Porzingis injury updates (Update: Dislocated Tendon)

[Roy H.]

Still need to bring him back regardless. He needs reps. I'll take a 70% Porzingis. Miami Heat brought back Chris Bosh from his injury while he wasn't 100% and pretty much contributed in beating us in the ECF back in 2012.

Myles Turner abused the hell out of Kornet and Horford, and Joe is refusing to go deeper into the bench so we need answers to that.

70% Porzingis wouldn't make it out of the ECF.  Heck, based on how the original injury occurred, I'm skeptical that he'd survive a full game.

[Vermont Green]

I think you have to get Porzingis some run to shake off the rust and back into the flow.  Missing a month and then getting inserted into high stakes (ECF/Finals) playoff intensity would take at least a game or two.

yeah, I don't understand this concept that even if healthy you want to sit him and throw him out in Game 1 against say Gobert/towns in a high intensity finals game 1.

Nobody, including KP or his doctors, are going to know for certain that he's 100% healthy.  He might feel fine, but that doesn't mean he's healed all of the way.  More rest means more healing time, more strengthening, etc.

From what I've read, every calf strain makes a subsequent calf strain more likely.  That being the case, mixed with the fact that KP's calf popped so quickly and easily after he compensated for his ankle injury, makes me extremely wary.  I think that once he returns, we'll only be able to count on him for a limited number of games.  In my mind, I'd like to start that clock as late as possible.

If that part is true, and that is what the Doctors tell the team, that he is only good for 5-10 games or whatever, then sure, don't play him until you have too.  But what if the "number of games" is more like between 10-100, something more realistic in my mind.

It is of course a trade off.  The more games you ask him to play, the more risk of injury. I don't see the time between game 4 and finals game 1 (about 1.5 weeks if I remember correctly) making all that much difference in his healing.  If he isn't healed by game 4, then something is going on and he may not be healed until next season.

But if he is healed, or as healed as he is going to get, I say get him out there for game 4.  We are all in for this title.  The best chance to win the title is to have Porzingis back with a couple of games under his belt for Game 1 of the finals.

What are you basing the underlined on?  It seems arbitrary to say that 30 days is enough (or whatever the time frame is), but another 10 days (i.e., 25% more healing time) would make no difference.

Based on all the reporting of what a Grade 1 or 2 strain takes to heal.  That is why I say that if it isn't healed in 4 weeks, it probably isn't a Grade 1 or 2 strain, it is something more serious, and it probably isn't going to be healed or all that much different in 5 weeks.  Grade 3 strains or full tears are being reported as season ending injuries.  All just speculation based on connecting dots.

That is really my biggest concern, that if he isn't ready in 4 weeks, he may not be ready at all.  If he comes back for game 4, for example, that would be 7-10 games he would try to play.  If he comes back for game 1 of the finals, what 6-7 games likely?  If this injury is so fragile that he can play 7 games but not 9 games, we are in trouble in any case.  May as well roll the dice and see if we can get 7-10 games out of him, with him being that much better for the first few games of the finals.

[Roy H.]

I think you have to get Porzingis some run to shake off the rust and back into the flow.  Missing a month and then getting inserted into high stakes (ECF/Finals) playoff intensity would take at least a game or two.

yeah, I don't understand this concept that even if healthy you want to sit him and throw him out in Game 1 against say Gobert/towns in a high intensity finals game 1.

Nobody, including KP or his doctors, are going to know for certain that he's 100% healthy.  He might feel fine, but that doesn't mean he's healed all of the way.  More rest means more healing time, more strengthening, etc.

From what I've read, every calf strain makes a subsequent calf strain more likely.  That being the case, mixed with the fact that KP's calf popped so quickly and easily after he compensated for his ankle injury, makes me extremely wary.  I think that once he returns, we'll only be able to count on him for a limited number of games.  In my mind, I'd like to start that clock as late as possible.

If that part is true, and that is what the Doctors tell the team, that he is only good for 5-10 games or whatever, then sure, don't play him until you have too.  But what if the "number of games" is more like between 10-100, something more realistic in my mind.

It is of course a trade off.  The more games you ask him to play, the more risk of injury. I don't see the time between game 4 and finals game 1 (about 1.5 weeks if I remember correctly) making all that much difference in his healing.  If he isn't healed by game 4, then something is going on and he may not be healed until next season.

But if he is healed, or as healed as he is going to get, I say get him out there for game 4.  We are all in for this title.  The best chance to win the title is to have Porzingis back with a couple of games under his belt for Game 1 of the finals.

What are you basing the underlined on?  It seems arbitrary to say that 30 days is enough (or whatever the time frame is), but another 10 days (i.e., 25% more healing time) would make no difference.

Based on all the reporting of what a Grade 1 or 2 strain takes to heal.  That is why I say that if it isn't healed in 4 weeks, it probably isn't a Grade 1 or 2 strain, it is something more serious, and it probably isn't going to be healed or all that much different in 5 weeks.  Grade 3 strains or full tears are being reported as season ending injuries.  All just speculation based on connecting dots.

That is really my biggest concern, that if he isn't ready in 4 weeks, he may not be ready at all.  If he comes back for game 4, for example, that would be 7-10 games he would try to play.  If he comes back for game 1 of the finals, what 6-7 games likely?  If this injury is so fragile that he can play 7 games but not 9 games, we are in trouble in any case.  May as well roll the dice and see if we can get 7-10 games out of him, with him being that much better for the first few games of the finals.

Talk to any doctor:  you can't make any conclusions about KP's injury based upon the publicly available information.  Time frames found on the internet are just estimates.  Nobody can talk about KP's expected healing rate without examining him and his medical records.

[gift]

I think you have to get Porzingis some run to shake off the rust and back into the flow.  Missing a month and then getting inserted into high stakes (ECF/Finals) playoff intensity would take at least a game or two.

yeah, I don't understand this concept that even if healthy you want to sit him and throw him out in Game 1 against say Gobert/towns in a high intensity finals game 1.

Nobody, including KP or his doctors, are going to know for certain that he's 100% healthy.  He might feel fine, but that doesn't mean he's healed all of the way.  More rest means more healing time, more strengthening, etc.

From what I've read, every calf strain makes a subsequent calf strain more likely.  That being the case, mixed with the fact that KP's calf popped so quickly and easily after he compensated for his ankle injury, makes me extremely wary.  I think that once he returns, we'll only be able to count on him for a limited number of games.  In my mind, I'd like to start that clock as late as possible.

If that part is true, and that is what the Doctors tell the team, that he is only good for 5-10 games or whatever, then sure, don't play him until you have too.  But what if the "number of games" is more like between 10-100, something more realistic in my mind.

It is of course a trade off.  The more games you ask him to play, the more risk of injury. I don't see the time between game 4 and finals game 1 (about 1.5 weeks if I remember correctly) making all that much difference in his healing.  If he isn't healed by game 4, then something is going on and he may not be healed until next season.

But if he is healed, or as healed as he is going to get, I say get him out there for game 4.  We are all in for this title.  The best chance to win the title is to have Porzingis back with a couple of games under his belt for Game 1 of the finals.

What are you basing the underlined on?  It seems arbitrary to say that 30 days is enough (or whatever the time frame is), but another 10 days (i.e., 25% more healing time) would make no difference.

Based on all the reporting of what a Grade 1 or 2 strain takes to heal.  That is why I say that if it isn't healed in 4 weeks, it probably isn't a Grade 1 or 2 strain, it is something more serious, and it probably isn't going to be healed or all that much different in 5 weeks.  Grade 3 strains or full tears are being reported as season ending injuries.  All just speculation based on connecting dots.

That is really my biggest concern, that if he isn't ready in 4 weeks, he may not be ready at all.  If he comes back for game 4, for example, that would be 7-10 games he would try to play.  If he comes back for game 1 of the finals, what 6-7 games likely?  If this injury is so fragile that he can play 7 games but not 9 games, we are in trouble in any case.  May as well roll the dice and see if we can get 7-10 games out of him, with him being that much better for the first few games of the finals.

you also have to factor in, not just the injury, but second order effects as well. maybe an injury is 100% healed but conditioning could be improved with 3-5 extra days of cardio/rehab that can't be done until the injury is fully healed. and that conditioning reduces the likelihood of re-injury by 20%. so you have 6-7 games of reduced re-injury or 9 with greater risk. that's just an example. it could be many considerations.

[GreenEnvy]

I think you have to get Porzingis some run to shake off the rust and back into the flow.  Missing a month and then getting inserted into high stakes (ECF/Finals) playoff intensity would take at least a game or two.

yeah, I don't understand this concept that even if healthy you want to sit him and throw him out in Game 1 against say Gobert/towns in a high intensity finals game 1.

Nobody, including KP or his doctors, are going to know for certain that he's 100% healthy.  He might feel fine, but that doesn't mean he's healed all of the way.  More rest means more healing time, more strengthening, etc.

From what I've read, every calf strain makes a subsequent calf strain more likely.  That being the case, mixed with the fact that KP's calf popped so quickly and easily after he compensated for his ankle injury, makes me extremely wary.  I think that once he returns, we'll only be able to count on him for a limited number of games.  In my mind, I'd like to start that clock as late as possible.

If that part is true, and that is what the Doctors tell the team, that he is only good for 5-10 games or whatever, then sure, don't play him until you have too.  But what if the "number of games" is more like between 10-100, something more realistic in my mind.

It is of course a trade off.  The more games you ask him to play, the more risk of injury. I don't see the time between game 4 and finals game 1 (about 1.5 weeks if I remember correctly) making all that much difference in his healing.  If he isn't healed by game 4, then something is going on and he may not be healed until next season.

But if he is healed, or as healed as he is going to get, I say get him out there for game 4.  We are all in for this title.  The best chance to win the title is to have Porzingis back with a couple of games under his belt for Game 1 of the finals.

What are you basing the underlined on?  It seems arbitrary to say that 30 days is enough (or whatever the time frame is), but another 10 days (i.e., 25% more healing time) would make no difference.

Based on all the reporting of what a Grade 1 or 2 strain takes to heal.  That is why I say that if it isn't healed in 4 weeks, it probably isn't a Grade 1 or 2 strain, it is something more serious, and it probably isn't going to be healed or all that much different in 5 weeks.  Grade 3 strains or full tears are being reported as season ending injuries.  All just speculation based on connecting dots.

That is really my biggest concern, that if he isn't ready in 4 weeks, he may not be ready at all.  If he comes back for game 4, for example, that would be 7-10 games he would try to play.  If he comes back for game 1 of the finals, what 6-7 games likely?  If this injury is so fragile that he can play 7 games but not 9 games, we are in trouble in any case.  May as well roll the dice and see if we can get 7-10 games out of him, with him being that much better for the first few games of the finals.

You’re focusing on the amount of games left compared to his healing time. If this was December would you be questioning why he can’t play in 54 games compared to 51 by holding him out an extra week?

That’s how many games are left. It’s the playoffs. It doesn’t change the injury, when it happened, or how long it takes to recover.

Bring him back a week early and you risk a much more severe injury. I trust they are being cautious with him, and if they feel they NEED him, they will let him give it a go.

Right now, they don’t NEED him. Ideally he is cleared fully this weekend and he can play Game 4, we make it a short series, and he can play himself into shape in the time off between the ECF and Finals. But we still have 3 more to go to get there, and we should prepare to do it without him at this very moment.

[keevsnick]

I think you have to get Porzingis some run to shake off the rust and back into the flow.  Missing a month and then getting inserted into high stakes (ECF/Finals) playoff intensity would take at least a game or two.

yeah, I don't understand this concept that even if healthy you want to sit him and throw him out in Game 1 against say Gobert/towns in a high intensity finals game 1.

Nobody, including KP or his doctors, are going to know for certain that he's 100% healthy.  He might feel fine, but that doesn't mean he's healed all of the way.  More rest means more healing time, more strengthening, etc.

From what I've read, every calf strain makes a subsequent calf strain more likely.  That being the case, mixed with the fact that KP's calf popped so quickly and easily after he compensated for his ankle injury, makes me extremely wary.  I think that once he returns, we'll only be able to count on him for a limited number of games.  In my mind, I'd like to start that clock as late as possible.

If that part is true, and that is what the Doctors tell the team, that he is only good for 5-10 games or whatever, then sure, don't play him until you have too.  But what if the "number of games" is more like between 10-100, something more realistic in my mind.

It is of course a trade off.  The more games you ask him to play, the more risk of injury. I don't see the time between game 4 and finals game 1 (about 1.5 weeks if I remember correctly) making all that much difference in his healing.  If he isn't healed by game 4, then something is going on and he may not be healed until next season.

But if he is healed, or as healed as he is going to get, I say get him out there for game 4.  We are all in for this title.  The best chance to win the title is to have Porzingis back with a couple of games under his belt for Game 1 of the finals.

What are you basing the underlined on?  It seems arbitrary to say that 30 days is enough (or whatever the time frame is), but another 10 days (i.e., 25% more healing time) would make no difference.

Based on all the reporting of what a Grade 1 or 2 strain takes to heal.  That is why I say that if it isn't healed in 4 weeks, it probably isn't a Grade 1 or 2 strain, it is something more serious, and it probably isn't going to be healed or all that much different in 5 weeks.  Grade 3 strains or full tears are being reported as season ending injuries.  All just speculation based on connecting dots.

That is really my biggest concern, that if he isn't ready in 4 weeks, he may not be ready at all.  If he comes back for game 4, for example, that would be 7-10 games he would try to play.  If he comes back for game 1 of the finals, what 6-7 games likely?  If this injury is so fragile that he can play 7 games but not 9 games, we are in trouble in any case.  May as well roll the dice and see if we can get 7-10 games out of him, with him being that much better for the first few games of the finals.

A grade 2 strain can be anywhere from a 3-5 week injury. If he's not back by 4 I don't think that's any indication, at all, that it a grade 3 strain.

[cman88]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

[Celtics2021]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

If we’re up 3-0 in game 4, yes, I’d advocate that.  Down 1-2, obviously he should play.  Up 2-1, I’d want to make sure the doctors were really confident he wasn’t going to hurt himself 15 minutes in.

[Vermont Green]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

Exactly.  The clock it ticking on the season.  The window of opportunity to have him 100% (healed and in game shape) for the start of the finals is shrinking.  I feel there should be a concerted effort to get him back in the IND series.  If the thing isn't healed or is still sore or whatever, then of course, that isn't going to happen and plan B can be trying to get him back for the start of the finals.

But not having him 100% for the start of the finals (which I assume he won't be if that is his first game in 5.5 weeks), could cost us a game.  And that one game could cost us a title.  I get that if he reinjures himself in the IND series, then we don't have him at all for the finals.  He could reinjure himself in game 1 of the finals.

I play him the moment he and the doctors say he is ready to play.  Maybe off the bench until he proves he is fully back in shape.  There is no more time left to give him "extra" time.  Every effort should be made to get him on the court as soon as possible.

[Roy H.]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

And once again, doctors have no way of knowing if he is truly "ready", or 100% physically.  If we were up 3-0 in the series I'd absolutely sit him, and give him more time for rehab and strengthening.

Almost every player who comes back from an injury and gets re-injured was medically cleared to play. It's not in any way an exact science.

[Vermont Green]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

And once again, doctors have no way of knowing if he is truly "ready", or 100% physically.  If we were up 3-0 in the series I'd absolutely sit him, and give him more time for rehab and strengthening.

Almost every player who comes back from an injury and gets re-injured was medically cleared to play. It's not in any way an exact science.

You can argue both sides if this.  Since medicine is such an inexact science, there is no way to quantify that sitting an extra week or 3 days will reduce the risk of reinjury in any meaningful way.  You could sit Porzingis until the start of next season and there would still be no way a doctor could say for sure what the risk or reinjury would be.

I had an ankle injury and there was a point, after about 6 weeks, where the doctor said "good to go".  The x-ray showed it was healed.  He didn't say that if I waited another week there was xx% less chance of reinjury or anything like that  It took me over a month to build the strength back in my ankle.  It was healed, but it needed to be reconditioned.

I think there is a point where a Doctor can say that this injury is as healed as it is going to get.  That the strain is healed.  There may be more risk of reinjury after this injury than there was before the injury, but that is going to be true a week from now, a month from now, a year from now.

The only reason that could justify sitting him beyond the point when the doctors say "good to go" would be if the doctors say his calf isn't really healed, and isn't going to heal in the near term, and is only going to hold up for say 5 games.  Then you could justify not using up one of those games in the IND series if we are up and cruising.

[Roy H.]

Once again. No one is saying rush KP back if he isn’t ready. We are saying if the doctors say he is ready don’t just sit him for the heck of it.

If DRs say he’s good to go for game 4. Are we advocating saying “nah we got this sit out KP until the finals”

And once again, doctors have no way of knowing if he is truly "ready", or 100% physically.  If we were up 3-0 in the series I'd absolutely sit him, and give him more time for rehab and strengthening.

Almost every player who comes back from an injury and gets re-injured was medically cleared to play. It's not in any way an exact science.

You can argue both sides if this.  Since medicine is such an inexact science, there is no way to quantify that sitting an extra week or 3 days will reduce the risk of reinjury in any meaningful way.  You could sit Porzingis until the start of next season and there would still be no way a doctor could say for sure what the risk or reinjury would be.

I had an ankle injury and there was a point, after about 6 weeks, where the doctor said "good to go".  The x-ray showed it was healed.  He didn't say that if I waited another week there was xx% less chance of reinjury or anything like that  It took me over a month to build the strength back in my ankle.  It was healed, but it needed to be reconditioned.

I think there is a point where a Doctor can say that this injury is as healed as it is going to get.  That the strain is healed.  There may be more risk of reinjury after this injury than there was before the injury, but that is going to be true a week from now, a month from now, a year from now.

The only reason that could justify sitting him beyond the point when the doctors say "good to go" would be if the doctors say his calf isn't really healed, and isn't going to heal in the near term, and is only going to hold up for say 5 games.  They you could justify not using up one of those games in the IND series if we are up and cruising.

So, take your example (while understanding that MRIs for muscle strains and x-rays for bone fractures aren't the same thing):  it took a month to regain full strength.  Doesn't it make sense that KP's calf needs strengthening and additional rehab?

What you seem to be advocating is asking him to play in a weakened condition, instead of taking some extra time to rehab.  And, we've seen what happens when KP plays in a weakened condition.  The guy injured his ankle, and two plays later he strained his calf.  What's going to happen if, as soon as he's physically healed but still weak, he's put into a high-intensity situation?  Wouldn't that be like you running sprints on your ankle the day after the doctor said you were good to go?  How do you think that would have worked out?

I'd rather not see another Kevin Durant situation.

[Vermont Green]

What you seem to be advocating is asking him to play in a weakened condition, instead of taking some extra time to rehab.  And, we've seen what happens when KP plays in a weakened condition.  The guy injured his ankle, and two plays later he strained his calf.  What's going to happen if, as soon as he's physically healed but still weak, he's put into a high-intensity situation?  Wouldn't that be like you running sprints on your ankle the day after the doctor said you were good to go?  How do you think that would have worked out?

I'd rather not see another Kevin Durant situation.

That it totally NOT what I am saying or anyone else is saying.  You are making an assumption that he would be weakened if we play him in the IND series and then he would not be weakened a week later.

You said it exactly, "extra time" to heal.  There is no time for "extra time" anymore.  The calf needs to be healed (clean MRI) and Porzingis needs to say it feels good, back in condition.  When that happens, play him.  Don't wait an extra week.  If that is the case in time for IND game 4, then play him.  No need to have him wait around for the start of the finals, no matter what the series score is at that point.

We are not that far off from the point where they will need to put him out there even if it is still sore.  Game 4 vs. IND is not that point, but game 3 of the finals might be.  And as I keep saying, based on my own history with injuries, and what is being reported, I believe that if this thing is still sore by game 4 vs. IND, there is high risk that it is going to be sore through the finals.  That is my conclusion based on the information available.  Who knows, it is medicine so it is impossible to know.  Maybe it will still be sore on May 27 (IND game 4) but all better on June 6 (Finals game 1).  It is possible, but I am not optimistic about that.

If this thing is still sore by June 6 (Finals Game 1), they you have to start trying to game it.  See how we do in the two home games.  Maybe try him game 3 and hope it can hold up for 3-5 games.  You reach a point where you will have to at least try to put him out there, kind of like Willis Reed.  It may not work out, he may end up limping back to the locker room, but it is the finals and there is simply no more window.  This is the only scenario where I am suggesting putting him out there in a condition that is less than 100%.

[Birdman]

All depends what Porzingus says about how it feels

[Neurotic Guy]

What you seem to be advocating is asking him to play in a weakened condition, instead of taking some extra time to rehab.  And, we've seen what happens when KP plays in a weakened condition.  The guy injured his ankle, and two plays later he strained his calf.  What's going to happen if, as soon as he's physically healed but still weak, he's put into a high-intensity situation?  Wouldn't that be like you running sprints on your ankle the day after the doctor said you were good to go?  How do you think that would have worked out?

I'd rather not see another Kevin Durant situation.

That it totally NOT what I am saying or anyone else is saying.  You are making an assumption that he would be weakened if we play him in the IND series and then he would not be weakened a week later.

You said it exactly, "extra time" to heal.  There is no time for "extra time" anymore.  The calf needs to be healed (clean MRI) and Porzingis needs to say it feels good, back in condition.  When that happens, play him.  Don't wait an extra week.  If that is the case in time for IND game 4, then play him.  No need to have him wait around for the start of the finals, no matter what the series score is at that point.

We are not that far off from the point where they will need to put him out there even if it is still sore.  Game 4 vs. IND is not that point, but game 3 of the finals might be.  And as I keep saying, based on my own history with injuries, and what is being reported, I believe that if this thing is still sore by game 4 vs. IND, there is high risk that it is going to be sore through the finals.  That is my conclusion based on the information available.  Who knows, it is medicine so it is impossible to know.  Maybe it will still be sore on May 27 (IND game 4) but all better on June 6 (Finals game 1).  It is possible, but I am not optimistic about that.

If this thing is still sore by June 6 (Finals Game 1), they you have to start trying to game it.  See how we do in the two home games.  Maybe try him game 3 and hope it can hold up for 3-5 games.  You reach a point where you will have to at least try to put him out there, kind of like Willis Reed.  It may not work out, he may end up limping back to the locker room, but it is the finals and there is simply no more window.  This is the only scenario where I am suggesting putting him out there in a condition that is less than 100%.

I agree.  The problem with a muscle strain/tear (I think)is that it isn’t soreness in the same way a contusion would be sore and you could be just dealing with discomfort.  A tear that’s still sore to me means that it’s vulnerable to being tweaked more seriously - ready to tear.  I think all indications need to be, as imperfect as this may be, that it’s healed.