Is D White More Valuable Than Jrue?

[Who]

Derrick White outscores Jrue Holiday 13.9ppg to 12.4ppg despite playing two fewer minutes. They both average 5.1apg. D White has a TS% of 63% compared to Jrue's 53% which is a massive difference in White's favor.

Both players are top level defensive guards. I'd give Jrue an edge over D White but both are top notch. Jrue out-rebounds D White 7.4rpg to 3.7rpg. Doubles up on him. Huge difference in Jrue's favor.

According to B-ballref.com, D White has a 3.5 BPM compared to only 1.5 for Jrue. VORP (value over replacement player) has them similar with D White ahead at 0.7 to 0.5 for Jrue.

The team is 1-2 in the 3 games D White has missed.
They are 1-1 in the 2 games Jrue has missed.

[Goldstar88]

Jrue has only played a handful of games with the C’s. White has been on the team for years. It’s going to take time for Holiday to figure things out. I expect him to look much better in the second half of the year.

[ozgod]

Looking at their Cleaning the Glass data for this season only (lies, [dang] lies and statistics I know). The orange/blue numbers show the player's percentile rank in that stat relative to their position. Positions are defined as follows:



Offensive Overview

(click to enlarge pics)


Similar usage, DW is in the 88th percentile (top 12%) among guards in Points Per Shot Attempt with 124.5 while Jrue is in the bottom 33% with 106.5. Assist rate they are about the same. DW in a higher percentile with Assist to Usage ratio as well

Shooting: Overall



Overall shooting, DW ranks in the 68th percentile or better in eFG%, 2pt% and 3pt% while Jrue is actually below median except for 3fg% where he ranks in the 60th percentile. DW also ranks higher in Assisted Rate from his shot makes (ASTD%, which is the % of times a player was assisted on made shots, at the rim, midrange and three). This suggests that DW is a better catch and shoot player or he makes less iso, or quicker decisions with the ball when he gets it.

Shooting Accuracy



More granular shooting accuracy stats...again DW ranks higher in most categories.

Defense and Rebounding



Both are great blockers for guards, ranking in the top 8% of their positions in blocked shots. Jrue is in the top 1% of guards when it comes to offensive rebounds (we have another guard in the top 1% which is PP) and Jrue is also in the 98th percentile for defensive rebounds.

There's plenty more but in the interests of not boring people I will stop 

The final stat - their salaries:

Jrue is on $36.8m this season with $39m more owed next season. He is 33
Derrick is on $18.3m this season with another $19m owed next season. He is 29

It will be interesting to see if these change once we head towards the midway point of the season and Jrue gets more acclimated.

[RodyTur10]

Derrick White outscores Jrue Holiday 13.9ppg to 12.4ppg despite playing two fewer minutes. They both average 5.1apg. D White has a TS% of 63% compared to Jrue's 53% which is a massive difference in White's favor.

Both players are top level defensive guards. I'd give Jrue an edge over D White but both are top notch. Jrue out-rebounds D White 7.4rpg to 3.7rpg. Doubles up on him. Huge difference in Jrue's favor.

According to B-ballref.com, D White has a 3.5 BPM compared to only 1.5 for Jrue. VORP (value over replacement player) has them similar with D White ahead at 0.7 to 0.5 for Jrue.

The team is 1-2 in the 3 games D White has missed.
They are 1-1 in the 2 games Jrue has missed.

The answer is yes. In fact I believe White has positioned himself as our third best player (behind Tatum and Porzingis). White is just really good on both ends. On the other hand Holiday is 33 years old. It would only be natural if he's on the decline. Don't really mind that at all if he plays within his limits. Still a very valuable experienced player.

[Kernewek]

Jrue has only played a handful of games with the C’s. White has been on the team for years. It’s going to take time for Holiday to figure things out. I expect him to look much better in the second half of the year.

Holiday has also looked great for us, especially on the intangible end. Not dissimilar to when White first arrived and was going through his shooting funk. I've been really excited about what Jrue's brought to the team so far.

Now, obviously, neither of them can hold a candle to Josh Richardson, but I think we need more than 20-odd games to see how White and Holiday compare.

[Neurotic Guy]

I’d be hard-pressed to say which is more valuable. I think Jrue has more impact on D but also takes shots I question more often. Both are players every team in the league would love to have. And the Cs have both.  It’s an easy comp if you look at the two Celtics regulars from last year that are gone - both are more valuable than Smart or Brogdon. I understand the POV that DW (or.Jrue) is more valuable than JB, but I'm not buying it.  JB scores 22ppg and hasn’t found his role quite yet.  JH and DW are more flexible - more chameleon/adaptable players than JB, but Jaylen’s offensive skills are superior.  JBs midrange shot is falling short more often this year.  If he gets back to last year’s form on the midrange, he’s elite offensively. 

[cman88]

Jrue was a 19ppg player and all-star last year as a #2 option for Milwaukee.

Id take his reduction in stats due to.

1. This roster is stacked. He doesn't have to be top 3 or even 4 on some nights. We've seen when guys were out and Joe asked him to he put up those numbers again.

2. He's new to the team and trying to fit in and find his place. White wasn't this player when he got here.

[Birdman]

Need Jru for playoff run, he will come up big

[Surferdad]

Jrue has only played a handful of games with the C’s. White has been on the team for years. It’s going to take time for Holiday to figure things out. I expect him to look much better in the second half of the year.

Came here to say exactly that.

Beyond that, I'm not sure of the value of this comparison. I'm not trading either player. The fact that they are both good on both sides of the ball shows the C's have the best starting backcourt in the NBA. (my hot take for the day)

[SHAQATTACK]

I see both as unique and not redundant at all. When opponents gang up on DW , before Smart could not be counted on to hit the jumper or go to bucket , a brick shot would result. Now if you pick on one of our guards , the other doesn’t hesitate to find a Jay open , but will hit the Jumper or attack the rim .   Unstoppable with everyone healthy

[Roy H.]

If I had to pick, I'd take Jrue, but both are vital.

[SHAQATTACK]

I like how unselfish totally team both are , and that let’s JB be the scoring machine he can be. 

[Vermont Green]

To date this season (19 games), White has been a little better, a little more valuable than Holiday.  But remember how White looked when he first got to the team.  It took him a long time before he was totally comfortable, acclimated, and achieving his full potential.  Based on the last few seasons, not just the last 19 games, I believe Holiday is the better overall player.

I will say that White just seems to keep getting better and better; more and more consistent.  At this point in their relative careers, White may have more ceiling.  Even though Holiday has been the better player the last few seasons to this point, White may be the better player moving forward, if he keep improving the way he has been.

My vote based on the 19 games to date is that they have been comparable.  White has been a little better so far but not enough so to make him definitely the better player or the more valuable player in a longer term sense.

[Vermont Green]

By the way, I like these position descriptions.  My only quibble is with what they call a forward (time at SF and PF); I would be inclined to call this a "Swing", someone like Brissett or going back a bit Marcus Morris when he was on the Celtics was a quintessential Swing Forward.

Holiday and White are both Combo guards (as were Smart and Brogdon).  Playing with two combo guards is not ideal.  The Celtics happen to have two really good, really versatile combo guards so it is working out.  But it is not ideal in my mind.  I believe more ideal is one combo guard (or point guard), 2 wings, and either a swing and a big or two bigs.  Again, we are getting by because all our individual players are so good but we again gave up more ORebs vs. PHI (15) than we got (10), even though PHI missed far more shot (51) than the Celtics did (38).  This is excluding FT misses.

On the season, we have gotten 196 ORebs and given up 210, so not a big disparity overall.  But this is trending in the wrong direction and something I believe is worth watching.  Holiday and White are both good rebounders for combo guards.  Having them both on the court has advantages, but offensive rebounding (getting them and preventing them) is not one of them.

The PHI game is a good example.  We gave up 5 extra ORebs and 4 extra TOs.  That is 9 extra possessions but still won, because we had so much more overall talent. 

[Phantom255x]

I love them both. Due to his age, I would prioritize keeping White long term here. He feels like the perfect guard and complement to the Jays.

Not to bash Smart, but he really did start to develop an ego here after 2021 and acted like he was part of a "Big 3" when that was further from the truth. Plus his defense really fell off after the DPOY season + his offensive game is just too limited.

White and Holiday are very well-rounded, unselfish 2-way players and I think having them instead of Smart has helped us a ton. I also much rather they take the open shots in the 4th as opposed to Smart, when teams go all-out to stop the Jays but leave someone else wide open. Remember the 2022 ECF Game 7 ending? Smart bricking all those shots? We're lucky Butler missed the 3 otherwise that would have been a colossal all-time choke. I feel way better having White/Holiday or even Porzingis taking a shot late in the game.

What I also love about White besides just his game is that, he feels like a calming presence. Rarely any panic or complaining from him. He settles things down, makes the little plays, and at times carries the team when nothing else works. There's probably been 5 games already where they were reeling for a time and White carried them and helped them out which led to wins. Stuff that won't always show in the box score. And remember the end of Game 6 last year in the ECF at Miami?