he was 33 (after entering the league out of high school).  You are acting like he had an amazing 5 years and then was terrible, when thst just isn't the case. 

[Who]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

The bench part doesn't matter to me when ranking All-Time players.

Like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat = I don't care. He was about as important to his team as Steve Kerr was to the Bulls. That doesn't change a guy's All-Time ranking.

that is fine, but for 14 straight seasons Dwight averaged a double double. He had less than 1.6 blocks per game just 3 times in that stretch. It ended when he got hurt and played just 9 ga.es when he was 33 (after entering the league out of high school).  You are acting like he had an amazing 5 years and then was terrible, when thst just isn't the case.

I agree with that.

I view those 5 years as above Pierce. The rest of the 9 years was either below Pierce or comparable to Pierce.

Thus, I see Dwight as an interesting peak vs longevity argument. And it makes me unsure of how high I would rank him All-Time.

[smokeablount]

This morning ESPN put out Top 25 NBA players of the 21st century.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40616441/ranking-top-25-nba-players-21st-century

Top 5

1) Lebron
2) Kobe
3) Curry
4) Duncan
5) Shaq

Notable Celtics: KG (6) & Ray (20). No Pierce

How the hell is Pierce not there!!!

Why is Kobe above Duncan? Why is Steph above Duncan? Nonsense.

Ginobili is at #17 yet Pierce doesn't make the list. Tony Parker at #21.

DRAYMOND GREEN MADE THE LIST #22. No Pierce.

Surprised I?m the first to suggest that ESPN maybe just has beef with Pierce even after firing him. I kind of think of ESPN as the Fox News of sports media.

[Donoghus]

This morning ESPN put out Top 25 NBA players of the 21st century.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/40616441/ranking-top-25-nba-players-21st-century

Top 5

1) Lebron
2) Kobe
3) Curry
4) Duncan
5) Shaq

Notable Celtics: KG (6) & Ray (20). No Pierce

How the hell is Pierce not there!!!

Why is Kobe above Duncan? Why is Steph above Duncan? Nonsense.

Ginobili is at #17 yet Pierce doesn't make the list. Tony Parker at #21.

DRAYMOND GREEN MADE THE LIST #22. No Pierce.

Surprised I?m the first to suggest that ESPN maybe just has beef with Pierce even after firing him. I kind of think of ESPN as the Fox News of sports media.

The thought certainly popped into my head.  If you look at the panelists commenting on the different players, several were former coworkers of Pierce so you wonder how that may have influenced things.

[Moranis]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

The bench part doesn't matter to me when ranking All-Time players.

Like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat = I don't care. He was about as important to his team as Steve Kerr was to the Bulls. That doesn't change a guy's All-Time ranking.

that is fine, but for 14 straight seasons Dwight averaged a double double. He had less than 1.6 blocks per game just 3 times in that stretch. It ended when he got hurt and played just 9 ga.es when he was 33 (after entering the league out of high school).  You are acting like he had an amazing 5 years and then was terrible, when thst just isn't the case.

I agree with that.

I view those 5 years as above Pierce. The rest of the 9 years was either below Pierce or comparable to Pierce.

Thus, I see Dwight as an interesting peak vs longevity argument. And it makes me unsure of how high I would rank him All-Time.

Here are Dwight's 6th, 7th, and 8th best years (in order by calendar)

AS, 3rd Team - 17.6p/12.3r/1.9b/1.9a/0.9s
AS, 3rd Team - 17.1p/12.4r(led league)/2.4b/1.4a/1.1s - 14th dpoy
AS, 2nd Team - 18.3p/12.3r/1.8b/1.8a/0.8s - 8th in dpoy

It is a but harder to differentiate Pierce, but for this I've counted his top 5 seasons as the 5 seasons he received mvp votes and included only basically full seasons, but here are his 6th, 7th, and 8th best seasons (again by calendar year)

AS - 21.6p/6.6r/4.2a/1.6s/0.5b
AS - 26.8p/6.7r/4.7a/1.4s/0.4b
AS - 18.9p/5.4r/3.3a/1.0s/0.6b

So MVP Dwight way better and then all star Dwight, is still better in that the media felt he was a top 15 player a d they did not with Pierce.  So 8 years Dwight was a significantly better player.  Pierce definitely had a longer career, but 8 years is a long time at peak.

[Roy H.]

Dwight was simply better than Pierce (3 straight dpoy and 4 straight top 5 mvp finishes) and he had a long enough peak (8 striaght years on an all nba team). He isn't Derrick Rose.  He also adapted to a bench role and contributed to a title team later in his career.  Dwight suffers a great deal from not being good with the media and his spat with both SVG and Kobe.  Just too much personality and not enough basketball where Dwight is concerned.

The bench part doesn't matter to me when ranking All-Time players.

Like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat = I don't care. He was about as important to his team as Steve Kerr was to the Bulls. That doesn't change a guy's All-Time ranking.

that is fine, but for 14 straight seasons Dwight averaged a double double. He had less than 1.6 blocks per game just 3 times in that stretch. It ended when he got hurt and played just 9 ga.es when he was 33 (after entering the league out of high school).  You are acting like he had an amazing 5 years and then was terrible, when thst just isn't the case.

I agree with that.

I view those 5 years as above Pierce. The rest of the 9 years was either below Pierce or comparable to Pierce.

Thus, I see Dwight as an interesting peak vs longevity argument. And it makes me unsure of how high I would rank him All-Time.

Here are Dwight's 6th, 7th, and 8th best years (in order by calendar)

AS, 3rd Team - 17.6p/12.3r/1.9b/1.9a/0.9s
AS, 3rd Team - 17.1p/12.4r(led league)/2.4b/1.4a/1.1s - 14th dpoy
AS, 2nd Team - 18.3p/12.3r/1.8b/1.8a/0.8s - 8th in dpoy

It is a but harder to differentiate Pierce, but for this I've counted his top 5 seasons as the 5 seasons he received mvp votes and included only basically full seasons, but here are his 6th, 7th, and 8th best seasons (again by calendar year)

AS - 21.6p/6.6r/4.2a/1.6s/0.5b
AS - 26.8p/6.7r/4.7a/1.4s/0.4b
AS - 18.9p/5.4r/3.3a/1.0s/0.6b

So MVP Dwight way better and then all star Dwight, is still better in that the media felt he was a top 15 player a d they did not with Pierce.  So 8 years Dwight was a significantly better player.  Pierce definitely had a longer career, but 8 years is a long time at peak.

They didn't pick "top 15" for All-NBA back then.